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Nope, they're gone.
However, I've been suggesting for a while and gotten pretty good responses to the following so I'll try one more time...
The Lordzack Synergy Compromise
Skill synergies could work like Aid Another. You roll the first skill check (using the 'helping' skill) against DC 10 and if you succeed you get a +2 bonus on the second skill check with the main skill. Which skills synergize and under what conditions is up to the DM.
For example, succeed a DC10 skill check with Knowledge (nobility) and get a +2 to your Diplomacy check with the king.
I like it because it doesn't affect the calculation of skill ranks, rather it is situational. AND people who don't want to use it can just forget about it without worrying about their stats being wrong. Everybody gets what they want. How often can you say that?
In a way, I'll miss synergy bonuses. In another though, I won't...
With the number of static DC's that we have, not having that extra +2 does slow down a bit the ability, by a couple of levels, to gain the "automatic result" syndrome. Which I do like.
Nope, they're gone.
However, I've been suggesting for a while and gotten pretty good responses to the following so I'll try one more time...
The Lordzack Synergy Compromise
Skill synergies could work like Aid Another. You roll the first skill check (using the 'helping' skill) against DC 10 and if you succeed you get a +2 bonus on the second skill check with the main skill. Which skills synergize and under what conditions is up to the DM.For example, succeed a DC10 skill check with Knowledge (nobility) and get a +2 to your Diplomacy check with the king.
I like it because it doesn't affect the calculation of skill ranks, rather it is situational. AND people who don't want to use it can just forget about it without worrying about their stats being wrong. Everybody gets what they want. How often can you say that?
We had this conversation before, didn't we bud! ;O)
Put me down for liking this suggestion also. It's a simple, optional, extra dice roll that the DM has complete control over. This is good because the DM can suggest it/make it easier for vital skill checks and leave worrying about it for the not-so-important checks, to the players.
Well done!
Peace,
tfad
Bring back skill synergy in the beta. It makes sense!
I also fell in love with synergy bonuses when 3rd edition came out.
I also am content for them to be put to rest.
However, if they returned (in an non Lordzack compromise way), I suggest keeping the pre-req as 5 ranks - meaning 5th level earliest. Also suggest perhaps +1 per 5 ranks. This would be fairly close - putting them ahead of 3rd from 15th level to 22nd, then again from 25th on.
Synergy was a pain. Great concept in theory, but too hard to keep track of. Moreover they made it more diffcult for players and DM's to add skills to there game. I for one like the language sill in GR Black Company and the Tech skills in WOW OGL games. Both are in my game though only Tinkers and Rogues get the latter.
Did Alpha 3 keep the concept of getting new class skills every other level? While I think that was too much (maybe every 4 or 6 levels) it did a lot of what synergy used to do and made the characters more customizable (if that's a word).
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The Lordzack Synergy Compromise
Skill synergies could work like Aid Another. You roll the first skill check (using the 'helping' skill) against DC 10 and if you succeed you get a +2 bonus on the second skill check with the main skill. Which skills synergize and under what conditions is up to the DM.For example, succeed a DC10 skill check with Knowledge (nobility) and get a +2 to your Diplomacy check with the king.
PLEEEEEEEEZE .... [bump]
Like other posters, when I first started using 3E I thought Synnergy bonuses were cool. After a while though, I always fell into the routine of making sure I capitalized on them which caused a weird symmetry between characters.
Further down the road, as I tried to keep up with high level NPCs and also "proofing" the characters built by my players, the Synnergy bonuses really made me want to cry inside. In fact, it led me to create a database to keep track of all the skill points of every character at ever level just so I wouldn't have to remember and calculate all of it anymore.
So my vote belongs in the camp that thinks Skill Consolidation trumps Synnergy bonuses. After all, the Synnergy Check that is suggested above is already provided for in the rules by the DM's Best Friend mechanism. Let this annoying and record-keeping-intensive rule RIP please. Ad hoc boosts as creativity, opportunity, and DM permission allow are sufficient.
Did Alpha 3 keep the concept of getting new class skills every other level? While I think that was too much (maybe every 4 or 6 levels) it did a lot of what synergy used to do and made the characters more customizable (if that's a word).
The "maxed out skill every other level" concept is gone (gladly in my eyes). However, they chose an Excellent alternative for letting characters be customizable. Any first rank in a class skill automatically gets a +3 class bonus (which makes the normal 4 ranks at first level), and every non-class skill just costs one "point" for one rank - so if you pick up a non-class skill you simply don't get the +3 bonus. No other penalty.
Thus, a 2nd level human Wizard with 14 Int could have:
2 ranks in Appraise, Know(arcana), Know(planes), Spellcraft, & Swim for a base +5 bonus to each (except swim) for +22 total from ranks and class bonus.
OR
1 rank in Acrobatic, Appraise, Craft(woodworking), Know(arcana), Know(dungeoneering), Know(history), Know(planes), Know(religion), Spellcraft, & Swim, for a base +4 to each (except Acrobatics and Swim) for +34 total from ranks and class bonus.
