With the current wording of Devastating it allows a warrior with a weapon with a x3 or x4 critical hit multiplier to do more damage with a single standard action than they could with a full round action (Backswing). The warrior can use this feat every round.
It's an expensive, high-level feat, and it should be awesome. But not quite this awesome.
The feat needs some type of limiting factor. So here are three thoughts on going about it:
1.) Instead of a critical the feat just does double damage (extra damage dice not multiplied, per usual). In case of a critical add multipiers normally.
This brings the damage under the average damage for a Backswing. It also opens the door for powers activated on a critical.
This is my favorite option.
2.) A combat feat cannot be used in the round proceeding a Devastating Blow.
This adds a small risk/reward to using the feat, since it hampers your next turn. That scythe is still awfully impressive.
3.) Devasting Blow switched to a full round action.
It would still a worthwhile feat, because you'll do better damagge with a greataxe or way better with a scythe. Greatsword wielders may waver, because the damage is about the same or less than Backswing, and it really only gives an advantage when facing DR that you can't bypass, or if you have an advantage on your next attack roll, but not the ones after it (invisibility). On the downside, one of the aspects I liked best about this feat was that it was a standard action.
And before anyone posts that Devasting Blow can't possibly be as potent as I'm suggesting, here's an example using an 11th level barbarian (base strength 22, greater rage bringing it to 28) and the average damage he deals each round against a target with the given AC.
Scythe regular full attack
AC20 47.61
AC25 34.155
AC30 18.63
Scythe with Devastating Blow
AC20 68.4
AC25 57.6
AC30 39.6
Scythe with Backswing
AC20 56.951
AC25 40.779
AC30 21.761
Greataxe full attack
AC20 49.335
AC25 35.393
AC30 19.305
Greataxe with Devastating Blow
AC20 55.575
AC25 46.8
AC30 32.175
Greataxe with Backswing
AC20 59.759
AC25 42.785
AC30 22.799
Greatsword full attack
AC20 50.6
AC25 36.3
AC30 19.8
Greatsword with Devastating Blow
AC20 38
AC25 32
AC30 22
Greatsword with Backswing
AC20 61.52
AC25 44.044
AC30 23.46
Isn't Devastating Blow a Combat Feat? I don't have my stuff in front of me now, so I can't say for sure, but if it is then the Combat Feat mechanics already limit it. You can't, for instance, use Devastating Blow with Mobility.
Pneumonica wrote: Isn't Devastating Blow a Combat Feat? I don't have my stuff in front of me now, so I can't say for sure, but if it is then the Combat Feat mechanics already limit it. You can't, for instance, use Devastating Blow with Mobility. The problem is that it's a standard action that you can use every single round to do more damage than if you used a full round action (such as Backswing), not that it can be combined with another feat. So, no, being a combat feat does not put a meaningful limit on its use.
Volsung wrote: Pneumonica wrote: Isn't Devastating Blow a Combat Feat? I don't have my stuff in front of me now, so I can't say for sure, but if it is then the Combat Feat mechanics already limit it. You can't, for instance, use Devastating Blow with Mobility. The problem is that it's a standard action that you can use every single round to do more damage than if you used a full round action (such as Backswing), not that it can be combined with another feat. So, no, being a combat feat does not put a meaningful limit on its use. Yes it does if you can't use any of your other combat abilities in the round. Although I dislike the mechanic, it limits exactly how much bonus you can get in a single round. For a Fighter especially, it's a very meaningful limitation. Also, while you do more damage per hit, you do no damage if you miss. With an attack sequence, you have a higher probability of doing at least some damage.
Pneumonica wrote: Yes it does if you can't use any of your other combat abilities in the round. Although I dislike the mechanic, it limits exactly how much bonus you can get in a single round. For a Fighter especially, it's a very meaningful limitation. That's a bit like saying "3.5 Polymorph has limited usefulness because you can't cast Stone Shape at the same time." :)
Pneumonica wrote: Also, while you do more damage per hit, you do no damage if you miss. With an attack sequence, you have a higher probability of doing at least some damage. Generally speaking, an 11th leve fighter or barbarian doesn't have much trouble hitting with his best attack.
