Chymor's page

I also suspect that posting a long point-by-point list of commentary on a variety of topics may not get as much reaction from Jason as an individual thread on a specific topic.

I like to see clear comprehensive lists like this with musings and suggestions. It's a lot better than everyone flooding 10 to 30 posts across the boards the first time they give feedback. I myself probably started way too many threads, which went by unnoticed generally.

When Jason reads posts like these and identifies an issue he wants more feedback on, he's likely to start a new thread about it. Like the one about spells. Which reminds me... I should get cracking with those. ;)

People having trouble remembering 1-2-1

A minor annoyance to the DM (me), but I'm watching the movement in any case for AoO, so I'll correct if there's a mistake. 1-1-1 is friendlier, but in the end I'd prefer hexes.

--Statting up NPCs, including skill points too fiddly for DMs statting up monsters/NPS (but not PCs--most players seem to like the customization)

But I *like* fiddling with my NPCs! No wait, that sounded odd... :)

--Grappling

Pathfinder fixes this.

--Turning

I have used Unearthed Arcana variant (static turn DC vs. check), but Pathfinder remake of the ability is way better.

--Calculating XP from CR

Never been a problem and I use the FR variant (individual XP).

--AoOs too confusing/too many instances to remember

I agree that there's perhaps too many different actions that provoke AoO. The list needs to be trimmed down a bit.

--Too many iterative attacks, contributing (along with SR, miss chance, crit confirmation, etc.) to too much die-rolling

Concealment miss chance is a bit annoying, but you can pry iterative attacks from my cold dead fingers! :)

--Players' turns taking too long to resolve due to multiple die-rolls often being required

Indecisiveness makes turns long. Not knowing the math makes turns longer. Teach your players to calculate the effects of buffs and feats while others are taking their turn. Easier than ThAC0! (Which was simplicity in itself, btw. I'll never understand why some people had difficulties with it.)

--CoDzilla (though only if deliberately and expertly exploited)

This I agree with. The problem with divine casters is that they know all spells for their class automatically, even from splatbooks the DM decides to add to the campaign later. The amount of available combos is staggering. Divine casters really need "spells known" tables.

--Infinite summoning (A summons B summons C summons...)

This needs to be addressed although it's rarely a problem with reasonable players. Calling needs to be difficult and time-consuming. Gate needs to be split into two: the portal spell to other planes and the uber conjuration ritual.

--Fighters not keeping up as the party level increases

My single high level melee player plays a fighter/barbarian/battlerager and he's a melee monster punishing anything that stays close to get a full attack. However, pure fighters need help. More and better feats is my answer. Especially feat chains that end up in good and useful feats and not "Great" Cleaves.

--Scry-Buff-Teleport-Fly combo repeated ad nauseum, and campaign-breaking spells/magic in general (for some this includes resurrection et al)

Scrying is too easy and reliable. Overall, there's a lot of spells that still need work although Pathfinder addresses many issues in A3. I remember Monte Cook saying something along the lines that spells 3.0 PHB were a bit of rush job and it still shows.

--Identify

Identify should be Knowledge Arcana check.

--XP for crafting

Pathfinder fixes it well although I never had issues with this. I thought it to be a neat way to make PCs think twice about the really expensive items and spells even if they had the gold to make them.

--buffing etc., especially remembering which buffs/effects/modifiers are affecting whom and for how long

Some are problematic, some are not. It's more of an issue with individual spells (like heroes feast), unnamed bonuses and spell durations which need to be reconsidered. This also relates to divine casters knowing ALL spells and combos.

--useless skills (use rope, craft [baskets], etc. YMMV)

Pathfinder will fix this.

--familiars and animal companions often crappy but time-consuming if used in combat

Pathfinder fixes.

--save or die

Pathfinder... :D

--suckitude of multi-class spellcasters

I never considered this to be a huge problem. You trade big spells into a plethora of small spells. It's a choice and nowadays you can alleviate CL problems with feats like Practiced Spellcaster and multiple Prestige Classes.

--HP can vary too much due to fact that they are rolled (YMMV)

Give everybody max die result, if it's a problem. No variation (yay!) and longer combats too.

