I think that's the plan, to balance things out among the classes by having two abilities matter for all classes. Paladins reduce down by using Charisma instead of Wisdom for spells as well as turning, but Wizards need a broader base.
Is it a mistake that CHA is the main attribute for School Powers? Doesn't this force a multiple attribute dependency on a Wizard? Just a thought.
Yes, it's a mistake.
As a level 6 Wizard, I used my spell like ability to cast fireball last night. My DM asked the DC, and I said "12". Yes, that's right, 12. 'Cause I'm a Wizard, and if the Int. isn't outrageous the save DCs for my normal spells won't be worth attempting... and the bonus spells are tied to Int... and if I want skill points, I need Int., so bumping my charisma to even a 10 wasn't worth the points.
My DM laughed.
And I did 1/2 damage to a group of NPCs... and yeah, it was only slightly better than not doing anything that round.
And no, I'm not going to waste the resources to bump up my charisma for a better spell-like fireball. It's just not worth it. Honestly, if I wasn't interested in play testing Wizard, I doubt I'd stick it out in the base class past 8th level (the free metamagic seems the only school power that really pays to get - although wish isn't bad either).
This is most definitely a mistake. Intelligence is the primary attribute for wizards, it is in the very fabric of how their spells are constucted for their class so to speak. They would not have the training to relearn how to use spells in this other manner. Besides, if charisma was used, many would not be able to cast any of their arcane powers spells at even 2nd level.
The biggest two areguments for having Cha for the Wiz and Clr SLAs are as follow:
(1) SLAs are supposed to use Cha; it;s in the SRD (Rebuttal: look at the Minor Magic and Major Magic Rogue Talents, as they use Int)
(2) Its makes them use more ability scores.
i cannot argue with the latter, but I can offer this: If the school SLA are supposed to be the fundamental parts of the Wizards or Cleric's repertoire, then why should they be weaker than normal spells? They should probably be at least as strong, maybe (and I emphasize maybe) even a little stronger. I mean, these are the things that Wizards and Clerics rely upon as staples of their breed of magic. The extra Sorcerer bloodline spells don't rely on Wis or Int, so why should these rely on Cha?
I do not really understand why those powers were based on Charisma either (and I house-ruled that they would use the normal main casting stat in my games).
My (perhaps faulty) reasoning is the following one: those abilities are supposed to replace the specialization advantages (including the +1 spell per level), and most classes got an increase in power, so why replace those additional spells with abilities that are weaker?
Then again, it's quite possible that I missed something in the Great Balance of All Things.
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Any chances of this getting fixed for Beta?
Personally, I don't think it's a mistake, or something that needs "fixing." Heck, I've always thought that every spellcasting class except sorcerer should be MAD: primary stat for spell level known, and Charisma for DCs. That would make Charisma more valuable to spellcasters in general, and would tie in the idea of "Charisma as force of self." Generally speaking, spell-like abilities should be based off Charisma, and I don't see anything wrong with that being the case here.
Jeremy Puckett
I don't think this is a mistake. Like mentioned above, spell-like abilities use Charisma and this makes sense as they are like mini-sorceries.
I believe Gnome Ninja found a rules consistency issue in rogue magic talents. They should also use Charisma.
All that said, DCs of low CHA wizards are pretty lame. Maybe Wizard (and Rogue) spell-likes should be exceptions to the general rule...
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I weigh in on the side of those who agree that it isn't a mistake, nor bad for the game, SAD is a mistake, especially with point buy, because what I've seen is players who do exactly what the OP was saying (in fact if the op's name is micheal because that is almost word for word what he would say) and have an intelligence in the 20s and all other stats at 8s and maybe one or two 10s.
I don't think this is a mistake. Like mentioned above, spell-like abilities use Charisma and this makes sense as they are like mini-sorceries.
I believe Gnome Ninja found a rules consistency issue in rogue magic talents. They should also use Charisma.
All that said, DCs of low CHA wizards are pretty lame. Maybe Wizard (and Rogue) spell-likes should be exceptions to the general rule...
I suggested before that fore Wizards and Clerics, since these are supposed to be their most basic powers, maybe the DC should be
10 + spell level + Cha + [usual ability bonus]This way, casters would still have a reason to have a good Cha, but they need not rely on it.
