Save or be mostly dead

[versatal]

I have seen some of the spell changes, such as Wail of the Banshee, and have a proposition.

Instead of just doing damage how about this:

Whenever you have a save or die effect, instead of dying outright you are put in the dying state, -1 HP. Each round thereafter, you have another save (haven't worked out the DC), if you fail 3 in a row you are completely dead, if you make one, you are stabilized, and the spell's effects end.

thoughts?

[versatal]

Sorry, thought this got eaten and posted something similar in another thread.

[Wrath]

Wanted to bump this idea somewhat.

In our game we like the challenge of save or die. However it does create issues with a character you've been playing for a number of years to die on one roll.

We tried the new rules but felt it underpowered these otherwise decisive combat options.

At their core, a save or die spell really means dropping a player from an encounter immediately. It means the players have to spend resources trying to prevent these or to return the player back to life soon enough to contribute again.

The mechanic suggested above will do the same thing but gives the character a chance to not die and possibly lose the character forever.

I further suggest that more powerful versions of save or die spells drop you closer to the death mark, so you get less opportunity for recovery.

This allows the affected players to save again, or other players to cast a heal, or even a dispel magic to prevent ongoing effects (if you consider the hp loss as an ongoing effect of the initial death spell).

We felt this kept these spells damn scary without being a catalyst for TPK's or player dissatisfaction. It certainly seems to work well enough for our Age of Worms campaign where the players are currently 13th level and have some of these things used against them (and it keeps our evil, death effect using cleric happy as well).

Hoping this at least gets a look at in the beta or some more aknowledgement in the threads.

Cheers

[Phlebas]

IMC we house rule any 'death' effect leaves the victim unconscious and bleeding. as a DM it makes it so much easier to put scary encounters in without worrying about TPK's or lots of Raise Dead required for high level play

I personally wouldn't put anymore 'save or' effects in after this - taking someone from full to unconscious in one arcane utterance is powerful enough.

i realise this does gimp spellcasters a bit, but at the level they throw save or die effects around they don't need any help...

[lastknightleft]

I actually love this idea, save or die means instant drop to -1 hp combined with my hybrid 3e/4e dying rules works great.

[Selgard]

The problem with SoD spells isn't so much them being leveled against characters, but is how it effects later game play with regards to the player's opponents.

With the radical HP shift in 3rd edition (coming from 2nd), but with Evocation spells having identical damage as before, SoD's become the necessary way for Wizards (and other full casters) to actually do meaningful "damage" in combat. After level 10 or so damage spells peter out in effectiveness leaving the full caster either to do battlefield control, or SoD's.

Your proposition still effectively creates an SoD environment. Save or Be Mostly dead is also Save or Be Coup d'Grace'd (sp?). Save or have your throat slit.

Player saves tend to be far higher than monster/bbeg saves and they also tend to be far better buffed against the death effects- and the DC's themselves tend to be lower due to the disparity in PC and Critter ability scores/feats.

Your solution actually just puts the rules back where they were before Paizo changed them- only with the slightly added complexity of having the PC's slit throats afterwards.

[JoelF847]

This idea has been tossed about for a while now. I prefer to use the standard 3.5 dying rules with it, but have different death effects bring you closer to actual death, based on their strength (which also differentiates them somewhat.)

For example:

Phantasmal killer puts you at -1
Slay living at -3
Death spell at -5
Finger of death or destruction at -7
Implosion or wail of the banshee at -9

[Wrath]

Actually Selgard, I was looking at this totally from the point of view of my players. Your concern is not without merit, but I've never found it to be too big a deal. Like all good high level heros, most of my high level named baddies have protections from death magic or alternate forms of escape available to them or equally high saves.

As for non named baddies, i have no qualms about having them dropped in one shot and often use them as a way of sucking up the death spells from my party so they're not around when the main guy comes along. It's all about planning for this contingency in my games, however I do understand this doesn't work that way in other games.

We'll run with this for a while longer and give more feedback from our games and let you know how it runs. Given we have a high level cleric who is evil and uses death magic alot, and I'm playing a campaign where the baddies have many SoD effects coming through soon, I should be able to get some good feedback at least.

Cheers