I've been reading George R. R. Martin, Glen Cook, and Robert E. Howard almost exclusively. Salvatore isn't bad, but his books are a tad on the predictable side.If you're reading these you need to pick up Steven Erikson's books. Gardens of the Moon is the first one, I think.Steerpike is right. Steven Eriksons "Malazan Book of the Fallen" series reads like the lovechild of A Song of ice and Fire and The Black Company books.
Grim and Gritty military Fantasy with lots of High Magic. A cast of thousands. Beloved Characters die frequently. A deep, well thought out history that slowly unveils throughout the books. A plot that will span 10 books (and no more than 10 books!).
As much as I love G.R.R. Martin, in contrast to him, Steven Erikson delivers the Books on time and not 1-2 years later.
Haha, seriously? I bought Gardens of the Moon just the other day and plan on reading it once I finish my KULL collection of stories from REH, and the Silver Spike from Glen Cook. Still, it's very interesting that you guys also mentioned the Black Company books, as I absolutely LOVE those, although I have only read the 3 books of the north so far.
Also, now that I think about it, we always called DARK SUN just that, I dont' think any of my friends ever asked if we could "Play D&D tonight after class", it was always "Let's go play some Dark Sun!"
So Realms fans, I hear your cries of outrage and despair, and if anything good can be taken from this event, I would say that it would be that WotC doesn't repeat the same mistake with its other campaign settings that are planned for conversion to 4E. I would love a 4E book for Dark Sun.......as long as it didn't have paladins, bearded, dwarves, and trustworthy elves.
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Do not forget that Forgotten Realms is a well known brand name!
There are many FR fans out there who do not even ply FRPs but just read the books.
So WoC maybe thought it was a good idea to keep the brand name Forgotten Realms and change the rest to fit the new game rules and fluff.
I did play in the setting a long time ago, but these days I'm one of those folks who pretty much only reads the FR books. At least I was. The changes being made, and the way they've been handled, has turned me off of FR novels. I plan to purchase the last book in the Twilight War Trilogy and that's it.
I think they've fired a lot of loyal and free-spending actual fans in order to get some potential fans who might be as loose with their wallet or very minimalistic in their spending.I might remember things wrong, or see them in the wrong context, but I think that the serious spenders and collectors usually...
Chalk me up for another of those higher-spending types (at least until I bought a house and my spending was curtailed somewhat) that has no interest in the "new and improved" Realms. I had almost every book from the time Forgotten Realms started until I took a break from about '97 to '03. When I got back into gaming I went back and collected a bunch of older books.
This "new and improved" Realms just sounds so far away from what made the Realms fun that I have no particular interest in checking it out. I'll stick with my own campaign world and the Pathfinder campaign world for gaming purposes, and for fiction purposes I think I'll just avoid gaming based fiction unless Paizo starts a Golarion novel division.
Wesley SnipesIsn't he in prison?
Eddy Murphy could play Jarlaxle...
Hey in that line of thought, Why not just use Marlon Wayns again and then we can has a full trifecta of crap D&D movies (Though the second one was alot better than the first. Who ever made that one had at least read the players handbook).
but my gut tells me that fans of the Forgotten Realms are fans BECAUSE of the various elements that make it different from the rest of D&D. Rebuilding the Forgotten Realms to appease those who aren't fans seems backwards and self-destructive.I was a FR fan and I can confirm that in my case, this is true. Instead of making something new and staying loyal to their fans, they did it bass ackwards and made the Realm 100% Vanilla 4e so more new people would buy into it.
The problem is that the Realms were pretty unique in a lot of ways, but not any more. While those who didn't like those parts could have easily been satisfied with another setting, those who loved them now have nothing.
Yeah, I got pretty sick of listening to people complain about FR. If you don't like the setting then don't freaking play it! FR should never have been crammed into 4E's little box. It's ruined it in My oppinion, and I will not be supporting it again (Unless they do some DC universe Continuity split that fixes this mess!)
But then again... Eilistraee is (I won't say was!) my favorite FR deity, so what do I know?
Vhaeraun here, so it's pretty close (them being Twins and all that).
Mine is Mystra (As well as her Chosen of whom they have been killing off like flies!)
Do not forget that Forgotten Realms is a well known brand name!
There are many FR fans out there who do not even ply FRPs but just read the books.
So WoC maybe thought it was a good idea to keep the brand name Forgotten Realms and change the rest to fit the new game rules and fluff.
If I was reading a book series that got fragged like this, I would drop it like it's on fire! It's why I stopped reading Michael Moorecock.
Yeah, I got pretty sick of listening to people complain about FR. If you don't like the setting then don't freaking play it!
*cough4Ecough*
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Yeah, I got pretty sick of listening to people complain about FR. If you don't like the setting then don't freaking play it!*cough4Ecough*
David, are you implying that the designers of 4e didn't like FR, so they blew it up and remade it in their own image?