Wizards aren't single attribute characters to start. They need Int., that much is obvious. But they also need Dex and Con. No Dex, the Wizard won't last long in a fight (and yes, I know the wizard shouldn't be front and center, but I have had wizards get hit from time to time). Furthermore, no Dex, no ranged touch attacks. No con, and you won't last long in a fight (used to be you needed the con for casting defensively).
Then we have the saves... Wizards have rotten Fort and Ref saves... so Dex and Con again. Still, a decent Wisdom doesn't hurt either.
Then there's the CMB... Strength only so as to give Wizards a better chance (don't ask me, that's what Jason said). So, yeah, now a Wizard needs to think about his strength score a little bit.
So, a wizard needs a high Int, a decent Dex and Con, and is better off putting something into Wisdom and Strength.
And now we have spell like abilities for Charisma.
How high does the charisma have to be? Well, in my experience, monsters and npcs make their saves about 50-70% of the time (the bigger the threat, the more likely they make their save, the lower the threat - and thus less reason to actually waste a spell on them - the better the chance they'll fail the save). That's with an Int. starting at 18.
So a Charisma score of less than 18 isn't going to be worth it. But a charisma score of 18 will mean sacrificing the wizard's ability to survive or hit (less points, if any, for con, dex, and wisdom).
If the problem is Wizards having an 8 in everything and an Int in the 20s... there's an easy fix. Force the to make Fortitude saves... have them be ambushed (for failing that spot check) by a couple rogues and with the low hitpoints and AC, watch them die horrible deaths.
As to the standpoint that CHR is the standard for SLA's, how do you justify the Sorcerer using CON for their abilities? I guess the resoning is that the sorcerer's abilities aren't SLA but are mostly SU (that have a save).
Personally, I find it rediculous that the wizard's natural spellcasting abilities pale in comparison to his normal spells. This will be one of the first things I talk my DM into changing when we start using the Pathfinder rules.
IMO, the wizards aren't anymore SAD than fighters. A wizard needs a high INT and a good DEX and CON (from my experience). WIS is nice also. A fighter generally needs a high STR and a good DEX and CON. Just like a wizard can use CHR as a dump stat, so can a fighter.
Clerics actually make out pretty good since CHR not only affects their SLA's, but also their turning ability and one of their skills (Diplomacy). Wizards don't get anything out of bumping their CHR except the SLA, which will still be weaker (easier to save against) than their normal spells. Sorcerer's get a bump in HP and Fort saves to improve their abilities, so even they make out pretty good compared to the wizard.
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Personally, I find it rediculous that the wizard's natural spellcasting abilities pale in comparison to his normal spells. This will be one of the first things I talk my DM into changing when we start using the Pathfinder rules.
So I learn to warp reality with my mind, and I do it so much so that after a while I begin to be able to do it without all the equipment, I can litterally pull things from nothing with no focus because I've gotten so good at it and I should be as good or better at it?
It's like arguing that after tons of choping wood, I should be able to do it barehanded and be just as good as if I have the axe in my hands.
Personally, I find it rediculous that the wizard's natural spellcasting abilities pale in comparison to his normal spells. This will be one of the first things I talk my DM into changing when we start using the Pathfinder rules.
So I learn to warp reality with my mind, and I do it so much so that after a while I begin to be able to do it without all the equipment, I can litterally pull things from nothing with no focus because I've gotten so good at it and I should be as good or better at it?
It's like arguing that after tons of choping wood, I should be able to do it barehanded and be just as good as if I have the axe in my hands.
OK, point taken :) I'll try to stop looking at it that way...
However, I still feel that they should be able to use their SLA abilities with the same potency as their spells, especially when they mimick those spells.
I would be happy if they would make the DC equal to 12+CHR Mod+spell level (instead of 10). That would at least still keep a reliance on another ability score, while giving the SLA abilities a slight boost. 10 just seems too low.
Personally, I find it rediculous that the wizard's natural spellcasting abilities pale in comparison to his normal spells. This will be one of the first things I talk my DM into changing when we start using the Pathfinder rules.
So I learn to warp reality with my mind, and I do it so much so that after a while I begin to be able to do it without all the equipment, I can litterally pull things from nothing with no focus because I've gotten so good at it and I should be as good or better at it?
It's like arguing that after tons of choping wood, I should be able to do it barehanded and be just as good as if I have the axe in my hands.