--Spell prep takes too long; spell-list resource management too cumbersome

Again those all-knowing divine casters and their exponential options!

--Necessity and ubiquity of munchkin magic items (Belt of Strength +3 etc.);

Munchkin = rule breaking and true here too. There is a reason why all stat increasing items and spells are in even numbers*. However, this should be spelled out in DMG.

* +1 CON item would make only 50% of people healthier in game, which is strange. What about wishes and level increases you say!? Special cases and 5 + 5 = 10 ;)

inclusion of lots of magic items in the CR math

Not a problem when the DM knows this. CR is a guideline, not a numeric promise of a balanced and exciting fight. It's a DM tool that he should learn to use.

--DR as a primary focus of most combats past a certain level (golf-bag syndrome)

If you lack a correct weapon, be creative and use that Power Attack. 3.5 DR numbers are low and easy to plow through.

My 2 cents...

D4 method:

D6 = 1D4+2
D8 = 1D4+4
D10 = 1D4+6
D12 = 1D4+8

We also use the above method for pretty much exactly the same reasons.

More hitpoints make slightly longer fights and it seems to me that Pathfinder already tries to do this. Pathfinder PCs have slightly more hitpoints and healing which makes combat last a bit longer and reduces the need to rest often.

For NPCs and monsters I use static hitpoints:

D4 = 2
D6 = 4
D8 = 6
D10 = 8
D12 = 10

This way PCs have 0.5 x lvl more hitpoints on the average, but I can live with that. :)

Keeping track of constantly changing abilities

More options are good. But we're also trying to play a fun game, and part of that is keeping it moving. As much as I enjoy playing with my players, half of them are extremely bad at addition. This makes many aspects of the game difficult as they try to add more than 2 numbers together (flanking, aid, bull's strength, etc).
<snipped the example>
The constant changes are not only possible, but encouraged since maintaining a supply of rage points can allow the character to be more effective. A 'waste' by spending large number of rage points when no enemies threaten is something most players simply won't do, nor would I expect them to. But it creates a book keeping nightmare. I'd like to see the system avoid that if possible.

I agree that this is a pretty bad problem.

How about changing Rage cost to 2 points/round no matter the "degree" of Rage? Barbarians would just use the best rage available like in 3.5.

Using this change, a 1st level barbarian with CON 14 would rage 4 rounds per day, i.e. a single combat, but the number goes up rapidly when the character levels up.

If you want to keep Find the Path, make it find the path *out* of something not *to* something. Change the description like this:

"The recipient of this spell can find the shortest, most
direct physical route out of a large specified location,
such as a city, keep, lake, or dungeon. The locale can
be outdoors or underground, as long as it is large.
For example, a hunter’s cabin is not large enough, but
a logging camp is. Find the path works with respect to
the subject of the spell and the specified locale the subject occupies.
The spell works only on the plane the target is in at the time of casting.

The spell enables the subject to sense the correct
direction that will eventually lead it out of the specified locale,
indicating at appropriate times the exact path to follow
or physical actions to take. For example, the spell
enables the subject to sense what cavern corridor to take
when a choice presents itself. The spell ends when the
subject exits the specified locale or the duration expires, whichever
comes first.

Find the path can be used to remove the
subject and its companions from the effect of a maze
spell in a single round, specifying the maze as the locale.

This divination is keyed to the recipient, not its
companions, and its effect does not predict or allow for
the actions of creatures (including guardians)."

For what it's worth, I vote for going back to 3.5's version of wish.

Same here. High level character/NPC conversion could get annoying with this change, the players who invested in wishes would feel shafted and 3.5 version has synergy with level increases (5+5 = 10).

Quick question for the crowd,

Assuming that GMW got fixed up a bit so that the spell does not allow you to punch through DR, what does this mean for the DR rules as they currently stand.

This change would remove the worst offender of my rules sensibilities. It makes sense that a temporary buff from a spell is not mighty enough to overcome DR.

Combine this with Kirth Gersen's expanded table above and I'm happy.

