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Design Statement:
The monk is intended to be a highly mobile martial character who inflicts debilitating conditions on his opponents rather than dish out massive damage. Ultimately this means he's a support character, although given enough time he may be able to finish some foes on his own. He could make a good substitute for the rogue in an iconic party or act as a decent 5th character. A monk should be able to harass and effectively hinder casters and ranged attack monsters
Notes:
In the interests of back-compatibility, 3/4 BAB is maintained.
Given the 3.5 definition of alignments there is seriously no reason monks need be Lawful. Similarly, there are no ex-monks.
Any abilities without a section below should be considered identical to the text of 3.P.0.3. Similarly, unarmored speed, unarmed damage, and the flurry of blows progression are identical to 3.P.0.3.
Wholeness of Body needs to be worthwhile or it should just be axed. I almost gave the ability I did as a swift action, but decided it would be playable as a move. Anything worse than that is simply insulting.
The Stunning Fist feat doesn't exist anymore. Similarly, the Scorpion Style feat, while plausibly useful for non-monks, is no longer a bonus feat and exceeded by Crouching Tiger Paw.
Medusa's Wrath is amended to also work when the opponent is Nauseated.
This is a draft, and not rigorously playtested yet. IMHO it is unlikely to be too powerful, and should have useful things to do at all levels. Which means that even if its underpowered the player can still feel like he's contributing.
Monk
1 Bonus feat, flurry of blows, unarmed strike, AC bonus +4
2 Bonus feat, evasion
3 Maneuver Training, Ki Maneuver (Rising Sun)
4 Ki Pool (Magic), slow fall, AC bonus +5
5 High jump, purity of body, Ki Maneuver (Crouching Tiger Paw)
6 Bonus feat
7 Ki Maneuver (Coiled Cobra Thrust)
8 Wholeness of Body, AC bonus +6
9 Improved Evasion, Ki Maneuver (Broken Rabbit Defense)
10 Bonus feat, ki pool (Alignment)
11 Diamond Body, Ki Maneuver (Monkey Shock Attack)
12 Abundant Step, AC bonus +7
13 Diamond Soul, Ki Maneuver (Part the Moon's Veil)
14 Bonus feat
15 Ki Maneuver (Blossoming Lotus Touch)
16 Ki pool (special material), tongue of the sun and moon
17 Timeless Body, Ki Maneuver (The Halves Become Whole)
18 Bonus feat, Empty body
19 Ki Maneuver (Solar Eclypse)
20 Perfect Self
BAB: 3/4
Saves: all favored
HD: d8
Alignment: Any, although many monks are Lawful
Proficiencies: Any weapons previously designated as monk weapons and all simple melee weapons are considered monk weapons. A monk is proficient with all monk weapons. A monk gains no armor or shield proficiencies, and loses his flurry of blows, AC bonus, and fast movement abilities when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium load or greater.
AC Bonus (ex): When unarmored and unencumbered the monk gains a bonus to AC equal to 4+wis modifier. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels. This bonus applies even against touch attacks and when the monk is flat-footed, but not when he is immobilized, helpless, wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavier load.
Flurry of Blows (ex): As 3.P.0.3 except 'Special Monk Weapons' includes all simple weapons as well.
Ki Pool (su): At 1st level a monk gains a pool of ki, spiritual energy created by the body which he can focus to great effect. A monk's ki pool is equal to his class level plus his wisdom modifier. Ki may be spent as per the second paragraph of Ki pool in 3.P.0.3, and is regained as per the 3rd.
At 4th level a monk with any ki remaining in his ki pool may treat his fists as magic for overcoming damage reduction. At 10th level he may also treat them as one alignment he possesses, chosen when the monk first gains this ability (true neutral monks may choose any alignment). At 16th level he may also treat his fists as any one special material, which he may alter once per round as a free action. These traits apply for the purposes of bypassing DR and hardness.
Ki Maneuver (su): At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter the monk acquires a ki maneuver. Unless otherwise noted, each ki maneuver is activated as a swift action after dealing damage to a foe with an unarmed strike or monk's weapon and requires 1 ki to activate. The DC for all saves is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Wis Mod
Rising Sun (3rd level) - The target must make a Fortitude Save or be blinded for a number of rounds equal to the Monk's wisdom modifier.
Crouching Tiger Paw (5th level) - The target must make a Reflex Save or have its movement restricted to 5' in all modes. (Flying creatures with maneuverability less than perfect may stall and fall and will need to make an appropriate Fly check to stay airborn).
Coiled Cobra Thrust (7th level) - The target must make a Fortitude Save or be nauseated until the end of the Monk's next turn.