If it's not near as effective as what you can cast off your spell list, then why bother having it as a class ability? Yeah, I cast fireball using my school power... why? Because Jason wanted play testing, so I tested. Was it useless. Yes, pretty much. Result: I won't be relying upon Fireball to do anything in the future, and will consider it a last option.
If the idea behind school powers is to encourage players to not multiclass... then the school powers need to be useful. As it is, basing saves on a wizard's charisma is useless. This won't stop me from multiclassing.
As is, the only reason I'd prefer a Pathfinder Wizard over a 3.5 Wizard is the bonded item as it currently is. Otherwise, a 3.5 Specialist is by far a better choice.
If it's not near as effective as what you can cast off your spell list, then why bother having it as a class ability? Yeah, I cast fireball using my school power... why? Because Jason wanted play testing, so I tested. Was it useless. Yes, pretty much. Result: I won't be relying upon Fireball to do anything in the future, and will consider it a last option.
If the idea behind school powers is to encourage players to not multiclass... then the school powers need to be useful. As it is, basing saves on a wizard's charisma is useless. This won't stop me from multiclassing.
As is, the only reason I'd prefer a Pathfinder Wizard over a 3.5 Wizard is the bonded item as it currently is. Otherwise, a 3.5 Specialist is by far a better choice.
Good point. Bards can learn Mass CLW, but Soothing Performance does the same thing. Is Soothing Performance worse? No! Same goes for other Bard songs that mimic spells they can get. Why should it be worse for Wizards then? Just because bards rely on a typical dump stat? That's just crap.
Cha is a dump stat because few classes rely on it. THREE do now, and one more benefits from it (Brd, Pal and Sor, and Clr, respectively). The same goes for Str: some classes need no Str, and it can be used as a dump stat; that doesn't make a good argument for using Str for Sorcerer abilities just because "it's often dumped."
With all the comparison to the Arcane powers to the Sorc's abilities, i thought I'd browse through the Sorc to see what their abilities require.
Interestingly enough: they don't get any spell like abilities. Instead, they get Supernatural abilities which, if a save is required at all, is
(10 +1/2 sorc level +con mod).
Seems while wizards require an extra stat to make their new toys work, Sorcs get to bump theirs off Constitution.. nearly everyone's #2 stat.
-S
Or don't use the Wizard's CHA as a dump stat. :P
Yes it's intentional and CHA being used for abilities makes sense.
That's cool... I think the fighter's attack bonus from weapon training should be based of CHR so they can't use that as a dump stat....
That's cool... I think the fighter's attack bonus from weapon training should be based of CHR so they can't use that as a dump stat....Or don't use the Wizard's CHA as a dump stat. :P
Yes it's intentional and CHA being used for abilities makes sense.
Like I said about how Sor spell DCs should be based on Str :P
I agree, it's a mistake. It's useless.
Wizards aren't single attribute characters to start. They need Int., that much is obvious. But they also need Dex and Con. No Dex, the Wizard won't last long in a fight (and yes, I know the wizard shouldn't be front and center, but I have had wizards get hit from time to time). Furthermore, no Dex, no ranged touch attacks. No con, and you won't last long in a fight (used to be you needed the con for casting defensively).
Then we have the saves... Wizards have rotten Fort and Ref saves... so Dex and Con again. Still, a decent Wisdom doesn't hurt either.
Then there's the CMB... Strength only so as to give Wizards a better chance (don't ask me, that's what Jason said). So, yeah, now a Wizard needs to think about his strength score a little bit.
So, a wizard needs a high Int, a decent Dex and Con, and is better off putting something into Wisdom and Strength.
And now we have spell like abilities for Charisma.
How high does the charisma have to be? Well, in my experience, monsters and npcs make their saves about 50-70% of the time (the bigger the threat, the more likely they make their save, the lower the threat - and thus less reason to actually waste a spell on them - the better the chance they'll fail the save). That's with an Int. starting at 18.
So a Charisma score of less than 18 isn't going to be worth it. But a charisma score of 18 will mean sacrificing the wizard's ability to survive or hit (less points, if any, for con, dex, and wisdom).
If the problem is Wizards having an 8 in everything and an Int in the 20s... there's an easy fix. Force the to make Fortitude saves... have them be ambushed (for failing that spot check) by a couple rogues and with the low hitpoints and AC, watch them die horrible deaths.
