Actually, I am thinking about removing the AoO provoking for moving past/towards an enemy.
Sure, some stuff must be redesigned (tumble & mobility f.e.), but it will speed up the game MUCH.
Maybe we could introduce "Get past an opponent" as a new Combat Maneuver (similar or added to overrun maybe)
I guess I don't need to explicate that the spiked chain is far too good compared to other reach weapons and, combined with an optimized build, not far from game breaking.
Brother, don't even get me started about the stupid, freaking spiked chain. D'oh! Too late!
1) From a simulationist view, it's just crazy dumb! No such weapon ever existed.
2) It's a video game weapon! God of War anyone? Buehler? OK. I *like* video games, but why stop with just a single OTT video game weapons? Why not make a whole bunch of them, like triple-bladed sword in The Sword & The Sorceror (a movie from the mid-80's - heh heh, "Talon, son of Richard" indeed ;^)?
My point? That realistic weapons & cartoony weapons shouldn't meet unless the cartoony ones are distinctly special, and there's more than just *one* of them.
My 2 coppers.
- FM
The spiked chain as its illustrated in the PHB is about as retarded of a weapon as trying to tie together a couple of hedge trimmers to use as a pair of nunchaku.
The spiked chain as it is illustrated in almost every other illustration is perfectly serviceable and did exist as a weapon, especially if you simply removed the "spiked" part and reduce it to bludgeoning only, although peircing variations did exist, but those were a spike at the end rather than along the edge.
As for God of War, those would specifically be dual wielded Kusari-Gama, not spiked chains, and either way, the 3.0 Spiked Chain appeared several years before God of War did. Forgive me, but I am rather intolerant of the "bringing anime/video game into D&D makes it suck" argument, especially when the specific example is incorrect.
For the most part, the problem with the spiked chain is that it is actually one of the few "good" weapons, in that it allows a "specialist" character to do their job effectively. Similar to a power attack crit build using a falchion, greataxe, or scythe. Or a finesse crit build using a rapier or scimitar. The rest of the swords seem lackluster because they fall in the middle range, but they can serve quite well in the hands of a "general specialist". The spiked chain is better than these because of the requirement to take a feat to use it proficiently.
Its all the other exotic weapons being subpar that is the problem to me. If they were brought to a more reasonable power level for the supposed dificulty in using them, the spiked chain would loose much of its "omgtehbrokenzorz" reputation.
I think a MAJOR distinction needs to be made regarding exotic weapon proficiency. Is the weapon considered exotic because it comes from an exotic land, or because it is actually difficult to use effectively?
In my games, I use a simple tiered non-proficiency penalty system, and the Critical Fumble deck. Anytime a person uses a weapon without proficiency, their "fumble range" is equal to the penalty they take. For an easy example without getting into details, a rogue trying to get fancy with a spiked chain fumbles on a 4 or lower.
Reach is also hardly an issue. I could take Short Haft instead of Exotic Weapon Proficiency and cause just as much trouble with a Ranseur.
My plea to paizo: Pick a "direction" with exotic weapon proficiency and stick with it: cultural OR complexity, not both. Rebalance weapons accordingly, so that the feat is worth spending in each weapons case, rather than just a few.
Ug, late nights, vitrol rising. Not attacking you in specific Forever Man, I enjoy your insights on these boards. I think I just need sleep. Logging off.
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Here's a simple solution to the spiked chain issue.
Give a penalty to *anyone* using a range melee weapon of -2 (or -5, or what have you), when using the weapon at range. That goes for longspears, polearms, whips, etc.
I say this having seen a lot of longspear/spiked gauntlet combinations in my game ... I may have even been guilty of playing one myself ...
Eh, I had a mistaken recollection of Short Haft's benefit. Personally, I'd just make Short Haft not have a limit, which would equalize it to exotic weapon prof: spiked chain.
I also think the 3 section staff should be capable of being used at reach. And also as a double weapon. Course, I also think the spiked chain should be able to be used as a double weapon.
Regarding applying a penalty, I could see it on the spiked chain as a balance factor, because long reach swings have higher likelyhood of missing or rebounding back into your face. So the penalty might be a solid mechanic for the spiked chain. But I disagree with it on solid hafted weapons, for which reach use is the "optimal" use of the weapon. I just dont see taking a penalty and "optimal" meshing well, in my mind.