Broken Rabbit Defense (9th level) - The Monk spends a ki point and announces he is activating this option as a swift action at the end of his turn. Until the start of his next turn all attacks against him which miss cause the creature who attacked him to become fatigued. Fatigued creatures who become fatigued become exhausted as normal.
Monkey Shock Attack (11th level) - If the monk connects and deals damage with 2 or more attacks against one opponent he may activate Monkey Shock Attack as a swift action against that opponent at the cost of 1 ki. The opponent must make a fortitude save or be Stunned until the end of the Monk's next turn.
Part the Moon's Veil (13th level) - As a swift action, immediately after moving due to a teleportation effect the monk may spend a ki point to gain one attack, which must be taken immediately.
Blossoming Lotus Touch (15th level) - As a swift action the monk may spend 3 ki points after dealing damage with two or more attacks against the same opponent. That opponent must make a fortitude save or take an additional 10 damage/character level of the monk.
The Halves Become Whole (17th level) - The monk receives a second swift action each round, which may only be used to activate ki maneuvers. The monk may never activate the same ki maneuver more than once in a given round, but may activate two different ones.
Solar Eclypse (19th level) - As a swift action, immediately after moving as part of a teleportation effect, the monk may spend 3 ki points to gain a full attack action that must be used immediately.
Slow Fall (ex): At 4th level the Monk is treated as having a permanent non-magical effect identical in all other respects to feather fall. He may suppress this ability if he wishes.
Wholeness of Body (su): At 7th level or higher a monk can heal his own wounds as a move action. By spending 1 point of ki he heals Wis Mod x level hp.
Abundant Step (su): At 12th level or higher a monk can slip magically between spaces, teleporting 400'+40'/class level as a move action which costs 2 ki points. This is a teleportation effect.
Diamond Soul (ex): As 3.P.0.3, but SR = 11+character level.
Very impresive although I notice a lot of the early Ki abilities dont seem to cost anything. Is that intentional, Typo or am i going blind again?
Kevin Mack wrote: Very impresive although I notice a lot of the early Ki abilities dont seem to cost anything. Is that intentional, Typo or am i going blind again? Covered under the general paragraph about ki maneuvers. Unless otherwise specified, all are 1 ki to activate and require a swift action.
Edit: Whoops, the cost got left out of that paragraph by accident but everything else is there... la la la fixing.
Wow Squirrelloid,
that are some very cool Ideas!I really would like to see that in August in the Beta!
Nice work boy!
I've done some more thinking about Wholeness of Body, and the possible range of Wisdom modifiers is too large, leading to rather variable behavior from what's written. (At high levels the monk literally heals more hp than he has if he invests in wisdom, and that's a little silly for 1 ki point).
As a compromise, and trying to hit a target of 28hp healed at 7th level as my benchmark of level appropriate, i propose the following:
Wholeness of Body (su): The monk may spend any number of ki points as a move action. For each ki point spent he regains hit points equal to 2 x his monk level.
That should scale in an intuitive and not crazy way, be enough hp to care about (its 28hp w/ 2 ki spent at 7th level), and lets you get enough healing in one go to matter while reasonably ki costing it. At 20th level each ki point heals 40hp of damage, which seems reasonable when you may well take 2-3x that in one round.
Edit: I also seem to have forgotten the AC bonus +8 and +9 points - trust the text over the table!
Squirrelloid wrote: I've done some more thinking about Wholeness of Body, and the possible range of Wisdom modifiers is too large, leading to rather variable behavior from what's written. (At high levels the monk literally heals more hp than he has if he invests in wisdom, and that's a little silly for 1 ki point).
As a compromise, and trying to hit a target of 28hp healed at 7th level as my benchmark of level appropriate, i propose the following:
Wholeness of Body (su): The monk may spend any number of ki points as a move action. For each ki point spent he regains hit points equal to 2 x his monk level.
That should scale in an intuitive and not crazy way, be enough hp to care about (its 28hp w/ 2 ki spent at 7th level), and lets you get enough healing in one go to matter while reasonably ki costing it. At 20th level each ki point heals 40hp of damage, which seems reasonable when you may well take 2-3x that in one round.
Edit: I also seem to have forgotten the AC bonus +8 and +9 points - trust the text over the table!
Monk's have never been known to heal on the spot. The Wholeness of body shouldn't be a move equivalent action if it heals that much damage. A move equivalent would be a single die I would think. I came over here expecting to see a way overblown monk, but in general this monk isn't too bad. I like the ki abilities in general, but I dislike the AC change.