True, True, true. I agree.
Or don't use the Wizard's CHA as a dump stat. :P
Yes it's intentional and CHA being used for abilities makes sense.
How high would the Wizard's charisma need to be to have a decent save DC for spell like abilities? At level 6, when you get fireball as a universalist... my Int. was 19 (so +4). In this game, I hadn't yet been able to get any Int. boosting gear, but assuming we were keeping up with expected character wealth, I should probably have had a +2 to my int. from a headband. So let's say 21 (+5).
Fireball normally is a 10+4 or 5 (int) +3 (spell level) = DC 17 or 18. And I've had monsters/NPCs easily make this save in the game.
Charisma at 8 = -1 for a DC of 12. (as my DM said, hope they role a 1).
Charisma at 10 = DC 13
Charisma at 11 = DC 13
Charisma at 12 = DC 14 (monsters quacking in their boots yet? No, didn't think so).
Charisma 14 = DC 15 (ooh... scary.)
Charisma 16 = DC 16 - this, to me, would be the bare minimum for having an effective save DC... and even then, it's 1 to 2 points lower than a normal spell (which npcs/monsters are already making their saves against).
So, in a 28 point buy (which is what my group normally does), you need 10 points in Charisma (sorry, I'm not up on the pathfinder point buy system... but my recollection is that it works out to about the same). 10 points on Int. and you have 8 points left for Dex and con. 12 Con, 12 Dex.
That leaves you with the following stats:
str 8, Dex 12, Con 12, Int. 16, Wis 8, Cha 16.
Congrats, you have a low AC and to hit, a hit to your will saves, and a mediocre Int score for a Wizard (meaning you can forget the save or x spells... and you'll take a hit to spells per day, and to skills)... but darn it, when you get o 6th level, you're spell like fireball will only be moderately difficult to save against.
If you're charisma isn't 16 or higher, it may as well be an 8, imho., for purposes of the save DCs.
As I said before... having spell like abilities tied to Charisma makes them useless. If it's a useless bonus ability, then it fails the purpose of encouraging people to remain in the class.
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If it's not near as effective as what you can cast off your spell list, then why bother having it as a class ability? Yeah, I cast fireball using my school power... why? Because Jason wanted play testing, so I tested. Was it useless. Yes, pretty much. Result: I won't be relying upon Fireball to do anything in the future, and will consider it a last option.If the idea behind school powers is to encourage players to not multiclass... then the school powers need to be useful. As it is, basing saves on a wizard's charisma is useless. This won't stop me from multiclassing.
As is, the only reason I'd prefer a Pathfinder Wizard over a 3.5 Wizard is the bonded item as it currently is. Otherwise, a 3.5 Specialist is by far a better choice.
Okay and now for my counter argument, in 3.5 I am playing an enchanter level 2, my party got knocked out and are sitting in a jail cell in our rags. With 3.5 I am now useless (I used my spells in the big fight that got us captured and I have no spellbook to reprepare. In Pathfinder even though it's suboptimal to my normal spellcasting and would therefor not be as useful in the fight, now that I'm in a cell with no spellbook I sure am wishing I had those pathfinder SLAs to come to my rescue.
Okay and now for my counter argument, in 3.5 I am playing an enchanter level 2, my party got knocked out and are sitting in a jail cell in our rags. With 3.5 I am now useless (I used my spells in the big fight that got us captured and I have no spellbook to reprepare. In Pathfinder even though it's suboptimal to my normal spellcasting and would therefor not be as useful in the fight, now that I'm in a cell with no spellbook I sure am wishing I had those pathfinder SLAs to come to my rescue.
Not sure how this is a counter argument.
My argument: Having spell like abilities tied to charisma is next to useless, and will not serve to discourage me from leaving the Wizard class at the first prime opportunity (such as getting into the Master Specialist Prestige Class, or pick a wizard prestige class).
Your argument: Charisma based spell like abilities are better than nothing.
O.k. Yeah, it's better than nothing. Although, in your example, I would find the cantrips (such as mage hand) infinitely more useful than a charm person that won't work. In which case, it's not the SLA that are the life savers, it's the cantrips. I'm not complaining about the cantrips - I love how they are now at-will. This makes tons of sense to me and is a welcome change.
