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The following numbers assume a Constitution of 16. Since many Barbarians advance only their strength score, we’re going to assume that remains a constant for the basis of comparison.
3.5 Barbarian
1st Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 8 rounds
4th Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 16 rounds
8th Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 24 rounds
12th Level – Rage +6 Strength and Constitution for 36 rounds
16th Level – Rage +6 Strength and Constitution for 45 rounds
20th Level – Rage +8 Strength and Constitution for 60 rounds.
Pathfinder Barbarian
1st Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 7 rounds
4th Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 22 rounds
8th Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 42 rounds
12th Level – Rage +6 Strength and Constitution for 31 rounds
16th Level – Rage +6 Strength and Constitution for 41 rounds
20th Level – Rage +8 Strength and Constitution for 25 rounds (2 rage points remain)
Variant – As Pathfinder but Greater and Mighty Rage cost 1 rage point/round
1st Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 7 rounds
4th Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 22 rounds
8th Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 42 rounds
12th Level – Rage +6 Strength and Constitution for 62 rounds
16th Level – Rage +6 Strength and Constitution for 82 rounds
20th Level – Rage +8 Strength and Constitution for 102 rounds
Analysis
Because Rage is not limited to a certain number of times each day in Pathfinder (it could be 1 round or 10 rounds at a time, assuming enough rage points) it can provide more benefit. At 1st level, even though it is one fewer total round compared to 3.5, a Pathfinder Barbarian may be able to use that over 3 or 4 encounters. If that is the case, the Pathfinder Barbarian doesn’t compare too unfavorably even at 12th or 16th level and is much better at 8th level. However, at 20th level the 3.5 Barbarian is clearly superior.
Because Rage Points are multiplied by barbarian level, Constitution is much more important to the Pathfinder Barbarian than the 3.5 Barbarian. Increasing the Constitution from 16 to 20 would have added (level x2 Rage Points). At 20th level, even with the 4/round to maintain a Mighty Rage, this would equate to another 10 rounds of raging.
Rage points are a ‘manageable resource’ that a character may use quickly or slowly. Without knowing how many fights will occur in a day, a player may either conserve or use them very quickly. Considering some abilities can cost 8 rage points/round, a 20th level Barbarian is very restricted from using the Mighty Rage. Elemental Fury (8pts) and Mighty Rage (4pts) would total 12 pts/round. At 20th level with a 16 Con we have 102 rage points. This would equate to 8 rounds of rage (remainder 6 rage points). Certainly at high levels the rage points can be spent very quickly, increasing the likelihood of contributing to the ’15 minute adventure day’.
In this sense, the Pathfinder Barbarian fails. It appears to provide more options, but they work to reduce the amount the character can use the signature ability. With the high cost of many of the rage powers, reducing the extra cost of Greater and Mighty rage make a big difference. Using the variant presented above, a 20th level barbarian using Elemental Fury would only expend 9 rage points/round. This would work out to 11 rounds of rage. The moral of the story is that no matter how Greater and Mighty Rage, rage powers need to be used sparingly and only in extreme circumstances should they be used every round.
This causes additional complexity in the game, as the barbarian constantly shifts from normal AC to a higher AC w/ Guarded Stance, or recalculates CMB with a bonus of Barbarian level to strength. Essentially, using many rage powers without having worked out the math in advance is a problem in a smoothly flowing game. At this point the calculations seem a normal part of playtesting, but I expect them to continue long after certain players have ‘mastered’ the class, depending on their ability to figure their bonuses in advance.
The major effect that Constitution has on number of Rage Points makes a big difference in the power level of the game. A barbarian with a 15 Constitution is much weaker than a barbarian with a 24 Constitution (5xlevel difference in Rage Points). I personally dislike having the ability so strongly tied with an ability score, since class level should be the primary factor in determining class abilities. A 20th level barbarian with a 15 Con has more Rage Points from Level, but a barbarian with a 24 Constitution has more than 2x as many from Con as from level. Calculating the number of rage points is a bit annoying since 1st level provides a different number. I essentially take the level, subtract 1, multiply by 2+Con, then add in the number gained at 1st level. Having a universally smooth progression will eliminate that minor wrinkle.