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: I've done some more thinking about Wholeness of Body, and the possible range of Wisdom modifiers is too large, leading to rather variable behavior from what's written. (At high levels the monk literally heals more hp than he has if he invests in wisdom, and that's a little silly for 1 ki point).
As a compromise, and trying to hit a target of 28hp healed at 7th level as my benchmark of level appropriate, i propose the following:
Wholeness of Body (su): The monk may spend any number of ki points as a move action. For each ki point spent he regains hit points equal to 2 x his monk level.
That should scale in an intuitive and not crazy way, be enough hp to care about (its 28hp w/ 2 ki spent at 7th level), and lets you get enough healing in one go to matter while reasonably ki costing it. At 20th level each ki point heals 40hp of damage, which seems reasonable when you may well take 2-3x that in one round.
Edit: I also seem to have forgotten the AC bonus +8 and +9 points - trust the text over the table!
Monk's have never been known to heal on the spot. The Wholeness of body shouldn't be a move equivalent action if it heals that much damage. A move equivalent would be a single die I would think. I came over here expecting to see a way overblown monk, but in general this monk isn't too bad. I like the ki abilities in general, but I dislike the AC change. The AC change makes the monk's AC bonus worth a Chain Shirt + enhancement bonus, so its actually worth giving up armor - imagine that.
Why should Wholeness of Body heal so little? If the monk isn't healing in the ballpark of the amount of damage he expects to take in the next turn should the monster attack him, taking an action of any sort to heal isn't worthwhile. At which point '1 die' of healing is a non-ability, and we can just scratch Wholeness of Body off the monk's abilities at all.
The whole point of a unified ki mechanic is that its a limited resource over the course of the day, and you're faced with many potential uses. You could blow all your Ki on healing, but then you aren't punching people in the face and making their vision spin. That's balance. When an option isn't worth using, it no longer competes for your ki because you *don't use it*. So healing better be a competitive option or we should just get rid of it.
Squirrelloid wrote: Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: I've done some more thinking about Wholeness of Body, and the possible range of Wisdom modifiers is too large, leading to rather variable behavior from what's written. (At high levels the monk literally heals more hp than he has if he invests in wisdom, and that's a little silly for 1 ki point).
As a compromise, and trying to hit a target of 28hp healed at 7th level as my benchmark of level appropriate, i propose the following:
Wholeness of Body (su): The monk may spend any number of ki points as a move action. For each ki point spent he regains hit points equal to 2 x his monk level.
That should scale in an intuitive and not crazy way, be enough hp to care about (its 28hp w/ 2 ki spent at 7th level), and lets you get enough healing in one go to matter while reasonably ki costing it. At 20th level each ki point heals 40hp of damage, which seems reasonable when you may well take 2-3x that in one round.
Edit: I also seem to have forgotten the AC bonus +8 and +9 points - trust the text over the table!
Monk's have never been known to heal on the spot. The Wholeness of body shouldn't be a move equivalent action if it heals that much damage. A move equivalent would be a single die I would think. I came over here expecting to see a way overblown monk, but in general this monk isn't too bad. I like the ki abilities in general, but I dislike the AC change. The AC change makes the monk's AC bonus worth a Chain Shirt + enhancement bonus, so its actually worth giving up armor - imagine that.
Why should Wholeness of Body heal so little? If the monk isn't healing in the ballpark of the amount of damage he expects to take in the next turn should the monster attack him, taking an action of any sort to heal isn't worthwhile. At which point '1 die' of healing is a non-ability, and we can just scratch Wholeness of Body off the monk's abilities at all.
The whole point of a unified ki mechanic is that its a limited resource over the... But as the monk can take bracers of armor, as I'm assuming you're not making the monk armor bonus "armor". I see no problem with the current AC system.
The ki Body of Wholeness ability you're proposing is just too powerful, it's not about a monk soloing, it seems you're very interested in making Pathfinder more like 4e. Taking away the need for a cleric, who now has better healing to begin with. Too much change is also bad mechanically to a challenging game.
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote: But as the monk can take bracers of armor, as I'm assuming you're not making the monk armor bonus "armor". I see no problem with the current AC system.
The ki Body of Wholeness ability you're proposing is just too powerful, it's not about a monk soloing, it seems you're very interested in making Pathfinder more like 4e. Taking away the need for a cleric, who now has better healing to begin with. Too much change is also bad mechanically to a challenging game.
Actually, making the monk's AC bonus an armor bonus (which just happens to also work against touch attacks) is a good solution. I toyed with it but it didn't make the draft, partially because I wasn't especially concerned about Monks stacking Bracers of AC with their monk armor bonus. But i haven't tried putting together a level 20 monk yet either, so its a possible solution to a problem that may or may not exist.