----------------
DR /+1 (magic)
DR /+2 or silver
DR /+3 or cold iron
DR /+4 or <alignment>
DR /+5 or adamantine
DR /+6 (epic)
----------------

I also agree that enhancement bonuses should not affect weapon type-based DR. A rapier will slip through skeletons ribs, no matter how sharp it is.

I'd still house-rule DR/magic so that each +1 shaves 5 DR off the total, but that might be too much for the basic rule?

I was originally going to voice my dislike of Combat Feat mechanic, but then I found out that it's already going to go away. Should've checked the forums before diving into the rules. :D

There aren't many issues left:

Combat Expertise
I assume this change is made to curb Fighter ACs due to Armor Training? Fighting defensively is -4/+2 as a full round action and this feat *is* better, but INT 13 fighters are going to get one less AC with the feat... It seems a bit off, but this is not a biggie.

Deft Shield
Why the name change? After all, this is slightly altered Improved Shield Bash. In my opinion feat names should not be changed in order to keep conversion as easy as possible.

Double Slice
The fluff description contradicts the benefit. First one says off-hand weapon and the latter just one light weapon (no mention of the off-hand). So if you're wielding two light weapons you could get the feat bonus with your main hand? Not the intention perhaps, but it's not clear...

Furthermore, I don't like this feat because it forces a light off-hand weapon on dual-wielders. Two medium sized weapons are a fantasy staple and this feat makes it even more painful choice, especially because...

Two-Weapon Rend
has Double slice as prerequisite. Please replace Double Slice with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting for example.

The only down side I can see is the potential for it to get a bit difficult to keep track of in the midst of a big fight with demons, for example, all of which have different DR, when all the characters with different "plusses" on their weapons.

I can only speak for myself, but we've been playing with this rule since a few months after 3.5 release, and I've never had problems with this.

If I have problems remembering PC details, I make little cheat sheets (post-its) about theirs skills/abilities/items/whatnot at the beginning of each session.

I also just realized that my post above should've gone to "New Rules Suggestions" -forum... :( Should I crosspost it there, or is that frowned upon?

Adding my 2 coppers...

My suggestion for DR system (from my current house rules):

Unchanged:

x/-
--> Should be unpenetrable DR as currently.

x/bludgeon;slah;pierce
--> Should also stay as is. However this type DR should never be higher than 10.

Changed (everything else):

x/magic(special)
--> X gets reduced by 5 per each +1 the weapon has. If special is specified ignore the DR completely when using a weapon filling the special requirement.

Example 1:
Werewolf DR: 10/magic(silver)

normal weapon --> reduce 10 from damage
+1 weapon --> reduce 5
+2 or more --> ignore DR
any silver --> ignore DR

Example 2:
Iron Golem DR: 15/magic(adamantine)

normal weapon --> reduce 15 from damage
+1 weapon --> reduce 10
+2 weapon --> reduce 5
+3 or more --> ignore DR
any adamantine --> ignore DR

If multiple specials are needed, you need both to ignore the DR. If you have only one of required specials, count the weapon as +1 higher.

Using DR like this, I'd personally also modify the DR numbers on some creatures a bit higher. Not as high as in 3.0, but a bit depending on the creature. Some (great wyrms, demiliches, etc.) should even be fully vulnerable only to +5 weapons. That is, have a DR of 25/magic.

PS: This also scales to Epic levels. DR: 10/Epic is just DR: 35/magic (+7 weapon)...

I don't think this is a mistake. Like mentioned above, spell-like abilities use Charisma and this makes sense as they are like mini-sorceries.

I believe Gnome Ninja found a rules consistency issue in rogue magic talents. They should also use Charisma.

All that said, DCs of low CHA wizards are pretty lame. Maybe Wizard (and Rogue) spell-likes should be exceptions to the general rule...

BARD

1)
Distraction is a poor name for an ability that helps your comrades see illusions for what they are.

2)
Fascinate description starts off by stating that it's usable with music or poetics. However, the last sentence contradicts this by saying it can be used with any type of Perform.

3)
Deadly Performance, is broken as written. Save or die 20 times per day with a Perform based DC? This gets easily out of hand by stacking skill boosting feats, items and spells. Remember Forgotten Realms Spelldancer?

