Owner - D20 Hobbies
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There are a number of issues with 3.5 currently. PRPG is an ambitious effort and I love it so far. But for its core purpose, it doesn't do much to fix the problems in 3.5 games.
I don't care which way these issues get settled for now, I just care that they do get settled in the core rules. Here are several questions that must be answered in PRPG to stop forum thrashing debates:
1) Monks non-proficient with Unarmed Strikes (page 28 changes):
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, ... siangham, and sling.
to:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, ... siangham, sling and unarmed strikes.
2) Monk's can take Improved Natural Attack (page 29 changes):
A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve ...
to any one of these:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells, magical effects, feats and class abilities that enhance or improve ...
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A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of anything that enhances or improves ...
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A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects but not feats or class abilities that enhance or improve ...
3) Non-Monks taking Improved Unarmed Strike don't gain the Monk Unarmed as Natural/Manufactured weapons ability (in SRD but not yet in PRPG #3):
Improved Unarmed Strike: You are considered to be armed ... In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.
to:
Improved Unarmed Strike: You are considered to be armed ... In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option. This does not allow non-Monk's to consider their unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon nor a natural weapon.
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Improved Unarmed Strike: You are considered to be armed ... In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option. This also allows non-Monk's to consider their unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon just as a Monk does.
4) Fix Gauntlets one of two ways:
Change page 29:
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would,
to:
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes (except Gauntlets since they deal damage based on your size) than a normal person would,
or
Change SRD Gauntlet definition:
A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.
to:
A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack, but is not considered an unarmed strike.
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A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack that deals damage based on your size even if your unarmed strikes deal more damage than normal (e.g Monk.)
5) Class AC Bonus stacking (page 28 changes):
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored ... He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
to:
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored ... He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load. This ability does not stack with any other class ability of the same name unless the ability specifically states it stacks with Monk AC Bonus.
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AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored ... He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load. This ability stacks with any other class ability of the same name unless the ability specifically prohibits stacking with Monk AC Bonus.
6) Unarmed Strikes as Natural Weapons (SRD weapon definition changes):
The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
to:
The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. Unarmed Strikes are considered Natural Weapons that follow Manufactured Weapon rules.
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The damage from an unarmed strike is considered manufactured weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls, but are not considered natural weapons.
7) Monk's Robes stacking with similar effects (page 192 changes):
This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus.
to:
This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus but does not stack with any other class ability of the same name (AC Bonus) unless specifically allowed.
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This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus and stack with any other class ability of the same name (AC Bonus) unless specifically prohibited.
8) Two Weapon Fighting using two Unarmed Strikes (SRD weapon definition changes):
Add one of the following:
Unarmed Strikes definition: Unarmed Strikes can be used as both the primary and secondary weapon in a Two Weapon Fighting action.
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Unarmed Strikes definition: Unarmed Strikes can not be used as both the primary and secondary weapon in a Two Weapon Fighting action.
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Two Weapon Fighting definition: Unarmed Strikes can be used as both the primary and secondary weapon in a Two Weapon Fighting action.
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Two Weapon Fighting definition: Unarmed Strikes can not be used as both the primary and secondary weapon in a Two Weapon Fighting action.
1) Monks non-proficient with Unarmed Strikes (page 28 changes):
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, ... siangham, and sling.
to:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, ... siangham, sling and unarmed strikes.
Generally, I agree that some things need clarification (especially the TWF + monk unarmed strike thing).
However, for #1 I'd prefer to see wording somewhere that says "All creatures are proficient with unarmed strikes" (which I believe is the intent) rather than making an exception in the monk entry.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'd prefer to see wording somewhere that says "All creatures are proficient with unarmed strikes" (which I believe is the intent) rather than making an exception in the monk entry.
I'd agree with that line of thinking.
I believed that a Class Acts column did resolve this. For TWF a monk counts his standard attacks and flurry as a primary attack and gains an additional off hand attack as per the feat. the attack could be an unarmed strike or a weapon. the appropriate TWF penalties apply to all attacks as standard. The feats that build upon TWF would work the same way.
I don't really see where all the problem about unarmed strike was.
I agree, but Class Acts/Sage/Ask Wizards/FAQ are all decried as "not RAW" by players who cause these problems.
Nothing is harmed by adding these clarifications and everything is to be gained.