Suggestions
Reduce the cost of Greater and Mighty Rage to one rage point/round. This more closely emulates 3.5 where a barbarian that has Greater Rage does not use normal Rage. Having a single type of rage (+4, +6 or +8) will be easier than having to keep track of all 3, especially as you can move through them each round. This will also be true since a character that is in a rage will choose to maintain it with ‘rage’, but after moving toward enemies, switch to Greater Rage, then attack.
Change the number of rage points at each level to a universal amount. I suggest 4/level (maximum of 80 at 20th level). Removing the addition of Constitution to the number of rage points grants will bring the capabilities of different barbarians more in line with each other. Since Constitution should be important, I propose limiting a barbarian to spending their Constitution modifier in rage points/round. Thus, a 20th level character with a 15 Con in rage (23 while raging) would be able to spend only 6 rage points/round. A barbarian with a 20 Con (28 while raging) would be able to spend 9 rage points/round.
Suggested Barbarian Rage Rounds
1st Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 4 rounds
4th Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 16 rounds
8th Level – Rage +4 Strength and Constitution for 32 rounds
12th Level – Rage +6 Strength and Constitution for 48 rounds
16th Level – Rage +6 Strength and Constitution for 64 rounds
20th Level – Rage +8 Strength and Constitution for 80 rounds.
And that’s what I have to say about that.
Very nice breakdown. I agree that Greater and Mighty Rages should simply supercede the earlier versions. Having to keep up with separate stats for 2 or 3 different types of Rage is just a bit much. It also puts me in mind of DragonBall Z characters which is NOT something I would want in my D&D sessions!
On paper it does seem like the 3.5 barbarian "comes out ahead". The problem though is that no one has 100+ rounds of combat in a day.
Few have 20+.
If you assume an average of 5 rounds per encounter that's still a 4 encounter day. (and from my own experience, 5 rounds is a *long* combat. They are usually, but not always, over far earlier).
Added to this is the fact that the Paizo barbarian can split up their "rounds of rage". While the 3.5 may technically get more rounds of rage, it comes in specific blocks. You rage, and you use up a set chunk of rage time. It doesn't matter if you used it to knock down a door in 1 kick and find nothing to do for the next 30 rounds due to no combat and no doors- you are Still raging and the timer is still gone.
The rage points give the barbarian some options. This is a good thing. The barbarian can simply rage.. or choose how powerful to rage, or they can choose to rage and do something else, depending on the scenario. This is a very very good thing.
I much prefer the ability to choose, rather than the all or nothing system that existed in 3.5, even if Paizo's results in "fewer rounds" of rage. Especially since all of Paizo's Rage can be used in combat.
The following numbers assume a Constitution of 16. Since many Barbarians advance only their strength score, we’re going to assume that remains a constant for the basis of comparison.
Constitution 16 is not really essential for your analysis, if you take Con 20 instead, the 20th level 3.5 Barbarian gains 12 more rounds of rage (2 additional rounds for each of the 6/rage attempts) and the 3.P Barbarian gains 40 rage points, which is only 10 rounds of mighty rage. Thus with increasing the Con score, the 3.5 Barbarian gets even better than the 3.P Barbarian, if you only look at the number of rounds, where it has mighty rage.
Just because increasing the modifier by +x just means that at 20th level the 3.5 Barbarian has 6*x more rounds of rage while the 3.P Barbarian only has (20*x)/4=5*x rounds more, thus increasing Con makes the comparison even more unfavorable for the 3.P barbarian.To counter the decline in rage points at high levels, you can also reintroduce a feat like extra rage, now called enlarged rage pool or something similar that increases rage points.
If we say at level 20 that a Con score of 20 is the norm for a Barbarian, this would mean that in the old system two extra rages per day were equal to 24 rounds of mighty rage, we would now need at least 80 rage points to do the same. This means that the feat would have to at least give 4 extra rage points per level.
Of course there was also the feat Extend rage, that basically gave you 30 more rounds of rage per day, which is even more than above, especially if both are combined you gain an increase of 40 rounds through extend rage.
But even with all of this I would say that the ability to also use all your rage points in a single battle may be more powerful at high levels than in the old 3.5 system.