Pneumonica wrote: Volsung wrote: Pneumonica wrote: Isn't Devastating Blow a Combat Feat? I don't have my stuff in front of me now, so I can't say for sure, but if it is then the Combat Feat mechanics already limit it. You can't, for instance, use Devastating Blow with Mobility. The problem is that it's a standard action that you can use every single round to do more damage than if you used a full round action (such as Backswing), not that it can be combined with another feat. So, no, being a combat feat does not put a meaningful limit on its use. Yes it does if you can't use any of your other combat abilities in the round. Although I dislike the mechanic, it limits exactly how much bonus you can get in a single round. For a Fighter especially, it's a very meaningful limitation. Also, while you do more damage per hit, you do no damage if you miss. With an attack sequence, you have a higher probability of doing at least some damage. I don't think you understand the problem I'm describing.
A fighter's at will standard action attack should not be able to outperform the the same fighter's at will full round attack.
The combat feat aspect, that only one can be used at a time, doesn't even come into play. Heck, I even compared two combat feats (Devastating Blow and Backswing).
If that's not working for you, then try this:
The Tome of Battle introduces two types of abilities for warriors: maneuvers and stances.
Stances provide useful benefits, sometimes pair with a penalty. They are usually a little more powerful than a feat available at their level. The work almost exactly like combat feats.
Maneuvers allow, among other things, powerful attacks as standard actions, in line with the kind of damage Devasting Blow can do in the hands of a greataxe or scythe wielder. However maneuvers are abilities that can per used once per encounter.
So, is it a good idea to have feats that powerful that can be used every single round if the player so desires?
There are plenty of complaints about power creep in the Tome of Battle. Should we have an ability that exceeds what that book can produce at that character level in damage output in PFRPG? I don't mind it being competetive with the Tome of Battle, but it's current form is too readily abused.
I would have to add my voice to those wishing a change to this feat, particularly if the concept of Combat feats (only one in use at a time) has been scrapped for the Beta.
A x2 multiplier is perfectly reasonable for this effect, but for weapons that have a x3 or x4 modifier, it can fairly easily outperform a full attack action in terms of damage, and uses the highest attack bonus.
My vote would be for a full round action that does double damage.
Volaran wrote: I would have to add my voice to those wishing a change to this feat, particularly if the concept of Combat feats (only one in use at a time) has been scrapped for the Beta.
A x2 multiplier is perfectly reasonable for this effect, but for weapons that have a x3 or x4 modifier, it can fairly easily outperform a full attack action in terms of damage, and uses the highest attack bonus.
My vote would be for a full round action that does double damage.
What if it had some sort of penalty to hit, or provoked attacks of opportunity first?
AoO would make the most sense to me. The warm-up on a swing like that could probably allow a rouge or another fighter to get a good swing in. At least then they'd take damage for every devastating swing.
I like the AoO causing full-round action idea. (Edit:) For regular crit damage whether its x2 or x3.
Volaran wrote: I would have to add my voice to those wishing a change to this feat, particularly if the concept of Combat feats (only one in use at a time) has been scrapped for the Beta.
A x2 multiplier is perfectly reasonable for this effect, but for weapons that have a x3 or x4 modifier, it can fairly easily outperform a full attack action in terms of damage, and uses the highest attack bonus.
My vote would be for a full round action that does double damage.
That's basically what Vital Strike does. Then there's a feat that does double damage as a FRA and a point of Con damage. That would make devastating blow suck.
eggellis wrote: Volaran wrote: I would have to add my voice to those wishing a change to this feat, particularly if the concept of Combat feats (only one in use at a time) has been scrapped for the Beta.
A x2 multiplier is perfectly reasonable for this effect, but for weapons that have a x3 or x4 modifier, it can fairly easily outperform a full attack action in terms of damage, and uses the highest attack bonus.
My vote would be for a full round action that does double damage.
That's basically what Vital Strike does. Then there's a feat that does double damage as a FRA and a point of Con damage. That would make devastating blow suck. Vital Strike has the same attack bonus requirement, and no other feat prerequisites. It is a full-round action, costs the lowest-bonus iterative attack, and would seem to be the better choice, for instance, for two-weapon fighters. For characters with a full attack bonus, it would also scale in power when they hit BAB +16. Speaking of BAB +16. At that point, improved Vital Strike becomes available for a third roll of the damage dice for every landed hit (minus the two lowest-bonus iterative attacks.)
