Case Example of Monk 10 vs CR 10 Red Dragon

[Derringer]

I am not a fan of the one-on-one comparisons for defining viability of a class, but with “sucking chest wound post” about the monk I thought I would throw out something iconic - a basic comparison of a 10th level Pathfinder Monk versus a CR10 juvenile red dragon. This encounter matches the climactic encounter the whole 8th level party had last session – but is now taken on by the solo 10th level monk.

10th level human monk with high fantasy stats
Str 14, Dex 20 (24 with belt), Con 12, Int 9, Wis 16 (20 with headband), cha 7
AC 34 with ring protect +2 and amulet nat armor +2 and mage armor potion and magic vestment oil level 8
HP 71 with toughness
Attacks +16/+16/+11 (with weapon finesse and greater magic weapon potion level 8)
Damage 2d8+4 (with improved natural attack and greater magic weapon potion level 8)
Saves Fort+10, Ref+17, Wil+15 (with cloak of resist +3)
Using Gorgon Fist and Medusa Wrath
Acrobatics for Jump +30 (+50 with ki point)

-So dragon lands on the second story roof of the Inn in town and from his comfy perch begins torching nearby buildings.
-The monk uses a ki point to ensure he can make the DC 44 jump to the top of the stable and another from the stable to the roof of the Inn landing 15 ft from the dragon in total defense.
-The confident beasts makes a sound that must be a laugh moves forward for a bite attack but at +24 he still needs a 16 or better and is surprised as he snaps only air.
-The monk using Gorgon Fist deftly strikes a pressure point in the beast’s neck as it pulls back at +16 to hit versus AC24. He does 13 points damage and staggers the Dragon.
-The dragon is shocked at the power of this strike but a little befuddled but tries to bite again and hits for 16 points damage.
-The monk follows up with a Medusa’s Wrath attack and uses a ki point for an extra attack on top of that. Total of +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11. Four of his strikes land doing a total of 52 points of damage.
-The dragon is now down to less than 2/3 full hit points but is angry and ready for a full attack action. He hits with the bite for 16 damage, as well as one claw and one wing for another 15 total. The monk is down below half hit points but holding on.
-The monk uses gorgon fist again and connects for another 13 points damage and once again staggering the beast.
-Now down to 90 hit points the dragon is concerned and lifts off suffering an AoO which unfortunately misses.
-The monk has no credible attack at range so uses another 2 ki points to heal himself 10
-The dragon roars and swoops by breathing fire on our poor monk and has the nerve to be surprised when the monk skips away with no damage as he only needs to roll a 7 to make the reflex save and has improved evasion.
-Once again with little to do, the monk uses two more ki points to heal another 10, then steps off the burning building landing smoothly on the ground.
-Outraged and certainly a bit foolhardy, the dragon swoops down and lands next to the monk making a bite attack and hitting for 16 points damage.
-The monk hits again with the Gorgon Fist doing 13 damage and staggering the dragon
-The dragon foolishly sticks in and tries a bite and misses.
-The monk does another Medusa’s wrath using another ki point but only hits with 3 this time doing 39.

At this point the dragon is at 38 hit points and the monk is at 28. The dragon has had enough and withdraws living to fight another day (as it did in our session with the 8th level party)

Yes, this is artificial. No, the dragon isn’t supped up – it is vanilla from the MM and overconfident. Could the dragon win easily win with some luck – yes? Could you run an encounter like this with the dragon mopping up the monk by using very strategic battle choices – yep.

But this is a monk solo against a dragon! These are very realistic results of what could happen, which to me show a very heroic and playable monk as is - certainly someone who can contribute to a party in a combat role.

I do think the potions of mage armor, magic vestment and greater magic weapon all show that it is too expensive to get these enhancements that others have easily. I also note that the wholeness of body is a little underpowered…but other than that the Pathfinder monk is fine.

[fliprushman]

Thanks for posting this. This is a good playtest and shows where a monk excells and fails. I do agree that the healing is a little underpowered. How much did your equipment cost you total?

[Gurubabaramalamaswami]

I don't think mage armor and magic vestment would stack.

[Nameless]

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:

I don't think mage armor and magic vestment would stack.

IIRC, mage armor gives an armor bonus, and magic vestment gives an enhancement bonus to existing armor (treating clothes as having an armor bonus of +0), so you're right, I don't think they would stack. A potion of shield could be substituted, though.

EDIT: I am wrong. Potions of shield aren't allowed. I still think this is viable, since the playtester could have used more artificial ways to boost AC, but chose not to (ie: potions of barkskin and shield of faith instead of the ring of protection and the amulet of natural armor.