One other thing. Why is it difficult to calculate rage points: 2+level*(2+Con), basically you always gain 2+Con rage points each level, just on the first level you gain an additional two
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The following numbers assume a Constitution of 16. Since many Barbarians advance only their strength score, we’re going to assume that remains a constant for the basis of comparison.
The 3.5 Barbarian still has more total rounds of Rage but they are far less useful. The PRPG barbarian has 35 rounds of rage (assuming he always maxes his rage out) which is enough for 7 typical encounters, but can be spread out over any combination of events from busting down a single door, to making a giant leap... etc.
A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier.... At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued for the duration of the current encounter...
A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter.... to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level
First, your 60 rounds figure is way off base. A typical encounter lasts 3-5 rounds. (incidentally if you do have 6 10 round encounters your 20th level wizard and cleric are relegated to casting their 1st level spells). So in normal game play the 3.5 barb 20 has somewhere between 18 and 30 rounds of rage in 6 bursts. Further, should an encounter last 11 rounds the 3.5 barbarian is suddenly a mediocre fighter.
At lower levels these limits are even worse because rage runs out after 8 rounds and a barbarian can't even rage for the entire 4 encounter work day until he reaches 12th level :(
I have not playtested the new barbarian but I have worked with the 3.5 barbarian quite a bit and we bump into these stupid limits all the time. When we hit a big encounter our (low-mid level) barbarian is afraid to rage right off the bat because his rage will run out. Sometimes he rages and the encounter is short but later he doesn't have a rage available.
As for the rage points being tied to CON, How many fighters do you know with a 14 strength? How many wizards with a 14 INT? It's just like any other class, the primary attribute is almost always kept maxed out.
-- Dennis
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But even with all of this I would say that the ability to also use all your rage points in a single battle may be more powerful at high levels than in the old 3.5 system.
I certainly agree that the ability to rage for a single round and then stop raging, in essence 'saving' rage for later does make the Pathfinder Barbarian more flexible, and therefore more fun to play.
I am fully in favor of Rage Points. I think they are a fun mechanic, and I want to make sure that such a dramatic change is fully analyzed before the final system is locked in.
So, to clarify a few points -
Constitution and Rage Points
Because the Constitution modifier is added to number of rounds of rage at each level, it has a tremendous effect on the number of rounds a barbarian can rage (or how many Rage abilities) he can use during his regular rage. A wizard with a high intelligence gets bonus spells, but the difference in number of spells between a 15th level wizard with a 20 Intelligence and a 15th level wizard with a 30 Intelligence is actually very small. A 15th level wizard has 30 spells to cast (base) and with an Int of 20, gains 6 bonus spells. The 30 Int wizard gains 16 bonus spells. Thus, the net difference is 10, or 1/3 of the total spells granted by the base class.
Now look at the number of Rage Points provided to the barbarian. A 15th level barbarian with a 20 Con has 15x7+9= 114 Rage Points. A barbarian with a 30 Con has 15x12+14= 194 rage points. Depending on how that is used, that is a lot more. No increse of 1/3. We're nearly 2x.
One of the nice functions of class abilities is that they scale well with level. When an ability is so strongly tied to a single ability score, the attribute makes a big difference. A character with a high ability score (say 20 to start) is much more powerful than a 'standard' game where the PC starts with a 14 in a secondary stat. Obviously higher stats lead to higher power levels, but in this case, a small increase in ability scores leads to a big increase in relative power.
In this case, I think a system of 'bonus abilities' based on Constitution is a better model than more rage points. There are a few ways that could be done and maintain the flavor. Other than using the cap on rage points/round (as suggested in my first post) a high Constitution could also grant 'bonus rage abilities'. I'm all for having Constitution tied to the ability to rage, but I don't think it should be the primary determining factor.