FIGHTER

Armor Mastery is sort of sudden on 19th level. A strong full blown ability that suits fighters, but some sort of progression for earlier levels would be nice. Maybe 1/- and 3/- included in the two earlier Armor Training improvements on levels 11 and 15?

PALADIN

Lay on Hands doesn't heal enough per single use to be useful in combat at higher levels (until you get Heal). Maybe paladins should get an ability to burn multiple uses of lay on hands at one go (full-round action?). Two on 6th lvl, three on 9th, etc... ? Heal would cost 6 uses with this progression, but it's still more hit points + extras than 6 uses of regular lay on hands.

ROGUE

1)
Trapfinding is a sacred cow ready for slaughter. Make Trapfinding a scaling bonus to Perception (like Trap Sense) when searching for Traps and adjust trap DCs accordingly. It's horribly stupid that a 1st level rogue can find a DC 21 trap, but a 20th level ranger with Perception +40 cannot. No matter how long the ranger searches for it!

2)
Skill Mastery should scale with permanent INT gains.

BARBARIAN

1)
Permanent CON changes should modify the rage point total retroactively. This could already be the case, but it's not pointed out clearly.

2)
Rage Powers are swift actions unless otherwise noted. Animal Fury doesn't state which action it uses, so RAW it's a bonus attack as a swift action every round. If this is intentional, please consider changing it to a generic unarmed strike (that could be a headbutt, elbow, knee, kick etc), as rapid, ankle-biting barbarians are rather silly.

3)
Clear Mind is listed as supernatural, but (Ex) fits the concept better. Also, consider a name change as using "rage" to "clear" your mind is a bit strange to me.

4)
Increased Damage Reduction rage point cost seems a bit expensive. At level 16 you can add 3/- to DR for one round, or +8 AC bonus for six rounds with Guarded Stance. This seems to be a bit off, but I haven't done the math on it.

5)
Guarded Stance is another poor name choice. Raging in a guarded stance is odd.

6)
Elemental Rage is a bit too magical ability for Barbarians in my opinion.

7)
Renewed Vigor is also Supernatural. (Ex) would be a better fit. I see this as gritting ones teeth, ignoring the pain and jumping back into fray with "renewed vigor". No reason why Barbarians shouldn't be able to do this in a dead magic zone for example.

8)
Roused Anger becomes useless on lvl 17. Useless class features suck, so this should be modified.

9) Mighty Rage is too expensive. Under 3.5 rules a lvl 20 Barbarian with CON 30 (in rage) can rage 6x13 = 69 rounds. In PF the same character has 162 rage points = 40 rounds of mighty rage. This assuming he doesn't use other rage powers at all. Barbarians should be able to mighty rage *and* use the other rage powers a bit more. I think a rage cost of 3 is more in line.

EDIT:
I just wanted to point out that I for one like rage points. It's added book keeping, but it's necessary to break rage/day into finer pieces in order to give barbarian extra options they can and would actually use.

Hello all,

This post is my first on the forums and my series of feedback on Pathfinder Alpha 3 will soon follow on the appropriate categories.

First, let me thank everybody in Pathfinder team (and playtesters) for an already excellent revision of 3.5 ruleset. Almost all of the changes are in the right direction (imo of course), yet not too intrusive as to change the game too much. Backwards compatibility is highly appreciated. Also, the notion of public alpha/beta releases for the ruleset is a brilliant idea. Whoever though of this first deserves a gold-plated d20. :D

Feedback on Races:

ELF + 1/2 ELF :

Keen Senses
--> Drop the door detection ability. Elves have heightened senses and have bonus to Perception, so a tingling door sense doesn't make sense. It's a silly holdover from old D&D and an annoying thing for a DM to track.

GNOME:

Defensive Training
--> A minor quibble, but the name doesn't fit gnome fluff very well (unlike with dwarves).

1/2 ORC:

Orc Ferocity
--> Will Diehard feat replace this?

HALFLING

Languages
--> Why halfling societies are so in tune with demonic forces that a large percentage of them learn Abyssal? ;) Please replace this.