Currently as written, characters gain a feat every two levels (p. 13). Monsters however are being described as getting one feat plus one per three hit dice (p. 126). This disparity is a departure from the standard set by D&D 3.5. I'm wondering, is this intentional, or maybe an oversight?
If it is intentional, am I right in assuming that a monster with character levels would gain more feats per two character levels in addtion to those granted by hit dice?
Example: consider the Troll Hunter from the SRD, a 6th level troll ranger. As a troll, the creature gets six hit dice, so he has one feat plus two for the hit dice, amounting to three feats. For his ranger levels he gets another feat at 1st, 3rd, and 5th level each, for a grand total of six feats (which is one more than the SRD version). Would this assumption be correct?
I have to admit I'm NOT a fan of having PCs and NPCs follow different rules. The best thing 3.5 ever did was to adjust things so that all of the rules (except for wealth by level, for obvious reasons) were standardized.
I have to admit I'm NOT a fan of having PCs and NPCs follow different rules. The best thing 3.5 ever did was to adjust things so that all of the rules (except for wealth by level, for obvious reasons) were standardized.
I'm with you there, but one could actually argue that using different progressions for character levels and racial hit dice doesn't really break that paradigm.
I just would like to get confirmation. On page 129 it says unter Option 2: Complete Conversion: "Rebuild the creature’s feats. As of this release, monsters do not change in this regard." This implies that the disparity is intentional, but that it might change in future releases. Hm.
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I just would like to get confirmation. On page 129 it says unter Option 2: Complete Conversion: "Rebuild the creature’s feats. As of this release, monsters do not change in this regard." This implies that the disparity is intentional, but that it might change in future releases. Hm.
It could also refer to the fact that some feats have been changed or no longer exist.
Standardized progressions for hd/level are win. 3.5 got my vote over 3.0 almost exclusively because of this.
Here's hoping it stays in PFRPG.
It really would be nice if Jason or someone else could pop in and clarify this. It is a good point that probably needs to be addressed.
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I adore the standardization 3.5 did with monsters and character, D&D4's renewed seperation is one of my main reasons of being critical toward it. I would be quite disappointed if Paizo were to go the same way. What I would like to see would be a smarter selection of a creatures feat. Which might be a bit of a problem since there aren't that many useful monster feats (and some a bit too useful ones like final strike (aka post mortem tpk from savage species). So, until more feats for monsters are introduced, extending the number of feat slots receives might not be top priority but I would still like to retain the monster/character transparency.
I like the standardization, but I think it is not put in there because every monster would have to be changed. I don't want to have to go "Oh, wait, I need to give this guy more feats" every time I pull a monster from the MM.
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I like the standardization, but I think it is not put in there because every monster would have to be changed. I don't want to have to go "Oh, wait, I need to give this guy more feats" every time I pull a monster from the MM.
I usually do it anyway because most of the monsters have a strange selection of feats. Also, last time I used a monster strait from a monster manual it nearly wiped out the party.
Jason, if you read this, can you confirm if feats for monsters with classes work as I assumed in the original post or not?
bumping this thread, as this is important for the PCGen implementation for Pathfinder. Can anyone from Paizo comment on this?
Going back to a 3.0esque different feats for different folks system would be bad bad bad. Backwards compatibility doesn't mean backwards retrogression. Blech!
I vote for full standardization.
I noticed this too, I think I would like it if monsters got additional feats, and it might help to balance things out a bit, since Pathfinder PCs are a bit more powerful than their original dnd counterparts. I don't think it would be too unbalancing, even a 30 HD creature only gets 5 more feats than his MM counterpart. It wouldnt be too hard to convert. Here he gets Toughness (love the new toughness, btw), weapon focus (primary attack or secondary attack if primary is already focused), Iron Will (or other save-booster that he doesnt already have), Vital Strike (if BAB high enough, otherwise another save booster), and Improved Natural attack (primary weapon). There, done, for a 30 HD creature in like... 2 seconds. It wouldnt be too complicated. And for those who dont want to do it on the fly, hey.... just use monsters as-is, no harm in that.
Adding the extra feats to monsters in not a big problem. In fact, with the changes to the skill system, the extra feats can actually bring the monsters in line with the 3.5 version or do away with a creature's bonus feats.