But, I go back to the point of the Spell-like abilities... give the wizard class something to discourage multi-classing or going into a prestige class. Do they succeed in that design goal? Not for me, for a couple reasons. First, I don't like the loss of choice. In 3.5, I had an extra spell per level per day of my choice as a specialist. Now, specialists have no more spells than anyone else (strike one - the benefits for specializing are now specialist powers that are generally not nearly as nice as 9 extra spells per day). As a universalist, I have levitation as a spell like ability, even though my character doesn't have this spell in his spell book and has never cast it. This makes no logical sense. The school powers should either benefit the wizard in some other fashion (x/day knowledge arcana check to increase DCs of saves, change energy type, bonus on caster level checks, something) or allow the wizard to pick the spell (maybe a choice of several options?)
The second problem is that the saves are charisma based... which, as I've said, makes for some really less-than great results. If I have to choose between staying in a class for a 1/day Fireball that will do half damage versus entering a prestige class that will allow me to pick any spell in the player's guide and cast it as though I prepared it for the day... I'm going for the second option.
Is Fireball the only Universalist SLA?
I only have the A2 document in front of me, but is it so different?
I see Shield (1/day per 2 caster levels)
I see Levitate 1/day
Fireball 1/day
Metamagic Mastery 1/day for every 2 caster levels
Teleport 1/day
Globe of Invulnerability 1/day
Limited Wish 1/day
Prismatic Wall 1/day
Wish 1/day
Mastery of All Schools (+2 DC/+4 CL check for SR)
Now granted having the DC for Fireball set to charisma does suck, but- why is that the main concern?
It's not like it erases Fireball from your spell list and only lets you cast it once a day as the SLA. It's a freebie. An extra- and only one of several: the rest of which don't even worry about the DC as they are self-use spells.
I do grant you that I wish it was based on Int (or even Con like the Sorc special abilities), but it's hardly the end of the world.
They could remove fireball and insert any utility 3rd level spell at 1/day and I'd be just as happy as I am now.
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As I said before... having spell like abilities tied to Charisma makes...
First, this is a deliberate attempt to balance the Wizard by making him a little bit Multi Attibute Dependant. Yes, your Wizard bonus powers are going to suck a bit if you stat your wiz out like you did in the Core rules.
The big problem with your argument is that you overlook the fact that while the DC is CHA based it is = 10+ 1/2CL + CHA bonus. So with a 6th level caster the DC does suck serious balls unless you have a high CHA. But the DC for the SLAs goes up with character level which brings the DC closer and closer to parity with the spell as you get higher level. It will likely never reach full parity but that's Ok because SLAs are not supposed to eclipse spells.
Even so, you use the right tool for the job. You use the SLA for blasting the bad guys redshirts and the spell if you are trying to do some serious damage. Sometimes even doing half damage is enough.
-- Dennis
Yes, it's true, there are a number of Wizard powers that aren't tied to saves... but this discussion is about those that do have saves... and my personal play-test experience has only gone so far as to test out the Fireball... and I've not found it to be particularly useful. The metamagic trick at level 8 - yeah, that's fantastic! Levitation? I've yet to use that one. Shield is nice, I admit. Hand of the Apprentice I use... but I hate feeling like a fighter every time I do it. So, out of the Universalist School powers from levels 1-6, my play testing experience is that 2 are useful (but 1 not wizard-like at all), and 2 aren't.
Thus, for me, if I wasn't play testing Wizard... the question is is the Metamagic trick at level 8 worth staying in the Wizard base class that long?
First, this is a deliberate attempt to balance the Wizard by making him a little bit Multi Attibute Dependant. Yes, your Wizard bonus powers are going to suck a bit if you stat your wiz out like you did in the Core rules.
As I already said... Wizards are already multi-attribute dependant! They need Int, Dex and Con already, with at least no negative to Wis. Fighters need Str and Con, with a decent Wis. if they want a Will save... maybe a Dex. So, comparatively speaking, Wizards aren't any more 1-stat. dependent than Fighters.
Throwing a requirement for a high charisma into the mix. isn't necessary, and guarantees mediocre to lousy save DCs across the board, or just the SLA save DCs being lousy.
The big problem with your argument is that you overlook the fact that while the DC is CHA based it is = 10+ 1/2CL + CHA bonus.