I believed that a Class Acts column did resolve this. For TWF a monk counts his standard attacks and flurry as a primary attack and gains an additional off hand attack as per the feat. the attack could be an unarmed strike or a weapon. the appropriate TWF penalties apply to all attacks as standard. The feats that build upon TWF would work the same way.
We both know it works, and yet there's still that dumb line that says: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." Just get rid of it already...
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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There is no such thing as a rule that will prevent arguments.
Not sure I agree there, clearing up simple issues like what I suggested will block a huge number of issues that have people advocating different interpretations.
In other words, clear up ambiguities and you stop arguments.
Have any of you actually had an argument about this at the gaming table?
Most folks tend to follow common sense about things- and as such arguments as these tend to only crop up on message boards.
Not saying they don't need clarifying: I'm just curious if you guys encounter actual players arguing this stuff or just pixellated people who like to argue.
Haven't read through all your suggestions yet, but the first one can easily be cleared up right in the combat text -
All creatures are considered proficient with their natural weapons. In the case of humanoids, or any creature with limbs capable of weilding weapons, Unarmed Attacks are considered to be using natural weapons.
The fact that someone doesn't know how to use their own hand is just kinda weird.
EDIT: I see several people already adressed this - sorry.
I think the 'Monk Robes' problem can be aleviated simply by saying that any item with a class name in its title does stack with class abilities. This is similar to the problem that existed with races not being proficient with their racial weapons.
Common sense is all well and good, but I've met quite a few RPG players with Int 18, Wis 3 -- much better to spell everything out for those types.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Have any of you actually had an argument about this at the gaming table?
Yes, these issues have came up during home games.
Haven't read through all your suggestions yet, but the first one can easily be cleared up right in the combat text -
I think the 'Monk Robes' problem can be aleviated simply by saying that any item with a class name in its title does stack with class abilities.
The suggestion you say can be cleared up in the combat text was added to the combat text after this thread was created. At least that is what I was told when I spoke with the Lead Designer at the Paizo booth (@Origins) about this thread.
Can you explain the Monk Robes comment you made? How does that fix the problem?
I believed that a Class Acts column did resolve this. For TWF a monk counts his standard attacks and flurry as a primary attack and gains an additional off hand attack as per the feat. the attack could be an unarmed strike or a weapon. the appropriate TWF penalties apply to all attacks as standard. The feats that build upon TWF would work the same way.We both know it works, and yet there's still that dumb line that says: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." Just get rid of it already...
Actually, from a mechanics perspective, that line kind of has a good reason to be there. Flurry is basically already an improved version of TWF (the monk gets their regular attacks, then one or more bonus attacks in addtion).
Allowing a single character to use both could become very, very abusive.
For example, Greater Flurry + Greater Two Weapon Fighting + Haste/Speed means 9 attacks in a single round, 5 of which are at the highest attack bonus. Combine that with almost any sort of +damage (Bard singing, magic items, ward cestas, whatever) and you've got a blender of doom.
I always thought the rule was in effect that no character can get more than 6 attacks per round from any combination of abilities or effects unless hasted, in which case he gets 7 (I am assuming we are commparing level 20 monks using flurry of blows to a level 20 warrior class using two weapon fighting feats). The exception to this is greater 2 weapon fighting, which would provide 7 unhasted or 8 hasted, and perfect 2 weapon fighting, which could provide 8 (4 with each main and offhand per round) plus ONE more for haste, which would make 9. Flurry of blows is part of a different school of fighting style, and has it's own benefits - for example, when using flurry of blows you get your FULL STR bonus on EACH attack, with two weapon fighting you only get full STR bonus for your primary weapon, but you get more attacks with the higher level TWF feats.
Agreed, a thousand times, agreed.
Also, in the process of clarifying whether Monks (anyone really) can TWF with just their unarmed strikes or not, if it is (hopefully) decided that they can, then I would like to go ahead and point out a further point that would need to be clarified.
What about creatures that would go the Multi-Weapon-Fighting route instead of TWF? One of the arguments against allowing TWF with just unarmed strikes is that even if humanoids and other non-MWF creatures were just limited to two unarmed strikes, MWF creatures could potentially abuse this and get infinite attacks.