I like the Realms for its myriad of gods and how they take notice a lot in the affairs of mortals.
Did they sink Mulhorand in the new FR?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Blackdragon,
With the twins and all, do you think the concept of the 'Masked lady' in the first book would be an interesting development? It seems to me that this was what would be a new path for Eilistraee that was interesting. Redemption, even if they have to be tricked into it.
Yeah, I got pretty sick of listening to people complain about FR. If you don't like the setting then don't freaking play it!*cough4Ecough*David, are you implying that the designers of 4e didn't like FR, so they blew it up and remade it in their own image?
I like the Realms for its myriad of gods and how they take notice a lot in the affairs of mortals.
Did they sink Mulhorand in the new FR?
Actually I just thought the quote from Blackdragon about being tired of Anti-FR people was humorous, him (you're a him, right dragon?) being pretty anti-4E. Maybe my humor is too subtle (or just not funny).
As for the FR designers, perhaps a bit of it WAS a feeling of "put our own mark on it". I can't really speak for them for sure though.
I like most of the changes they've made, although I wasn't a serious FR fan, just buying a small handful of books (I have 3E's campaign setting, and one or two player's guides ... maybe a gods or monster books too).
Mulhorand ... is that the place that blew up?
Either way, at least one person on this thread is interested in picking up the 4E FRCS.
Cheers! :)
It's why I stopped reading Michael Moorecock.
What happened there?
Just... amazing. Just absolutely amazing. So all the "good drow" now get heavy brown skin? Wow, that is offensive on so many levels, that is not even funny anymore.
If I remember right the Drow were originally a brown skin color and after their banishment was cursed by Corellon Larethian. They then became black skinned because they turned away from the light. This is why they are called dark elves now. I do not see this as offensive. I see this as a way of opening up “good drow” for players and still keep the “evil drow” in play. I personally was tired of the Dritz clones and then having to worry “Well he is Drow but because of this one famous example we should stop and be nice.”
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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If I remember right the Drow were originally a brown skin color and after their banishment was cursed by Corellon Larethian. They then became black skinned because they turned away from the light. This is why they are called dark elves now. I do not see this as offensive. I see this as a way of opening up “good drow” for players and still keep the “evil drow” in play. I personally was tired of the Dritz clones and then having to worry “Well he is Drow but because of this one famous example we should stop and be nice.”Just... amazing. Just absolutely amazing. So all the "good drow" now get heavy brown skin? Wow, that is offensive on so many levels, that is not even funny anymore.
Problem here is: Even if that may be so, this is not how this looks to the outside observer. I don't see what the palette change achieves, but cause trouble.
In addition, I don't see how this reduces the "Drizzt" factor, other than giving it even more of an official stamp of approval. But anyway... even if (if!) this was a an ok idea, it still is a really rotten development storywise, at least in my honest opinion. It takes an interesting (even though easily chliche) aspect of "Drow Lore", and writes it right out of the world in favor of clear-cut delineations.
If I remember right the Drow were originally a brown skin color and after their banishment was cursed by Corellon Larethian.
I thought that drow used to be identical to normal elfs until the split.
They then became black skinned because they turned away from the light. This is why they are called dark elves now. I do not see this as offensive.
I can see where people could get racist implications from this change. The darker skinned elfs are the evil ones. Maybe it is because I'm in Louisiana, but I see discrimination between light and dark skinned people on a daily basis, with the darker skinned people as the 'discriminatees'.
If I remember right the Drow were originally a brown skin color and after their banishment was cursed by Corellon Larethian.I thought that drow used to be identical to normal elfs until the split.
I can see where people could get racist implications from this change. The darker skinned elfs are the evil ones. Maybe it is because I'm in Louisiana, but I see discrimination between light and dark skinned people on a daily basis, with the darker skinned people as the 'discriminatees'.
They then became black skinned because they turned away from the light. This is why they are called dark elves now. I do not see this as offensive.
I'd heard this too at one point, with the implication (given to me by the story teller) that this angle was dropped precisely because TSR considered is too easily construed as rascist. If they're bringing it back down, it would seem to be something to appease long time FR fans (since a more casual fan probably would never know) but it looks like it isn't working out so well for them (the idea sounds fine to me, if the origin story is true ... a curse finally lifted, a people redeemed, although the devils in the details ...)
All that aside though, where in LA are you at dop? I'm down in New Orleans. Us southerners have to stick together! :)
Yeah, I got pretty sick of listening to people complain about FR. If you don't like the setting then don't freaking play it!*cough4Ecough*
I'm not playing 4E, but I would have still bought the FR novels.
Blackdragon,
With the twins and all, do you think the concept of the 'Masked lady' in the first book would be an interesting development? It seems to me that this was what would be a new path for Eilistraee that was interesting. Redemption, even if they have to be tricked into it.