[Eric Tillemans]

I'm starting to like the Gorgon's Fist and Medusa's Wrath combo. I can also see a monk at higher levels picking up Vital Strike - with their high base damage that feat can go a long ways for a monk. Then top it off with just the basics of the ki pool (extra movement, +4 AC, or 1 extra attack) and monks are definitely improved under Pathfinder.

They just need normal priced enchantments for unarmed strikes and some sort of damage boost with monk weapons and they'll be a solid class.

[Rezdave]

Nameless wrote:

IIRC, mage armor gives an armor bonus, and magic vestment gives an enhancement bonus to existing armor

If mage armor was cast first a generous DM might stack them, arguing that the magic vestment was enhancing the mage armor rather than then clothing, but it's a stretch.

Rez

[hogarth]

You should've thrown in some Stunning Fist attacks in there on the Medusa Fist rounds. They're not terribly likely to succeed, but you've got 10 of them, so why not?

[Jal Dorak]

A decent playtest that highlights some of the monks old and new abilities (looks like ki points are quite useful and flavorful).

However, I am curious how this fight would go with a slightly more crafty dragon, using grappling, flyby attacks and such, would the monk fare as well? Would the new CMB help the monk or the dragon?

My favorite tactic with dragons is the good old 20d6 falling damage as they drop a grappled opponent - and they say instant death effects are out of the game...

[primemover003]

Yep Mage Armor and Magic Vestment don't stack, You'd have the +4 armor bonus of the Mage Armor overlapping the +2 Armor (enhancement) bonus to your clothes.

But I don't disagree this is a very good playtest of the Monk against what is usually always a nasty fight, a dragon! I like how you also showcased the ability to negotiate obstacles by Jumping up to the rooftops.

A monk like any non-spellcaster is going to rely on their equipment and items to boost them through encounters. One of my players frequently plays a monk and has a ready stash of Mage Armor potions and either Magic Weapon or Magic Fang oils (or Greater). Magic Tattoos of the above are also very popular.

Lacking any ranged attacks is a problem of the monk and my players frequently stock up on Necklaces of Fireballs, Bags of Boulders, Beads of Force, or Iron Bands... or when they play ninja style monks they use poison shuriken.

[Derringer]

fliprushman wrote:

How much did your equipment cost you total?

Thanks for the comments so far.

Equipment cost
16000 for headband
16000 for belt
9000 for cloak
8000 for ring
8000 for amulet
2500 for potions

Total 59500 compared to average wealth 62,000 on page 123 of alpha 3

[Derringer]

primemover003 wrote:

Yep Mage Armor and Magic Vestment don't stack, You'd have the +4 armor bonus of the Mage Armor overlapping the +2 Armor (enhancement) bonus to your clothes.

I have been putting "armor" bonus and "armor enhancement" bonus in two separate stackable categories since 3.5 came out with barkskin that had "natural armor enhancement" bonus that stacks with "natural armor".

[Derringer]

primemover003 wrote:

Lacking any ranged attacks is a problem of the monk and my players frequently stock up on Necklaces of Fireballs, Bags of Boulders, Beads of Force, or Iron Bands... or when they play ninja style monks they use poison shuriken.

I had an interesting thought about the shuriken. If you modified the rules to allow all monk weapons to use monk unarmed damage (as was suggested by several others previously on other threads), then including shuriken in that list would give monks a reasonable (if still short range) ranged attack.

*Not to mention the sai - but honestly - who throws a sai?*

[Infamous Jum]

Derringer wrote:

*Not to mention the sai - but honestly - who throws a sai?*

Starts with a T and ends with a Urtles. Also that Tacos chick, the one from the funny books.

More to the topic on hand, I would agree that monks need to be able to do a little more healing, and I really feel that they need more ki points all around.

[primemover003]

Derringer wrote:

primemover003 wrote:

Yep Mage Armor and Magic Vestment don't stack, You'd have the +4 armor bonus of the Mage Armor overlapping the +2 Armor (enhancement) bonus to your clothes.

I have been putting "armor" bonus and "armor enhancement" bonus in two separate stackable categories since 3.5 came out with barkskin that had "natural armor enhancement" bonus that stacks with "natural armor".

That would work if you were enhancing an item or yourself... but Mage armor is a spell effect and really doesn't fit the example of the amulet of Nat Armor or the barkskin enhancing a Nat AC of zero. Magic vestment already works exactly like barkskin in that it'll enhance your clothes or armor. It shouldn't work with an intangible armor bonus.

You'd be better served with a Haste potion for +1 AC/ref save and a Blur or Displacement Potion for some miss chance.