I'm of the opinion that this is a rather absurd take, that MWF creatures would only get exactly as many extra unarmed strikes as they'd have weapons. I.e., a Marilith has six arms and can attack with six different weapons; she therefore would be able to make six unarmed strikes with only MWF. If she had IMWF, she'd get twelve unarmed strikes. Hardly infinite.
So if Pathfinder clarifies this in the affirmative, let's hope they also remember the Multi-Weapon-Fighting rules.
...The Wizard is the only character class which isn't proficient in all simple weapons...
Uh... Druid?...
Just saying.
Personally, I think ALL character classes should be proficient with simple weapons. That would take care of it, too. Moreover, it'd get rid of a lot of excess verbage.Save that we need to preserve the Wizard's exalted status as the worse in standard combat. The Wizard is the only character class which isn't proficient in all simple weapons.... and it should stay that way.
I have no problem with a wizard having all simple weapons proficiency. They have plenty of other ways to suck in combat.
One of my characters is a duskblade and they get all martial weapons; no mention of simple weapons at all. My DM ruled that since all martial weapons and no simple weapons was stupid and he didn't run a stupid game, the duskblade had proficiency.
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One of my characters is a duskblade and they get all martial weapons; no mention of simple weapons at all. My DM ruled that since all martial weapons and no simple weapons was stupid and he didn't run a stupid game, the duskblade had proficiency.
Yeah, that one's also fixed in the PHB2 errata file. Thanks again, WotC proofreading.
The druid, monk and wizard do not have simple weapon proficiency, though in the cases of the druid and monk, they have more than enough martial or exotic proficiencies to make up for this.
Actually, from a mechanics perspective, that line kind of has a good reason to be there. Flurry is basically already an improved version of TWF (the monk gets their regular attacks, then one or more bonus attacks in addtion).
But the official FAQ says that a monk can use TWF with his fists.
The line should be clarified to say something like: "A monk can make an unarmed strike as a primary attack with any part of his body. Similarly, a monk using two-weapon fighting make an unarmed strike as an 'off-hand' attack with any part of his body."
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In our games we always interpreted it as Monks don't do TWF. Attacking with two weapons is a full round action and so is a Flurry of Blows, two separate actions.
And the idea that monks have no off-hand is also a benefit in the sense that full strength mod applies to all damage rolls in the flurry of blows.
In our games we always interpreted it as Monks don't do TWF. Attacking with two weapons is a full round action and so is a Flurry of Blows, two separate actions.
That's a perfectly reasonable interpretation (even though the FAQ interprets it differently), but a much clearer way to state that would be something like: "Monks can't combine unarmed strikes or a flurry of blows with two-weapon fighting."
Last I checked Monk AC bonus was n insight bonus. No bonuses stack except for Dodge and unnamed.
Most of these issues are implicitly stated, or are stated generally in other sections of the SRD. Either that, or I naturally understand these connotations without explicit wording.
Go figure.
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Last I checked Monk AC bonus was n insight bonus. No bonuses stack except for Dodge and unnamed.
Then you obviously didn't check. According to the PHB, the SRD and Alpha 3, the monk's AC bonus is an unnamed bonus.
Most of these issues are implicitly stated, or are stated generally in other sections of the SRD. Either that, or I naturally understand these connotations without explicit wording.Go figure.
I'm just gonna let this one go. Others, unfortunately, lack your vast understanding and would like additional clarification in the final rules.
Strange, my PHB reads:
...gains her wisdom modifier as an insight bonus to AC ...
Not to mention the fact that in the MM, ALL humanoids are proficient with simple weapons.
1-HD humanoids give up their racial HD to take their first class level. When they do so, they also give up the benefits from their racial Hit Dice.
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I believe that the AC bonus being referenced is the unnamed bonus that the monk gets for progressing in the class, not the Wis mod to AC thing they get.
Under the Monk class I see neither listed as an Insight Bonus... both are un-named.. unless I am missing it..
If it is an Insight bonus can some one point that out to me?.. I might be missing it..
1. Make unarmed strikes = simple weapons.
2. Make monks proficient with all simple weapons, and the light flail (nunchaku). Eliminate the "kama"; all it is is a sickle (simple weapon).
3. Monks can flurry with any weapon with which they are proficient.
I've always houseruled that the Wis bonus to AC is an Insight bonus, and that the level bonus is a Dodge bonus. Neither of these appear in the RAW, but for the most part I dislike using "untyped" bonuses when an existing type seems to apply.