Where did that come from?
The DC for any save is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier.
Per Alpha 3, it's the same as the DC for a normal spell, just subbing charisma for intelligence.
Even so, you use the right tool for the job. You use the SLA for blasting the bad guys redshirts and the spell if you are trying to do some serious damage. Sometimes even doing half damage is enough.
As I found in my play test, using the SLA Fireball to blast the redshirts accomplished exactly nothing. Didn't kill any of them, and did enough damage to maybe upset them. I'd have been better off firing magic missile at one of them.
I just don't see this as a means of making these tools the better tool for a wizard than special abilities granted by prestige classes.
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My argument: Having spell like abilities tied to charisma is next to useless, and will not serve to discourage me from leaving the Wizard class at the first prime opportunity (such as getting into the Master Specialist Prestige Class, or pick a wizard prestige class).
You are assuming that the goal here is to make the Wizard Class the most powerful option for a character who has access to all source books. In order to do that the power level for the class would have to equal to the most broken combination of classes in all D&D Splat books. I don't believe that is the goal here, the goal is to reward people for sticking with the core class. There will likely always be a more powerful prestige class out there than what Paizo puts in PRPG, and that's Ok.
In Core you you gave up bonus feats, and advancing your familiar... not a big loss. In PRPG if you PrC all of your specialist abilities stop advancing. You seem to feel that these abilities are completely worthless, I disagree. While they are not as powerful the equivalent spells they are definitely useful. Also, many of the SLAs don't have saving throws so your argument doesn't even apply.
But, I go back to the point of the Spell-like abilities... give the wizard class something to discourage multi-classing or going into a prestige class. Do they succeed in that design goal? ...
Overall it's a hit to the wizards power level, there is no doubt in my mind that specialist powers are weaker than an extra spell/ level. But the goal was not to increase the wizards power, or even to maintain it. The goal was to make it more attractive to stay in the class. Previously there was little or no downside to multi classing, now there is a significant downside to it, even if the PrCs are still more attractive this makes the decision a little bit tougher.
-- Dennis
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As I already said... Wizards are already multi-attribute dependant!
I disagree but that is a separate discussion. Even with a 10CHA though the fireball which you seem to feel is so valuable is far from useless.
As I found in my play test, using the SLA Fireball to blast the redshirts accomplished exactly nothing. Didn't kill any of them, and did enough damage to maybe upset them.
A bugbear would be a classic redshirts at 6th level, they have 16HP and a Reflex save of +4. Average damage from a furball at 6th level is 21HP (3.5HP/ die * 6). The save DC for a Wiz 6 CHA 10 is 13, 45% of the bugbears would take die outright, the remainder now have 6 HP. How is this 'shrugging it off'?
Ok, Ogre's are Redshirts? 29HP, Ref +0, None of them will die but 60% of them are reduced to 8 HP taking them from being 2-3 hits to kill for the fighter down to 1 hit to kill, I don't call that shrugging it off either.
I'd have been better off firing magic missile at one of them.
MM at 6th does 3d4+3, average of 10.5 HP, furball averages 10.5 HP damage to everyone in a 20' radius on a failed save. I'm not sure where your math comes from, are you assuming everyone has evasion?
I just don't see this as a means of making these tools the better tool for a wizard than special abilities granted by prestige classes.
I think I answered this in my previous message. PrCs are less attractive than previously because there is a bigger penalty for entering them.
-- Dennis
The original poster asked whether the saves being based upon charisma was a good idea. I do not believe the purpose of this thread was to discuss all of the school powers, but the ones that have save DCs.
I've tried to limit my discussion to that.
As it is, I'm playing a wizard, I'm not DMing... in fact, I've never DMed a DnD game in my life. So, I'm not intimately familiar with how many hit points an ogre has or a bugbear or even what the appropriate levels those encounters are.
All I can tell you is that in the last game, we came across a room full of priests/cultists and I dropped a fireball in there (the SLA version)... and I didn't kill any of them. They charged out, and it took a few more successful hits per priest/cultist to drop them.
I figure a room like that was bound to have "redshirts" in it, as we were level 6 and it wasn't the big boss fight of the dungeon.