Ooooh, what if the "fancy" abilities of more powerful weapons were only unlockable by taking a feat, say "Advanced Weapon Manuvers" or such? Then you have the opportunity cost for spiked chain reach.
On second thought, it seems kind of pointless, there aren't enough weapons with good enough secondary abilities to make the feat worthwhile, and giving all the rest secondary abilities would require more work than its probably worth.
Brother, don't even get me started about the stupid, freaking spiked chain. D'oh! Too late!
...why stop with just a single OTT video game weapons? Why not make a whole bunch of them, like triple-bladed sword in The Sword & The Sorceror (a movie from the mid-80's - heh heh, "Talon, son of Richard" indeed ;^)?
- FM
Just remember, if we introduce the triple-bladed sword, one blade has to fire out like a rocket on a string and thunk into trees! That's essential. :)
Thread jack time: Some years ago, I remembered that movie, Sword and the Sorceror, and told my wife I recalled it from my childhood as the most awesome low budget fantasy movie ever made. In support of my nerd-dom, she bought me a copy. We sat down to watch it -- I was all excited to be excited once more -- and we just wound up HOWLING with laughter. Oh. My. God. Was that movie BAD. I've never been so embarassed-happy in my life.
/END threadjack
Ooooh, what if the "fancy" abilities of more powerful weapons were only unlockable by taking a feat, say "Advanced Weapon Manuvers" or such? Then you have the opportunity cost for spiked chain reach.
Good idea. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the exotic weapon category altogether, anyone with martial proficiency can use any weapon, but to use a weapons special ability you have to take the feat. Sort of like the stunts from the Exotic Weapon Master PrC from CW.
Meaning no offense, but isn't that the same, in the end, as taking Exotic Weap Prof? Either way, to use the weapon properly (i.e., with all of its abilities), you take a feat. It's a different flavor perhaps, but the mechanical benefit is exactly the same.
Honestly, I've only ever seen one person use a spiked chain--me. We were low level, and though my cleric had Improved Trip, she wasn't terribly game breaking--and got totally hosed one time when she fought a high strength fighter who could overcome her trip attempts. I guess I can see where problems can come up, but I don't understand why it's such a big thing. Seems like there should be ways of shutting it down sometimes--throw the character up against a bunch of high strength dwarves who also have improved trip and see how they like it then. As my husband says, anything a player uses opens the field for the DM using the same...and usually better. (I am not advocating shutting it down all the time--allow the player some benefit from those feats and such!)
And, FWIW, I like the idea of renaming "exotic" weapons to (insert cool name that means "weapons requiring more training"). A dwarven waraxe isn't really exotic because it's dwarven, it's exotic because it's heavier than a normal axe and requires more training--training that is provided to any dwarf trained in martial weapons because of cultural standards. (On a separate note, this would go to taking special monk weapons off the exotic list since, as other posters in other threads have pointed out, a kama equals a sickle and other such things.)
I'm playing in a core-only 3.5e game right now as a Fighter-type using a Spiked Chain. Honestly, it's the only reason I get to shine next to the Rogue (skills and SA), Cleric (rez, healing, spells), and Wizard (spells, spells, spells).
I've tried to abuse it as far as I can go. Large size inducing belt (I snap it on and we call it "going Inukchuk"), Improved Trip, etc.
Honestly, even with all my bonuses, here's the things I've experienced in the properly designed and run encounters:
- I'm barely capable of tripping the people I need to face. Most of the things I *need* to fight (as in, get the attention of or get in the way of), are the big creatures that could kill the rest of the group in one full attack action.
Giants, Mammoths, Glabrezu, etc. These things are hard to Trip even with my slew of bonuses.
- My reach basically allows me to access more creatures at a time, meaning I have more freedom on how I protect my friends, or get to reach the critical target more easily.
Also, I can go "toe to toe" (so to speak) against very big creatures without being clobbered by Attacks of Opportunities all the time.
Meaning... I don't force the cleric to heal just trying to position.