As to Wholeness of Body - clerics don't heal in combat. Its really that simple. Clerics kick Team Monster's ass, and then they pull out some wands to patch people up. I really don't see Wholeness of Body competing with the Cleric's role.
The fact that someone else can heal people is also no reason for an option you have to suck. If you get something as a class ability then it should be level appropriate when you get it (and ideally continue to be level appropriate indefinitely). There's no excuse for Wholeness of Body to be worse than Cure Light Wounds as a level 7 ability, there really isn't. That's just insulting.
Now, do I especially care if Monks can heal themselves? Not really. But monks have had that ability all 3rd edition - there's some inertia there. If they're going to have it, it should be useful. End of story. Handing out abilities you'll never want to use is pointless and dishonest of a game designer.
I still don't like the fact that it's still a unified Monk and the only differances are the feats chosen and alignment. I'd still like some more versitality that reflects differing martial arts styles.
Something that worked along the ideas of the sorcerer would be more interesting. Powers that kicked in low to mid levels and allowed the monk to branch out in differant ways.
Herald wrote: I still don't like the fact that it's still a unified Monk and the only differances are the feats chosen and alignment. I'd still like some more versitality that reflects differing martial arts styles.
Something that worked along the ideas of the sorcerer would be more interesting. Powers that kicked in low to mid levels and allowed the monk to branch out in differant ways.
The sorceror was relatively easy because the bloodline powers are fairly minor compared to spellcasting. You're talking about the monk's whole schtick being swappable, which is a nightmare for balance (see: spellcasting, which is a nightmare for balance). Ultimately a unified set of powers is the place to start - although I completely agree that being able to choose from multiple power options at each point would be nice.
That said, try googling Dungeonomicon - it has a rebalanced Monk that you may really like (or maybe not), but most people aren't ready for those authors' assumptions about game power and therefore balance.
Nunchaku, Kama, and Siangham are really not necessary considering they have identical stats to pre-existing simple weapons.
Kama is Japanese for Sickle, one of my big beefs with how WOTC handled things, toss it, Monks can use a sickle as a monk weapon anyways.
Nunchaku is roughly a light flail only with two handles, same damage, roughly the same weight...Monks can use a Light Flail as a simple weapon and a monk weapon now...no need for this. Nunchaku would just be a stylistically built light flail.
Siangham is basically a dagger, monks can use daggers as a monk weapon...why do we have a Siangham? (What /is/ a Siangham?)
I purposefully like the idea of Shuriken either being available to all classes, or eliminated in favor for throwing daggers and darts. Shuriken are really just differently made short range throwing knives.
Maybe so, but as written the PF Monk is stuck as a monolic PC in D&D when it really should be a lot more versitle. I really don't want to retool from Dungenomicon, I'd like to see something that versital that fit the Pathfinder system.
Jesse Vindiola wrote: Nunchaku, Kama, and Siangham are really not necessary considering they have identical stats to pre-existing simple weapons.
Kama is Japanese for Sickle, one of my big beefs with how WOTC handled things, toss it, Monks can use a sickle as a monk weapon anyways.
Nunchaku is roughly a light flail only with two handles, same damage, roughly the same weight...Monks can use a Light Flail as a simple weapon and a monk weapon now...no need for this. Nunchaku would just be a stylistically built light flail.
Siangham is basically a dagger, monks can use daggers as a monk weapon...why do we have a Siangham? (What /is/ a Siangham?)
I purposefully like the idea of Shuriken either being available to all classes, or eliminated in favor for throwing daggers and darts. Shuriken are really just differently made short range throwing knives.
I really can't disagree. Its just not a battle I care to fight or even feel is notably relevant. I gave monks all simple weapons as monk weapons, so if you want to ignore the existence of the 'exotic' names as separate entities, more power to you.
So yes, I agree, I'm more concerned with class mechanics and back compatibility than fighting that battle.
Herald wrote: Maybe so, but as written the PF Monk is stuck as a monolic PC in D&D when it really should be a lot more versitle. I really don't want to retool from Dungenomicon, I'd like to see something that versital that fit the Pathfinder system. Tell you what, you get Jason to personally guarantee that I get to write the monk class, and I'll spend the time to think of, write, and balance multiple Ki Maneuver tracks. This is a demonstration piece - i'm not about to put another 20 hours into it to make something ready for market unless I know its going to market when I'm done with it.
Yeah, I don't see that happening either. Feel free to steal my concept and make your own paths.