I think you misunderstand my criticism about keeping up with the splat books. I'm not saying that the Wizard core class needs to be more powerful than the prestige classes available... what I'm saying is that the class abilities, whatever they are, need to be pretty solid or interesting enough on their own to make someone want to stick in the class to gain those abilities.
The instant metamagic is a nice ability in that it grants options generally not available. Is that more powerful than some of the other options via prestige classes? My guess is you could go to the char op. boards on the Wizards forums and find some other, more powerful, options.
But if I look at the school powers and it's levitation (eh), fireball with a crappy Save DC (eh), and Mage Hand + (eh)... I'm going to look for prestige classes.
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The original poster asked whether the saves being based upon charisma was a good idea. I do not believe the purpose of this thread was to discuss all of the school powers, but the ones that have save DCs.
I've tried to limit my discussion to that.
I think that's been answered, it's all about MAD.
All I can tell you is that in the last game, we came across a room full of priests/cultists and I dropped a fireball in there (the SLA version)... and I didn't kill any of them. They charged out, and it took a few more successful hits per priest/cultist to drop them.
You got me. *shrug* I can't tell you what happened in your game. I can say for certain that your "worse than MM" statement is complete BS though.
The instant metamagic is a nice ability in that it grants options generally not available. Is that more powerful than some of the other options via prestige classes? My guess is you could go to the char op. boards on the Wizards forums and find some other, more powerful, options.
Again, the point is not for wizard 20 to be the most powerful wizard option in the game. The idea is to make it less of a no-brainer to PrC. I think they succeeded.
But if I look at the school powers and it's levitation (eh), fireball with a crappy Save DC (eh), and Mage Hand + (eh)... I'm going to look for prestige classes.
Maybe some of this has to do with the fact that you chose the generalist school? Incidentally if you'd chosen generalist in the core rules you would have no school bonus abilities, the abilities you are panning don't exist at all. The choice in core for the generalist was not mediocre abilities versus PrC it was nothing versus PrC.
But if I look at the school powers and it's levitation (eh), fireball with a crappy Save DC (eh), and Mage Hand + (eh)... I'm going to look for prestige classes.Maybe some of this has to do with the fact that you chose the generalist school? Incidentally if you'd chosen generalist in the core rules you would have no school bonus abilities, the abilities you are panning don't exist at all. The choice in core for the generalist was not mediocre abilities versus PrC it was nothing versus PrC.
I used to play specialists in 3.5 more than generalists... looking at the pathfinder schools, the abilities that the univeralist got looked better than any of the other schools. That's why I took it. If I wasn't interested in testing those abilities, I'd have taken a prestige class at level 6 or gone specialist and taken a prestige class at level 4.
Obviously whether the powers make the wizard class worth taking up to level 20 is personal opinion. So far, my personal opinion is, the idea of taking a prestige class is still a pretty easy decision. On the one hand have a set of powers that seem lackluster on the other hand, benefits of a prestige class which often are more than a bit interesting. We'll see how the rest of the game goes, but right now, it feels like I'm not really gaining anything with the powers.
I agree, it's a mistake. It's useless.
Doug Bragg 172 wrote:
Wizards aren't single attribute characters to start. They need Int., that much is obvious. But they also need Dex and Con. No Dex, the Wizard won't last long in a fight (and yes, I know the wizard shouldn't be front and center, but I have had wizards get hit from time to time). Furthermore, no Dex, no ranged touch attacks. No con, and you won't last long in a fight (used to be you needed the con for casting defensively).
Then we have the saves... Wizards have rotten Fort and Ref saves... so Dex and Con again. Still, a decent Wisdom doesn't hurt either.
Then there's the CMB... Strength only so as to give Wizards a better chance (don't ask me, that's what Jason said). So, yeah, now a Wizard needs to think about his strength score a little bit.
So, a wizard needs a high Int, a decent Dex and Con, and is better off putting something into Wisdom and Strength.
And now we have spell like abilities for Charisma.
How high does the charisma have to be? Well, in my experience, monsters and npcs make their saves about 50-70% of the time (the bigger the threat, the more likely they make their save, the lower the threat - and thus less reason to actually waste a spell on them - the better the chance they'll fail the save). That's with an Int. starting at 18.
So a Charisma score of less than 18 isn't going to be worth it. But a charisma score of 18 will mean sacrificing the wizard's ability to survive or hit (less points, if any, for con, dex, and wisdom).