- Any decent encounter will have terrain and multi-creature problems that make it so I rarely get to use my full attack even WITH the reach. Sure, I can take down people around me nicely... but when the archers are up in the tower or on a cliff, or the cleric is at a different part of the room than the melee's I'm trying to prevent reaching my squishy friends... a lot of my attacks come up in "move + attack" in combat.
- Reach benefits more than just myself. Since I can technically threaten a much larger area.. the Rogue is capable of getting flanking done much more often. He gets Sneak Attack damage because I'm there.
I've spent some fights doing nothing but move into a threatening position so that the Rogue could tumble up and take down the enemy with a nice roll on his Sneak Attack.
I didn't do the damage myself, but teamwork + spiked chain made it happen.
...
Honestly, I hope Spike Chain isn't changed much in Pathfinder. It's a very useful tool for a Fighter that would like to have some battlefield control.
If anything, I'd prefer seeing MORE weapons have capabilities like this with a feat cost. Spear fighting is one style of combat that hasn't seen a decent exposure in D&D.
Unlike many weapons though, it gives no bonuses to disarm or trip (it can just be used as a trip weapon). Unlike most Martial weapons (and any Exotic weapons that aren't just a foreign weapon), they actually have low damage (2d4, 20/x2).
I personally hate rolling d4s. It takes being a Large size to even get to 2d6 (which a Greatsword does WITHOUT a feat and enlarged).
No idea where you are getting "damage" from, since it's fairly weak compared to anything in the equivalent range (two handed Martial+).
The spiked chain as its illustrated in the PHB is about as retarded of a weapon as trying to tie together a couple of hedge trimmers to use as a pair of nunchaku.
We are in agreement there.
The spiked chain as it is illustrated in almost every other illustration is perfectly serviceable and did exist as a weapon, especially if you simply removed the "spiked" part and reduce it to bludgeoning only, although peircing variations did exist, but those were a spike at the end rather than along the edge.
Really? I haven't seen one that I can think of, and *most* of the more esoteric, eastern, martial chain-weapons are NOT reach weapons! The only one that is, as far as I know, the KYOKETSU SHOGE, aka the Steel Blade Hook and Chain, is well . . . silly, and by no means can anyone weild one in such a manner as to increase or reduce such a weapons reach as a free action; because these weapons, as they are swung in great circles, are wrapped around the weilders torso or neck or limbs - as part of swinging the business end around. An impractical weapon which cannot be used in close quarters at all and has a better place in a martial art demonstration than it does a battlefield. Furthermore, no way do any of these flimsy chain weapon come within 50% of the impact power of a heavy mace. I challenge you, good sir knight, to prove otherwise! ;^) Set your helm on pole & whack at it all you like with a whip-chain or a mankirigusari. I doubt you'd even put a dent in it. When you get bored with that, smite your helm once with a mace. We both now it won't take more than one blow to dent your helmet! ;^D
Forgive me, but I am rather intolerant of the "bringing anime/video game into D&D makes it suck" argument,
Actually, I don't agree with that argument either. I'm only a simulationist insofar as when fantasy defies common sense. My problem with the spiked chain is that its the only weapon of its kind. Fine, forget practicality - let's say the weapon responds psychokinetically to its weilder, which, IMHO, better explains its perfomance compared to every other weapon in the game. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with, again, is that it's the only "super" weapon with more capabilities than just about any other in the game. That's not good even from a video game perspective. Good video games have *lots* of cool, unusual weapons. D&D (etc) should be any different.
For the most part, the problem with the spiked chain is that it is actually one of the few "good" weapons, in that it allows a "specialist" character to do their job effectively. Similar to a power attack crit build using a falchion, greataxe, or scythe. Or a finesse crit build using a rapier or scimitar. The rest of the swords seem lackluster because they fall in the middle range, but they can serve quite well in the hands of a "general specialist". The spiked chain is better than these because of the requirement to take a feat to use it proficiently.
I do, however, agree with you about the nature of exotic. Since the monk class is entirely inspired from eastern mysticism, I think eastern, or asian, weapons (etc) should no longer be considered "exotic," and that Pathfinder arbitrate from both east & west a single fantasy culture that is independent of either of them. Exotic weapons therefore, should be exoteric in there use, or be of a superior category than simple or martial weapons, and represent a higher level of martial ability.
What do you think?
- FM