Or any combination of course.
And a 4th level Human Rogue with 10 Int could have 9 skills with 4 ranks for +63 total, or one rank in every single skill (one craft, one perform, one profession) for 102 total. After that point though there would be no further boost to the diversifier.
In case it wasn't clear in my prior post...
a) My vote is FOR "The Lordzack Synergy Compromise" posted by Mosaic. The 3.5 PHB and DMG already allow for this sort of thing, but for the PFRPG book, I'd come out and reiterate this fact more plainly.
b) My vote is AGAINST resurrecting the Synergy bonus system as written in 3.5. Skill consolidation makes up for it and the meager benefits do not outweigh the hassle.
BWC is not appreciably affected by either of these changes, particularly if You are simply referencing stat blocks in a 3.5 adventure. In fact, since PFRPG alters the skill-set, trying to put 3.5-style Synergy bonuses back in would actually increase conversion time. IMO that is already a good reason to leave them out.
I like "The Lordzack Synergy Compromise" too, and would not be averse to seeing something like it Beta.
Like other posters, when I first started using 3E I thought Synergy bonuses were cool. Further down the road, as I tried to keep up with high level NPCs and also "proofing" the characters built by my players, the Synergy bonuses really made me want to cry inside. So my vote belongs in the camp that thinks Skill Consolidation trumps Synergy bonuses.
That nicely sums up my feelings on the matter as well.
I think that in a lot of ways they make sense. I didn't like the mechanic much, though.
I think that if two skills could apply to the same situation and the character is skilled in both, then a +2 bonus should apply as a synergy bonus. This is left to the DM, and is not tracked on the character sheet. This could go as high as a +4 bonus if three skills that the character is trained in would apply.
There are may skill overlaps where being trained in both should apply. The other option would be to allow Aid Another to apply for related skill checks, even if one person is aiding himself. Roll both checks and apply a bonus to the primary skill.
Thus, when dealing with the king, you might roll Diplomacy, with a bonus for Knowledge:Royalty and a second bonus for Insight. This seems reasonable, if the same character is trained in all three skills.
-Scott
When I first got into 3e and 3.5, I really thought synergies were cool. "Free" bonuses. Now - egads - I'm so burned out in trying to keep track of them that I'm thrilled to see that they are gone.
Synergy was a pain. Great concept in theory, but too hard to keep track of.
Those who chooses to use a good Automated Character Sheet, do not have to worry about tracking synergies bonuses. It is done automatically by the Tool.
RiTz21
http://TheOnlySheet.com
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I like "The Lordzack Synergy Compromise" too, and would not be averse to seeing something like it Beta.
Ditto.
I love the *idea* of synergy bonuses, and missed them at first, but eventually realized I don't miss the extra math (especially on NPC creation) and always having to remember or look up what skills got or gave bonuses.
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The Lordzack Synergy Compromise
Skill synergies could work like Aid Another. You roll the first skill check (using the 'helping' skill) against DC 10 and if you succeed you get a +2 bonus on the second skill check with the main skill. Which skills synergize and under what conditions is up to the DM.
For example, succeed a DC10 skill check with Knowledge (nobility) and get a +2 to your Diplomacy check with the king.
I like it because it doesn't affect the calculation of skill ranks, rather it is situational. AND people who don't want to use it can just forget about it without worrying about their stats being wrong. Everybody gets what they want. How often can you say that?
Lordzack suggested this back in the Alpha 1 threads and I've been pushing it ever since.
Dammit!!!
Site ate my big post... <grumble, grumble...>
Anyhow, the premise was that although I liked the whole concept behind synergies, they became a bit unweildy. In previous editions such a thing was simply handle by Roleplaying - the player would argue that "this, this, and that" should all give him an edge while doing something, and the DM would mentally adjust the target number and ask him to roll.
No ruleset could possibly cover EVERY possible situation, so I think putting it back into the DM's hands (rule zero) is for the best. Perhaps a sidebar with Lordzack's method as just one suggestion how to do that. As for me, I'll just continue to pull modifiers out of my big, fat DM hiney (depending how good a case the player can make for said modifier).
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I could take them or leave them but... seriously. Are they really that hard to keep track of? You look up a few +2's once, and then you're done.
The constant ones; no.
But there are several which are situational ("+2 Spellcraft when deciphering scrolls", "+2 Survival when underground", etc).
Players would either write them on their sheet, and count them when they shouldn't apply, or leave them off and forget them when they should apply.
The proposed variant allows them to be used when appropriate, and be tailored to uncommon situations. For example, Knowledge (geography) may help you make a good impression with an explorer, sage or druid, but I would not propose that it should give a blanket bonus to Diplomacy.
Making it an Aid skill check allows low-skill classes to still benefit. High-skill classes don't always benefit, if their relevant ability is poor.
The DM can adjust the difficulty up or down, rather than there being a flat bonus for having 5 ranks.
Reducing the ability to perform the Aid should affect the chance of success (Cha damage reduces both Diplomacy and Bluff).