Rather than make me think that this means Devastating Blow is too powerful, it just draws my attention to another feat that I don't like. Fair enough. Still, seems reasonable to make Devastating Blow a Full-Round action when comparing the two. Make it the better choice for those characters who chose to fight with the higher crit-multiplier weapons, but doesn't allow them to move in the same round.
A quick glance does not find the second feat you mention in the Alpha 3, but I would be perfectly happy with that description _as_ Devestating Blow as well.
The main issue here is that this Feat is basing it's damage on a mechanic that can grow very high, as opposed to a specific added amount.
This means two things:
1. Damage can scale way out of control depending on the weapons you use. Some splatbook or campaign setting could suddenly break this feat beyond the intended limits (imagine a x5 weapon, etc).
2. This feat clearly takes advantage of one set of weapons over others. Maybe that's the point, but when you clearly make it so that not getting a higher multiplier means losing out on 50% of your potential damage... it's ridiculous. It's a no brainer.
...
For a "use every round if I want to", I'd skip the critical hit mechanic completely. Making all attacks a slightly neutered version of a crit isn't a good mechanic to go by.
Instead, just make it "Roll double damage. Double all damage done, similar to a critical hit, except for special effects like vorpal and burst effects".
This clearly sounds like the intention of the feat, and is quite good as something that can be done with a move action. Also, if they take away the Combat Feat limit, it could be used with Spring Attack, and be a very nice (albeit costly) combination here too.
...
As for other feats that do this kind of thing...
Deadly Stroke requires the Dazzling Display line, Greater Weapon Focus, and a flatfooted or stunned opponent. More feat cost and conditional requirement = extra Con damage.
Vital Strike only gives extra damage dice from the weapon itself. While this can suffer from the above problem, it's far, far less damage added overall. You can't boost the weapon damage beyond buying bigger weapons through Exotic Proficiency (or Monkey Grip, which is a questionable feat to begin with). I guess maybe a Half-Giant with Exotic Weapon Proficiency could abuse this a little, but we are still talking about around 10 extra damage, as opposed to Strength, Enhancements, etc.
Two Weapon Fighting can double this damage, but that's a whole feat line in and of itself, and honestly could use some help for any non-Rogue using it. Also, the fact that you can't use twohanded weapons means the extra damage is already limited, so you almost need to take advantage of two weapons to compete against a twohander using this feat.
I can see Devastating Blow work alongside these feats as long as it's limited in some way similar to these ones.
Your comparisons are a bit weak up top.
Greatsword should have Improved Crit and at least +2d6 from weapon specials by that level.
With that, Backswing with the greatsword is doing more damage per round than the Devastating Blow with the scythe. Get into things like Sneak Attack bonuses and it's far more in Backswing's favour. Use a Smite and Devastating Blow comes out on top. Get an extra attack from Haste or the Brb rage thing and Backswing rules again.
Then, you know, there's other options better for other situations.
It wouldn't hurt that much to have DB be a full attack, as it is pretty good when you optimise for it with huge flat bonuses on a scythe against moderately high AC opponents. Still, I reckon your Barbarian probably has better options at 11th than running about with a Scythe.
tussock wrote: Your comparisons are a bit weak up top.
Greatsword should have Improved Crit and at least +2d6 from weapon specials by that level.
With that, Backswing with the greatsword is doing more damage per round than the Devastating Blow with the scythe.
Against AC 20, maybe, but not against AC 30. And don't forget Power Attack on your list of things that help a Devastating Blow much more than Backswing.
EDIT: Actually, my calculations ended up a bit different than Volsung's.
I assumed that the barbarian's attack bonus was = +24:
+11 BAB
+9 Str
+2 weapon
+1 haste
+1 misc (bless, bard music, weapon focus, whatever)
The barbarian is hasted, using a +1 holy weapon with GMW cast on it. So the barbarian's Devastating Attack vs. a 25 AC foe (roughly average for a CR 11 creature) would be 87.45 power attacking (159 dmg * 55% chance of hitting) or 82.65 not power attacking (87 dmg * 95% chance of hitting).
The Improved Critical greatsword barbarian with Backswing does about 132.42 damage total with a hasted + Backswing full attack.
The all-or-nothing nature of Power Attack makes it much less useful.
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