Keeping track of constantly changing abilities
More options are good. But we're also trying to play a fun game, and part of that is keeping it moving. As much as I enjoy playing with my players, half of them are extremely bad at addition. This makes many aspects of the game difficult as they try to add more than 2 numbers together (flanking, aid, bull's strength, etc). The barbarian as written can spend 1 rage point/round to remain in 'normal rage'. In a combat situation the barbarian might begin combat by spending a rage point to begin rage. The next round the barbarian moves to engage the enemy (one point). The next round the barbarian is close so uses Greater Rage (4 points) increasing the Strength and Con, causing the player to refigure attack and hit points. After smiting the enemy, the character goes back to 'normal rage' because there are no other enemies in melee range and repeats the process... This means we have a barbarian that is constantly switching from +4 Str/Con, to +6, and to +8 (at least, possibly). The constant changes are not only possible, but encouraged since maintaining a supply of rage points can allow the character to be more effective. A 'waste' by spending large number of rage points when no enemies threaten is something most players simply won't do, nor would I expect them to. But it creates a book keeping nightmare. I'd like to see the system avoid that if possible.
Calculating Rage Points
It isn't hard to calculate rage points. I should have done it as levelx(2+con)+2. But instead I did it as (level-1)x 2+Con + 4+Con. It works out the same, but it was an extra step. While I'm usually pretty good with math, I don't expect everyone else to be, so having a very simple escalation that can be expressed in a sentence (ie, a barbarian gains 4 rage points per level) is a good thing. Please see above for my players and their ability to add.
Doing Fun Things
The ability to use rage powers is probably the best thing about the new system. If you look at the 20th level barbarian using Mighty Rage, you'll notice that it doesn't include using any of those abilities in the numbers. If you use even 2 or 3 rounds of a high level ability, you're done for the day. It's just a little too 'expensive'. I'd rather see some of the costs reduced so that the barbarian can take advantage of new abilities.
Great observation! I love playing the barbarian straight to level 20, so if this could be changed that would be great.
Maybe they could give them a little more rage points, and that might fix it?
Keeping track of constantly changing abilities
More options are good. But we're also trying to play a fun game, and part of that is keeping it moving. As much as I enjoy playing with my players, half of them are extremely bad at addition. This makes many aspects of the game difficult as they try to add more than 2 numbers together (flanking, aid, bull's strength, etc).
<snipped the example>
The constant changes are not only possible, but encouraged since maintaining a supply of rage points can allow the character to be more effective. A 'waste' by spending large number of rage points when no enemies threaten is something most players simply won't do, nor would I expect them to. But it creates a book keeping nightmare. I'd like to see the system avoid that if possible.
I agree that this is a pretty bad problem.
How about changing Rage cost to 2 points/round no matter the "degree" of Rage? Barbarians would just use the best rage available like in 3.5.
Using this change, a 1st level barbarian with CON 14 would rage 4 rounds per day, i.e. a single combat, but the number goes up rapidly when the character levels up.
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Constitution and Rage Points
Because the Constitution modifier is added to number of rounds of rage at each level, it has a tremendous effect on the number of rounds a barbarian can rage (or how many Rage abilities) he can use during his regular rage. A wizard with a high intelligence gets bonus spells, but the difference in number of spells between a 15th level wizard with a 20 Intelligence and a 15th level wizard with a 30 Intelligence is actually very small. A 15th level wizard has 30 spells to cast (base) and with an Int of 20, gains 6 bonus spells. The 30 Int wizard gains 16 bonus spells. Thus, the net difference is 10, or 1/3 of the total spells granted by the base class.
Power level of a 30 INT wiz versus a 20 INT wiz at 15th level:
Double the number of her highest level spells (8th)50% more 7th level spells
33% more 6th level spells
50% more 5th level spells
The 30 INT caster is going to wipe the floor with the caster with 20 INT. He has more peak power and more staying power for a prolonged fight. You are also discarding the fact that DCs for the 30INT wizards spells are 5 higher than the DCs for the 20INT wizards spells. Vastly increasing the effectiveness of each individual spell.
The barbarian on the other hand:
20 CON: 2+ (2+5)*15= 107 rage points
30 CON: 2+ (2+10)*15= 180 rage points
At first glance you thing "Nearly an 80% increase in total power! However, most of those rage points will never get spent. The barbarian in greater rage burns 2 RP/ round and even the 20 CON barb can rage for 50 rounds. If he burns an additional 4 rage points per round on rage powers she can last 17 rounds or 3-5 encounters using rage powers every single round. Now the higher CON barbarian will be able to last quite a bit longer but in a second you will see that this isn't so important.