Squirrelloid wrote: Herald wrote: Maybe so, but as written the PF Monk is stuck as a monolic PC in D&D when it really should be a lot more versitle. I really don't want to retool from Dungenomicon, I'd like to see something that versital that fit the Pathfinder system. Tell you what, you get Jason to personally guarantee that I get to write the monk class, and I'll spend the time to think of, write, and balance multiple Ki Maneuver tracks. This is a demonstration piece - i'm not about to put another 20 hours into it to make something ready for market unless I know its going to market when I'm done with it.
Yeah, I don't see that happening either. Feel free to steal my concept and make your own paths. Dude, If I steped on your toes, I'm sorry. Maybe I shouldn't have posted here because I was trying to find a [Think tank] thread and I assumed that this was going to be just that.
I have looked over your work, it looks good.
Yes it's not really what I'm looking for but I shouldn't have rained on your parade. I will wait till a [think tank] Monk tread opens up (if it ever does) and express my wishes there.
The monk should be capable of healing himself, and it should be a viable amount of healing. I love that this uses Ki Points, to balance it against other abilities the monk may want to do.
The reason the monk needs to self-heal is this: The monk is often on the periphery of the battlefield, operating independently of the party cleric. When it drops in the pot, the monk needs to be able to get back in action and can't rely on the cleric for assistance.
Also, the monk gets SR eventually, and this can be problematic when looking for a bit of a HP boost at high levels. Being able to provide it to himself without dropping his SR is important. It also doesn't tie up other party resources (cleric spells), and is in keeping with the monk's strategy.
-Scott
Scotto wrote: The monk should be capable of healing himself, and it should be a viable amount of healing. I love that this uses Ki Points, to balance it against other abilities the monk may want to do.
The reason the monk needs to self-heal is this: The monk is often on the periphery of the battlefield, operating independently of the party cleric. When it drops in the pot, the monk needs to be able to get back in action and can't rely on the cleric for assistance.
Also, the monk gets SR eventually, and this can be problematic when looking for a bit of a HP boost at high levels. Being able to provide it to himself without dropping his SR is important. It also doesn't tie up other party resources (cleric spells), and is in keeping with the monk's strategy.
-Scott
So the question for you is: do you think the amount of healing the monk can provide himself in this write-up is reasonable? (Look down around post #5 for my revised opinion on what it should be). Is that a balanced amount of healing?
I mean, I agree with you in principle, the question is what exactly that means in practice.
Herald wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: Herald wrote: Maybe so, but as written the PF Monk is stuck as a monolic PC in D&D when it really should be a lot more versitle. I really don't want to retool from Dungenomicon, I'd like to see something that versital that fit the Pathfinder system. Tell you what, you get Jason to personally guarantee that I get to write the monk class, and I'll spend the time to think of, write, and balance multiple Ki Maneuver tracks. This is a demonstration piece - i'm not about to put another 20 hours into it to make something ready for market unless I know its going to market when I'm done with it.
Yeah, I don't see that happening either. Feel free to steal my concept and make your own paths. Dude, If I steped on your toes, I'm sorry. Maybe I shouldn't have posted here because I was trying to find a [Think tank] thread and I assumed that this was going to be just that.
I have looked over your work, it looks good.
Yes it's not really what I'm looking for but I shouldn't have rained on your parade. I will wait till a [think tank] Monk tread opens up (if it ever does) and express my wishes there. Its not so much you stepped on my toes, i think we had different hopes for this thread. I'm trying to demonstrate what the monk could be, primarily for Jason's benefit. Ultimately he'll make decisions about the exact abilities and how many options there are.
That said, I don't mind some think tanking going on, but rather than 'there should be alternate paths', propose one (or more). Ie, my Ki Maneuver Path could be the Way of the Stalking Mongoose. You could propose as an option that a character/player could instead choose the Stare of the Hostile Moose path, and write 10 abilities for it to be gained at the stated levels. I'd be happy to provide feedback on such work. But you came off as 'write this for me', and while I'd be happy to if I thought there was any point to doing so, I'm not sure there is.
Squirrelloid wrote:
So the question for you is: do you think the amount of healing the monk can provide himself in this write-up is reasonable? (Look down around post #5 for my revised opinion on what it should be). Is that a balanced amount of healing?
I mean, I agree with you in principle, the question is what exactly that means in practice.
I think that 2 Ki Points = 2x Monk Level is appropriate. It's a drain on Ki Points, so won't be used unless needed. It's also scalable, so the monk can do it once and get back the HP he needs to resume the combat. I think it should be a Standard Action, as no one really gets to heal as a Move Action in the game.