For example, here is the Behir that I updated to Pathfinder during the Alpha 2. These stats also have my house rules for swallow whole, so I apologize if my conversion causes any confusion.
BEHIR
CR 8
Often N Huge magical beast
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 9, flat-footed 19 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +11 natural)
Hp 94 (9d10+45)
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +5
Immune electricity, cannot be tripped
OFFENSE
Spd 40 ft., climb 15 ft.
Melee bite +15 (2d4+12)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks breath weapon, constrict (2d8+8), improved grab, rake (1d4+4), swallow whole
TACTICS
During Combat A behir usually bites and grabs its prey first, then either swallows or constricts the opponent. It can employ its claws only against foes caught in its coils. If beset by a large number of foes, it uses its breath weapon.
STATISTICS
Abilities Str 26, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 12
Base Atk +9, CBM +19 (+21 grapple)
Feats Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Perception), Skill Focus (Survival)
Skills Climb +16*, Stealth +5, Perception +5, Survival +5; *Behirs have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.
Languages Common
ECOLOGY
Environment warm hills
Organization solitary or pair
Treasure standard
Advancement 10–13 HD (Huge); 14–27 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment —
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Breath Weapon (Su) 20-foot line, once every 10 rounds, damage 7d6 electricity, Reflex DC 19 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Constrict (Ex) A behir deals 2d8+8 points of damage with a successful grapple check. It can make six rake attacks against a grappled foe as well.
Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a behir must hit a creature of any size with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to constrict the opponent or swallow the opponent in the following round.
Rake (Ex) Six claws, attack bonus +15 melee, damage 1d4+4.
Swallow Whole (Ex) A behir can try to swallow a grabbed Medium or smaller opponent. The target is allowed a Reflex save (DC 19) to avoid this. A failed save leaves the target grappled, though the attempt to swallow does not count as maintaining the grapple. The save is Dexterity-based and the behir has a +4 racial bonus to the DC.
A behir that successfully swallows an opponent can use its Cleave feat to bite and grab another opponent. A swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the behir’s gizzard. Swallowed creatures can attempt to free themselves by inflicting 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 15) with a light weapon or unarmed attack. Success results in a gag reflex that immediately expels the swallowed creature.
A behir’s gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.
I'd prefer for it to remain 1 per 3 H.D. for straight forward backward compatibility of monster stats (some of those non-OGL are fun after all). I may be a lazy slob but I like to wing it sometimes and skills are switched almost mechanically from 3.5 to PF, feats require a more thoughtful approach
I understand the point about standardizing the systems but Monster H.D. are already off that chart with ECL adjustments. If you can look at Savage Species (something like 3.25) you can understand how Racial H.D. really don't balance with Character Levels.
For those who like Monster Characters I might take off one from the ECL for PF and you should be O.K. with character building.
My 2c.
Personally, I'm OK with both versions, I'd just like to get confimation either way, so I can proceed with the necessary code work on PCGen. :)
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Monster feats already need to be changed in most of the cases because of the changes to a few feats nearly any monster in 3.5 had: Alertness and Toughness.
As it is now, most creatures are now better of taking Skill Focus (Perception) than Alertness, unless you find animals with an increased ability to appraise convincing.
Toughness, on the other hand, was a feat that many monsters in 3.5 had taken lots of times, something the PFRPG rules don't allow at the moment (if they did, many monsters would have a 4Eesque amount of hit points).
The main problem at the moment is that there aren't that many feats, especially core ones, a monster can take. I guess this problem would be best addressed in an upcoming Pathfinder Monster Manual.
At the moment I even have problem to fill the 3.5 feat slots of a monster, so, while I am a great proponent of the 3.5 character-monster symmetry, an increased number of alloted feats isn't that important.
How do feats work for monsters with class levels? I mean, say I (the DM) have a 6 HD monster, with 3 feats. Then I add 1 class level -- he's now 7 HD, does he get a new feat for having 7 HD? Or do I have to wait until 8 HD (because he just got one at 6 HD, and characters get 1/2 levels, not 1/level)? Or does it wait until 9 HD, because the original "monster" progression overrules the new "class" progression? I could make a case for any of the three. HELP!
This is one of the reasons I loved the character/monster rules standardization in 3.5.