The big difference is peak power for a barbarian is controlled not by CON but by STR. In a fight between a barbarian with a 20STR and a 30CON and one with a 30STR and 20CON the higher strength barbarian will almost certainly win because he would kill the higher CON barb before either burned through all their rage points.
There is a definite diminishing return to high constitution for barbarians because the ability to do unto others peaks. The impact of INT on a wizard's power is much more significant than the impact of CON on rage power.
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Keeping track of constantly changing abilities
I agree that this is a significant problem. My barb player has issues with this with traditional rage, add in levels of rage and it's chaos. My suggested fix is simpler than yours, require the character always use her highest level rage. By the time she gets greater rage she has plenty of rage points to do it. This way the player only has one extra set of stats to track.
-- Dennis
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After reviewing the cost, I think that the answer is to make rage cost 2/round for every version (from regular to greater to mighty).
This reduces the number of rounds for regular rage, but increases it for mighty rage... A good compromise to more closely resemble 3.5, especially considering the additional flexibility.
In discussion with one of my players, a major concern for him is 'hoarding' rage points. Since they are a 'finite resource' like spells, you are never sure how many you will need to reserve for future encounters. For this reason most players will finish the day with some (I only have 10% of my rage points - we should rest) rage points, just as most wizards finish with some spells.
I don't really see a problem with that, as long as the barbarian has enough rage points to 'get the job done' consideirng the extra flexibility with being able to spend them more easily.
I do think the costs for rage powers are 'inflated' versus the cost for the rage ability. Most of the rage abilities could be divided by 2 and it would work better in my mind. I think that the bite attack, for instance, shouldn't cost as much as a round of mighty rage.
Another possible thought would be to remove the 'rage point cost' of rage powers, and simply make them 'always on'. If that were the case the '2 point' rage powers would cost one ability, while an 8 rage point power would cost '4 abilities'... Essentially there would be a low version, improved, greater.... etc progression.
Just some thoughts to throw at the wall and see what sticks.
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Instead of 50 points at 8th level, spending 3 per round for basic stuff we have a flat 15 rounds/day with mostly free options and some costing 1 extra.
Instead of 162 points at 20th level, spending 6 per round on basics, we have 28 rounds, with some options taking away 1. Much the same result with much less fuss.
Sounds intriguing. I look forward to your playtest report.
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Much the same result with much less fuss.
I really like your idea tussock. Right now my player is 6th level and she already has a bucket of 24 rage buttons (easier to move buttons then count). I can see keeping track of 80+ rage points would be a bear.
For what it's worth as I mentioned above my players barbarian uses a small cup with buttons and pulls one out for each round and 2-4 out for rage powers. I was planning on making some tokens which would be worth 4 points so she wouldn't have to wrestle with dozens of the things.
@Squirrelloid - What you suggest takes all resource management from the player I don't like this idea, it's like saying sorcerers don't have to track spells.
-- Dennis
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Sorry, my bad. I didn't realize the barbarian was the class for stupid people can play D&D and be good at beating things with a big stick.
So you think it's cool that a barbarian with a CON of 8 can rage just as long as one with a CON of 18. Personally I think that is lame but whatever.
I know if I were making a barbarian with no rage limits it would have a high DEX to make up for the AC penalty a low CON and a medium STR since the +4 STR and CON make up for that weakness. I couldn't see any reason to run a fighter... for that matter ranger becomes unappealing since barbarian archers would be awesome.
-- Dennis
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The best defense really is a good offense - the faster it dies, the less damage it deals you.
Meh....that theory was debunked in Super Bowl 36; the Rams having the best offense in the NFL - one of THE best in NFL history and a 15 point favorite got beat by the staunch defense of the Patriots.
....of course the patriots cheated we later found out.....but that's not the point! Why argue with facts, right?
I really love the new barbarian rage abilities - I just think (as DeadDM pointed out) that the greater rage abilities need to cost the same amount per round to do as the original rage does.
Robert