-Scott
Squirrelloid wrote: Herald wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: Herald wrote: Maybe so, but as written the PF Monk is stuck as a monolic PC in D&D when it really should be a lot more versitle. I really don't want to retool from Dungenomicon, I'd like to see something that versital that fit the Pathfinder system. Tell you what, you get Jason to personally guarantee that I get to write the monk class, and I'll spend the time to think of, write, and balance multiple Ki Maneuver tracks. This is a demonstration piece - i'm not about to put another 20 hours into it to make something ready for market unless I know its going to market when I'm done with it.
Yeah, I don't see that happening either. Feel free to steal my concept and make your own paths. Dude, If I steped on your toes, I'm sorry. Maybe I shouldn't have posted here because I was trying to find a [Think tank] thread and I assumed that this was going to be just that.
I have looked over your work, it looks good.
Yes it's not really what I'm looking for but I shouldn't have rained on your parade. I will wait till a [think tank] Monk tread opens up (if it ever does) and express my wishes there. Its not so much you stepped on my toes, i think we had different hopes for this thread. I'm trying to demonstrate what the monk could be, primarily for Jason's benefit. Ultimately he'll make decisions about the exact abilities and how many options there are.
That said, I don't mind some think tanking going on, but rather than 'there should be alternate paths', propose one (or more). Ie, my Ki Maneuver Path could be the Way of the Stalking Mongoose. You could propose as an option that a character/player could instead choose the Stare of the Hostile Moose path, and write 10 abilities for it to be gained at the stated levels. I'd be happy to provide feedback on such work. But you came off as 'write this for me', and while I'd be happy to if I thought there was any point to doing so, I'm not sure there is. I'll try and find some time to do so. I certainly didn't mean to come off as "do this for me" kinda guy. My bad.
Like I said before, your work does look good. after some of the way things have gotten out of hand around here with viewpoints I should have been more careful with my presentation. When I went back and read my posts on this thread I wasn't happy with my words.
Herald wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: Herald wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: Herald wrote: Maybe so, but as written the PF Monk is stuck as a monolic PC in D&D when it really should be a lot more versitle. I really don't want to retool from Dungenomicon, I'd like to see something that versital that fit the Pathfinder system. Tell you what, you get Jason to personally guarantee that I get to write the monk class, and I'll spend the time to think of, write, and balance multiple Ki Maneuver tracks. This is a demonstration piece - i'm not about to put another 20 hours into it to make something ready for market unless I know its going to market when I'm done with it.
Yeah, I don't see that happening either. Feel free to steal my concept and make your own paths. Dude, If I steped on your toes, I'm sorry. Maybe I shouldn't have posted here because I was trying to find a [Think tank] thread and I assumed that this was going to be just that.
I have looked over your work, it looks good.
Yes it's not really what I'm looking for but I shouldn't have rained on your parade. I will wait till a [think tank] Monk tread opens up (if it ever does) and express my wishes there. Its not so much you stepped on my toes, i think we had different hopes for this thread. I'm trying to demonstrate what the monk could be, primarily for Jason's benefit. Ultimately he'll make decisions about the exact abilities and how many options there are.
That said, I don't mind some think tanking going on, but rather than 'there should be alternate paths', propose one (or more). Ie, my Ki Maneuver Path could be the Way of the Stalking Mongoose. You could propose as an option that a character/player could instead choose the Stare of the Hostile Moose path, and write 10 abilities for it to be gained at the stated levels. I'd be happy to provide feedback on such work. But you came off as 'write this for me', and while I'd be happy to if I thought there was any point to doing so, I'm not sure there is. ... Hey Herald, Squirrelloid, and others I created a [THINK TANK] MONK here.
OK,
I like everything Squirrelloid has done here except he's missed two critical issues. Monks still can't hit worth a damn at high levels and they are still dependent upon multiple high ability scores.
JoS
Jack of Shadows wrote: OK,
I like everything Squirrelloid has done here except he's missed two critical issues. Monks still can't hit worth a damn at high levels and they are still dependent upon multiple high ability scores.
JoS
I'm a firm believer in an item of magic unarmed strike that's reasonably costed - which helps. That doesn't belong in a class write-up.
I'm also a firm believer in some feats to help the monk out (like Wis to hit), which also doesn't belong here. I do help the monk hit a little bit though - Broken Rabbit Defense can, over two rounds, apply -6 to your opponent's dex and str, meaning some AC reduction. Its not much, but its a start. And it probably takes too long. Of course, if you pull off, say, a stun... go to town.
There are features beyond the class itself which need to be considered. And there's also the serious limitation that Jason will not change the Monk's BAB to good, meaning we're stuck at 3/4 for Pathfinder.