I think it had alot more possibility that what they ended up with. In my game, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are actually working together against Lolth.
It's why I stopped reading Michael Moorecock.What happened there?
In book six (Stormbringer) Elric was killed at the end of the book by the sword, and the world was remade into our current world and Stormbringer became the devil. It was written to be the end of the series, but Moorecock kept writing books, setting them back in time before the last book. The series lost something when you know how it's going to end. I think 8 was the last book I've read.
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David, are you implying that the designers of 4e didn't like FR, so they blew it up and remade it in their own image?
My younger brother, who runs an FR campaign, seems to think that the reason for the whole "nuke the realms" move was that Greenwood was pissing of WotC and so this was a "well, take that Ed" move.
In book six (Stormbringer) Elric was killed at the end of the book by the sword, and the world was remade into our current world and Stormbringer became the devil. It was written to be the end of the series, but Moorcock kept writing books, setting them back in time before the last book. The series lost something when you know how it's going to end. I think 8 was the last book I've read.It's why I stopped reading Michael Moorecock.What happened there?
If memory serves, Stormbringer was actually the second Elric book to be published, not the sixth.
If memory serves, Stormbringer was actually the second Elric book to be published, not the sixth.In book six (Stormbringer) Elric was killed at the end of the book by the sword, and the world was remade into our current world and Stormbringer became the devil. It was written to be the end of the series, but Moorcock kept writing books, setting them back in time before the last book. The series lost something when you know how it's going to end. I think 8 was the last book I've read.It's why I stopped reading Michael Moorecock.What happened there?
In the series that I have Stormbringer is number 6 acording to the numbering on the spine of the books.
The series lost something when you know how it's going to end.
Like the 4gotten realms, then?
The series lost something when you know how it's going to end.Like the 4gotten realms, then?
Well, when i read that Lolth was still a deity in 4E, I knew that this book series ended badly. I guess I'm a damn fool for buying it to see how bad.
It's like waiting for the last Twilight War book, knowing that the Shades are never driven out of Selgaunt. :(
The series lost something when you know how it's going to end.Like the 4gotten realms, then?Well, when i read that Lolth was still a deity in 4E, I knew that this book series ended badly. I guess I'm a damn fool for buying it to see how bad.
It's like waiting for the last Twilight War book, knowing that the Shades are never driven out of Selgaunt. :(
I know I should have tagged this with a spolier, but given that WotC didn't seem to care if they ruined it for everyone, Why should I?
In the series that I have Stormbringer is number 6 acording to the numbering on the spine of the books.
Check out the copyright dates in each of the books in the series that you have. The 'end of the world' problem that you have with the books occurred earlier in real world time that you probably realize. The group of books that you have has been laid out according to story chronology not real world publishing chronology.
Hey in that line of thought, Why not just use Marlon Wayns again and then we can has a full trifecta of crap D&D movies (Though the second one was alot better than the first. Who ever made that one had at least read the players handbook).Wesley SnipesIsn't he in prison?
Eddy Murphy could play Jarlaxle...
Does that mean the elf from the first movie was really a drow?
Did they sink Mulhorand in the new FR?
No, they just let it be taken over by a race of dragon men. Okay, so when it was a fantasy Egypt, it was different, something with a flavor all its own -- but really, who wants different? :P
Add me in with the "What the heck did you do to the Realms, WoTC?" crowd.
Interesting that you brought that up. When we ran the Dark Sun material in Dragon and Dungeon, the fan reaction was INCREDIBLY educational to me. The content we ran in Dungeon was, I felt, less disruptive than the content we ran in Dragon, and the adventure and monsters and gazetteer were done in the spirit of the setting. But the Dragon half of things was, in my opinion, a failure as a conversion of a setting. Yet at the same point, it was incredibly educational and informative to me, at least, and proved to me that if you're going to do something with an established setting... do it for the fans. Don't use it as an attempt to win MORE fans into the setting by turning it into something it's not. You'd be wiser to spend your efforts and resources just letting the old setting go and focusing your energy on creating a NEW setting that plays to the strengths and needs of what you want to do.
Yes, this exactly. I agree with you 100%, Mister Jacobs.
So Drow who start abandoning their racially-mandated cruelty and evil now start changing color? So anyone in their vicinity who has any doubts whatsover can just light a match and check? Well, it makes for less converts. But this can't really be how they spin this, right? I mean... i would not put much past them anymore. Please tell me there is another explanation.
I believe the change in skin color is because all the drow who went fro black to brown are "uncorrupted" drow who don't have any demon blood in their veins, no matter how many generations removed.
So they weren't black because they were evil, they were black because they had unclean blood. No problem... :P
Personally, I just plain like the idea I had, that the drow always had black skin and had once been more attuned to daylight and heat (the main drow kingdom on Faerun was located at about the equator), which is why being cursed to hate and be sickened by the light was such a big loss for them.