If the problem is Wizards having an 8 in everything and an Int in the 20s... there's an easy fix. Force the to make Fortitude saves... have them be ambushed (for failing that spot check) by a couple rogues and with the low hitpoints and AC, watch them die horrible deaths.
True, True, true. I agree.
QFT
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For my mindset, the specialist school powers make it the first time I'd ever have considered making a specialist mage in almost 20 years of gaming primarily as a Wizard. So they're a valuable addition to the game regardless of what their DC is determined by. That said, it just makes sense to me to base it on Intelligence as well... the idea of them is the knowledge that comes from a connection to that specific school enables the Wizard to do so, not the force of personality that makes it possible. It's flavor reasoning, I'll admit, and an idea that makes the Wizard a little powergamer-happy, but one that makes sense, at least.
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For my mindset, the specialist school powers make it the first time I'd ever have considered making a specialist mage in almost 20 years of gaming primarily as a Wizard. So they're a valuable addition to the game regardless of what their DC is determined by. That said, it just makes sense to me to base it on Intelligence as well... the idea of them is the knowledge that comes from a connection to that specific school enables the Wizard to do so, not the force of personality that makes it possible. It's flavor reasoning, I'll admit, and an idea that makes the Wizard a little powergamer-happy, but one that makes sense, at least.
To be honest I agree that it makes more sense to have the save be INT based from a flavor perspective. It's kind of clunky to have the same spell caster with different DCs for an SLA and an identical spell. However since they are SLAs it makes sense for the CHA bonus.
There are serious advantages to SLAs over spells. SLAs are triggered mentally and no Verbal, Somatic, or Material Components are required which is quite nice (Silence is no longer quite so golden). 8 hours of uninterrupted rest is not required either, instead they are recharged on a uses per day basis. A pathfinder wizard has a core of powers they can use even while gagged bound and their spellbook is stashed.
-- Dennis
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I was thinking about that bound and gagged wizard scenario myself the other day. I wonder if, say, an evoker, could use his energy ray ability to burn out of a binding within a few rounds, or does the "any foe" part of the ability descriptor preclude that?
I'm not sure about that but he could certainly use it to burn a solitary guard then roll over and use a weapon the guard is holding and cut free.
Better, the 8th level transmuter could use his change shape ability to shift into a rat and crawl out through a crack.
Actually looking again 1st and 8th level abilities are Supernatural abilities which are even better than SLAs, No AoO, no concentration checks, and can't be dispelled... very nice. Makes that Evokers wall of force a bit more tricky to work with.
Unfortunately while quite nice for the wizard it makes the DM's job a little trickier keeping track of which effects are Su, SLA, or Spells :(
-- Dennis
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Now granted having the DC for Fireball set to charisma does suck, but- why is that the main concern?
It's not like it erases Fireball from your spell list and only lets you cast it once a day as the SLA. It's a freebie. An extra- and only one of several: the rest of which don't even worry about the DC as they are self-use spells.I do grant you that I wish it was based on Int (or even Con like the Sorc special abilities), but it's hardly the end of the world.
They could remove fireball and insert any utility 3rd level spell at 1/day and I'd be just as happy as I am now.
Just for fun, take a look at Evocation. Then see if it's not such a big deal.
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Just for fun, take a look at Evocation. Then see if it's not such a big deal.
Lets see:
2nd Magic Missile -- No Save4th Scorching Ray -- No Save
6th Lightning Bolt -- Save for 1/2
8th Elemental Wall -- No Save
10th Wall of Force -- No Save
12th Chain Lighting -- Save for 1/2
14th Prismatic Spray -- Save/ various
16th Polar Ray -- No Save
18th Meteor Swarm -- No Save/ Save for 1/2
20th Elemental Power -- No Save/ Utility power
So 3.5 of the 8 powers have saves. Not as many as you would think.
No one is suggesting the SLAs are as powerful as their spell counterparts. Just that they are far from 'worthless'. As said above, you pick and choose who you target with a given spell or SLA, just like you do with any other power or spell. The 8th level power is far more powerful than 4th level Wall of Fire considering you can target a specific energy type based on target creature. Wall of Force?
In any case it seems irrelevant, the 8th level Metamagic Mastery seems to be the run away power that everyone wants.
-- Dennis