As to MAD, a Wis to hit feat would allow Monks to not worry about strength so much (especially as damage isn't really what they do in this version), which reduces them to 3 stats - equivalent to other melee characters. (Wis/Dex/Con instead of Str/Dex/Con).
So yes, there are solutions to those problems, but I don't think they are or should be class-based solutions. (Unless you think Wis to hit should be a class feature so Clerics can't crib it).
Squirrelloid wrote: Jack of Shadows wrote: OK,
I like everything Squirrelloid has done here except he's missed two critical issues. Monks still can't hit worth a damn at high levels and they are still dependent upon multiple high ability scores.
JoS
I'm a firm believer in an item of magic unarmed strike that's reasonably costed - which helps. That doesn't belong in a class write-up.
I'm also a firm believer in some feats to help the monk out (like Wis to hit), which also doesn't belong here. I do help the monk hit a little bit though - Broken Rabbit Defense can, over two rounds, apply -6 to your opponent's dex and str, meaning some AC reduction. Its not much, but its a start. And it probably takes too long. Of course, if you pull off, say, a stun... go to town.
There are features beyond the class itself which need to be considered. And there's also the serious limitation that Jason will not change the Monk's BAB to good, meaning we're stuck at 3/4 for Pathfinder.
As to MAD, a Wis to hit feat would allow Monks to not worry about strength so much (especially as damage isn't really what they do in this version), which reduces them to 3 stats - equivalent to other melee characters. (Wis/Dex/Con instead of Str/Dex/Con).
So yes, there are solutions to those problems, but I don't think they are or should be class-based solutions. (Unless you think Wis to hit should be a class feature so Clerics can't crib it). Alternatively, you can ignore Str, Focus on wis and dex, and take weapon finesse. You won't be doing much damage, but you can pump up your AC and to hit at the same time.
As for your rebuilt monk class, I like the ideas in it, but the modifications to the monk's bonus AC and removal of slow fall goes against the whole compatible issue, as there are several PrCs that build off it. And the DC for the Ki abilities might be low, given that it is the same as the one for stunning fist, which in may experience, is always too low. At level 20, the DC will be at 25-30, when most monsters have at least a +17 on their weakest save. I would make it 5+Levels in Monk+Wis mod. At level 3 which is the first level you get a ki ability, it have a DC of 5+3+Wis mod which assuming a +4 or +5 sets it at 12 or 13, which is a little low, but it scales quickly, becoming a DC of 15 or 16 at level 5, which is good, and by level 20, it should be in the low 30s, which is where it should be.
BM wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: Jack of Shadows wrote: OK,
I like everything Squirrelloid has done here except he's missed two critical issues. Monks still can't hit worth a damn at high levels and they are still dependent upon multiple high ability scores.
JoS
I'm a firm believer in an item of magic unarmed strike that's reasonably costed - which helps. That doesn't belong in a class write-up.
I'm also a firm believer in some feats to help the monk out (like Wis to hit), which also doesn't belong here. I do help the monk hit a little bit though - Broken Rabbit Defense can, over two rounds, apply -6 to your opponent's dex and str, meaning some AC reduction. Its not much, but its a start. And it probably takes too long. Of course, if you pull off, say, a stun... go to town.
There are features beyond the class itself which need to be considered. And there's also the serious limitation that Jason will not change the Monk's BAB to good, meaning we're stuck at 3/4 for Pathfinder.
As to MAD, a Wis to hit feat would allow Monks to not worry about strength so much (especially as damage isn't really what they do in this version), which reduces them to 3 stats - equivalent to other melee characters. (Wis/Dex/Con instead of Str/Dex/Con).
So yes, there are solutions to those problems, but I don't think they are or should be class-based solutions. (Unless you think Wis to hit should be a class feature so Clerics can't crib it). Alternatively, you can ignore Str, Focus on wis and dex, and take weapon finesse. You won't be doing much damage, but you can pump up your AC and to hit at the same time.
As for your rebuilt monk class, I like the ideas in it, but the modifications to the monk's bonus AC and removal of slow fall goes against the whole compatible issue, as there are several PrCs that build off it. And the DC for the Ki abilities might be low, given that it is the same as the one for stunning fist, which in may experience, is always too low. At level 20, the DC will be at... It has slow fall, i just give it to the class all at once as a feather fall effect. Because the fact that it takes 20 levels to replicate a level 1 spell is really silly. Its not like monks falling arbitrary distances and taking no damage has any game balance implications at all.
The DC for his strike abilities really depends on how much attention he spends on wisdom. Assuming he starts with a 16 wisdom and takes a wis pumping race he can reasonably expect to get a 34 wisdom by level 20 if he spends all his level pumps on it, which is a 31 save DC. Whereas with your proposal it would be a 37. The problem with stunning fist currently is the monk can't afford to dedicate that much effort to wisdom because he needs str for to hit/damage. This build cares less about damage, and really wants wis to-hit, then he can be a wisdom monkey and not worry so much.
Squirrelloid wrote: BM wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: Jack of Shadows wrote: OK,
I like everything Squirrelloid has done here except he's missed two critical issues. Monks still can't hit worth a damn at high levels and they are still dependent upon multiple high ability scores.
JoS
I'm a firm believer in an item of magic unarmed strike that's reasonably costed - which helps. That doesn't belong in a class write-up.
I'm also a firm believer in some feats to help the monk out (like Wis to hit), which also doesn't belong here. I do help the monk hit a little bit though - Broken Rabbit Defense can, over two rounds, apply -6 to your opponent's dex and str, meaning some AC reduction. Its not much, but its a start. And it probably takes too long. Of course, if you pull off, say, a stun... go to town.
There are features beyond the class itself which need to be considered. And there's also the serious limitation that Jason will not change the Monk's BAB to good, meaning we're stuck at 3/4 for Pathfinder.
As to MAD, a Wis to hit feat would allow Monks to not worry about strength so much (especially as damage isn't really what they do in this version), which reduces them to 3 stats - equivalent to other melee characters. (Wis/Dex/Con instead of Str/Dex/Con).
So yes, there are solutions to those problems, but I don't think they are or should be class-based solutions. (Unless you think Wis to hit should be a class feature so Clerics can't crib it). Alternatively, you can ignore Str, Focus on wis and dex, and take weapon finesse. You won't be doing much damage, but you can pump up your AC and to hit at the same time.
As for your rebuilt monk class, I like the ideas in it, but the modifications to the monk's bonus AC and removal of slow fall goes against the whole compatible issue, as there are several PrCs that build off it. And the DC for the Ki abilities might be low, given that it is the same as the one for stunning fist, which in may experience, is always too low. At level 20, the DC... I don't really have a problem with allowing Feather fall early on for monks, as a Ring of Feather Falling is only 2200gp. Maybe make it a 3rd or 4th level ability?
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
I don't really have a problem with allowing Feather fall early on for monks, as a Ring of Feather Falling is only 2200gp. Maybe make it a 3rd or 4th level ability?
In my first post its a 4th level ability =)
Why do monks even have monk weapons? I mean, honestly. Would you rather deal 2d10 damage and use stunning fist to boot, or just deal 1d6 damage? Why would any monk above 1st level EVER use a weapon, the way the rules are written?
So, make the kama a sickle, which it is. Make monks proficient with simple weapons. Insert the following text: "A monk can use her Flurry of Blows ability with any weapon with which she is proficient. When wielding a weapon with which she is proficient, a monk deals her unarmed strike damage (plus the weapon's enhancement bonuses, if any), or the weapon's normal damage, whichever is greater."
That way, a kama-wielding monk makes sense. A monk could also blow a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword), and use that, if he or she really wanted to.
Kirth Gersen wrote: Why do monks even have monk weapons? I mean, honestly. Would you rather deal 2d10 damage and use stunning fist to boot, or just deal 1d6 damage? Why would any monk above 1st level EVER use a weapon, the way the rules are written?
So, make the kama a sickle, which it is. Make monks proficient with simple weapons. Insert the following text: "A monk can use her Flurry of Blows ability with any weapon with which she is proficient. When wielding a weapon with which she is proficient, a monk deals her unarmed strike damage (plus the weapon's enhancement bonuses, if any), or the weapon's normal damage, whichever is greater."
That way, a kama-wielding monk makes sense. A monk could also blow a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword), and use that, if he or she really wanted to.
I support this message.
WOTC employees should be hung for making up a new weapon that is essentially the same weapon as a pre-existing weapon, only with the Japanese name for said weapon.
Kama=Sickle
We don't need 'Shovel' on the equipment list, followed by 'Sukoppu' with identical stats, but only Monks can dig with it.
Big Fish wrote: We don't need 'Shovel' on the equipment list, followed by 'Sukoppu' with identical stats, but only Monks can dig with it. And if they dig with their bare hands, they automatically move 50x MORE dirt than if they use the special 'Sukoppu' that only they can use. That's beyond stupid, and into the realm of brain-damaged.
Kirth Gersen wrote: And if they dig with their bare hands, they automatically move 50x MORE dirt than if they use the special 'Sukoppu' that only they can use. That's beyond stupid, and into the realm of brain-damaged. Lol...as ludicrous as this example is, it's so so so apt.
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