[THINK TANK] Paladins

[Zorg]

Give the paladin a list of Special Mounts akin to the Druid's list. This way, he could easily swap his warhorse for an hypogrif, Griffin, Winter Wolf (for Evil Paladins), Dragon, etc, without DM intervention.

- Zorg

[Matthew Bromund]

The Paladin as a LG-only class was designed to be balanced by the Assassin as an Evil-only class in original AD&D. As successive iterations of the game have moved away from that balance, it has become increasingly difficult to justify the alignment restriction.

It is extremely easy to justify calling the LG Holy Warrior a Paladin, however, and the variant alignment-specific Holy Warriors have worked out pretty well in all the games I have run, both as PCs and NPCs. Pathfinder broadening the Holy Warrior (or Champion or Cavalier even, whatever you want to call it) to encompass the other alignments would return balance to the classes. This makes even more sense when one factors in the migration of Druids (once True Neutral only), Rangers (once Good only), and Thieves/Rogues (once Neutral or Evil only) across the alignment spectrum.

So on the question of a broadened class where the LG version is called 'Paladin', count me in. It plays out well and it has enough of a difference from the Cleric (barring a multiclass Fighter/Cleric) to be unique and fun.

On the subject of the mount for a Paladin, I love the idea of a Paladin being able to manifest his holy weapon as a class ability. Paladins have historically had super-intelligent or powerful mounts and it is a great piece of flavor that, like the wizard's familiar, is best when treated as flavor rather than as a key part of the character's arsenal.

What if the holy weapon bond were made into the class ability and the whole issue of a mount removed to the character's later development/feat selection? After all, the 'Pokemon-style' mount leads to the storage issues discussed here and the older conception of a mount leads to a lot of time spent dealing with the mount's basic needs in a party where no one else necessarily has to have such challenges.

Some Paladins will want their mount and they should have that option. Some wizards want the same (Gandalf anyone? Was he a Pal 5/Wiz 25 to accomodate his mount? Or was he just a Wizard who cultivated the relationship with his mount?).

A Holy Weapon, created and sustained by faith seems to me to be a much more iconic, and universal, trope of the Paladin ideal.

What if Pathfinder has stumbled on the right solution, the Alpha just hasn't gone far enough yet?

[DracoDruid]

I think I agree to you. Actually I would give the PAL just BOTH (but not this pokemount stuff - Give them a real mount!).
AND I would grant the mount the ability to "command/lead" animals from the beginning,
like the PAL can (should) command/lead other human(oid)s.

Meaning the following:

Imagine your party rides to a ruin with a known cavern system beneath.
You arrive and know that you might be down there for maybe 2 days or even more!
What do you do about your horses?! Bind them and let them starve? let them free, hoping to find them where you left em?
No! Thank God the PAL has his loyal (and intelligent) mount. Just leave them with the holy mount. If you return to the surface, the PAL just calls his mount mentally to return to the place they separated, and you can be sure it brings the other horses too.

[Matthew Bromund]

DracoDruid wrote:

I think I agree to you. Actually I would give the PAL just BOTH (but not this pokemount stuff - Give them a real mount!).

AND I would grant the mount the ability to "command/lead" animals from the beginning,
like the PAL can (should) command/lead other human(oid)s.

Meaning the following:

Imagine your party rides to a ruin with a known cavern system beneath.
You arrive and know that you might be down there for maybe 2 days or even more!
What do you do about your horses?! Bind them and let them starve? let them free, hoping to find them where you left em?
No! Thank God the PAL has his loyal (and intelligent) mount. Just leave them with the holy mount. If you return to the surface, the PAL just calls his mount mentally to return to the place they separated, and you can be sure it brings the other horses too.

That, I think, makes a lot more in-game sense. Thumbs up for me. :)

[WalkerInShadows]

Quote:

The Champion. A warrior that uses divine power to fight on behalf of his deity or for a particular cause.

There would be alternate class features at certain levels based on alignment.

Something like this?

[David Fryer]

Zorg wrote:

Give the paladin a list of Special Mounts akin to the Druid's list. This way, he could easily swap his warhorse for an hypogrif, Griffin, Winter Wolf (for Evil Paladins), Dragon, etc, without DM intervention.

- Zorg

Yes please. One of my favorite characters of all time was a Norse flavored palidin who had a polar bear as his special mount.

[Xyll]

I think mounts should be the same as the animal companions of rangers and druids. They should be permanent members of the party not a summonable creature. I never liked that concept. In fact I really dislike summoning spells in general but thats a different story altogether.

[Blake Knutson]

Thought the 3.0 Lay on Hands being tied to Cha score was one of the excellent rule changes made in 3rd edition. Original versions were 2/level. We are now talking 1/level plus special stuff. Keep the special stuff but also return lay on hands to Cha bonus/level.
Glad to see Divine Grace unchanged at Cha bonus/save.
Paladins/Sorcerers/Bards and Cha based skills were a great addition to the game by 3rd edition, that made Charisma a real ability and not just the after-thought ability. Do not undo that.

[WalkerInShadows]

Okay guys, check this out. It's a new take on the paladin called the champion (working title; I don't really like the name). Champions are holy warriors of their gods - they can be of any alignment (though it's very easy to restrict it to good or even LG if you want). I took some bits from my Divine Champion, some from Paizo's paladin, added some extra stuff, and mixed it all together to come up with something new.

The Champion has auras, similar to Pathfinder; smite the unbelievers (those of opposing alignment or faith); added versatility for their lay on hands (it's a separate ability, but similar mechanic) - they can cure or inflict disease, poison, ability damage, or negative levels; bonded weapons/mounts; and slightly boosted spell progression. They also have a high Will save - rangers get two good saves, and clerics have a high Will save, so why shouldn't champions too? Besides, giving them a high Will save makes up for their loss of Wis as a primary stat.

The "minions" table mentioned in there is a unified animal companion/mount/familiar table; I haven't done the improved mounts thing yet, but it'll be similar to the druid's improved animal companions.

[tallforadwarf]

I've had a couple of days off, great to see this thread is still going!

Zorg wrote:

Give the paladin a list of Special Mounts akin to the Druid's list. This way, he could easily swap his warhorse for an hypogrif, Griffin, Winter Wolf (for Evil Paladins), Dragon, etc, without DM intervention.

As a GM, I've always allowed 'exotic mounts' for Paladins - the extra attention that they require compensates for the in game power boosts. One of our Paladins has a small dragon as a mount - he's a real hassle to feed! I'm aware that not all PCs/DMs/Groups would be comfortable with this though, so a set of rules setting some of these mounts 'in stone' would be a very welcome addition.

I can see it attracting new interest in the class also.

Peace,

tfad

[quest-master]

What if instead of detect evil at paladin level first, you got the divine bond with the weapon?

The weapon could glow in the presence of evil and let you know which creatures within its radius are evil OR whether or not the creature you just struck is evil.

This would give the paladin a useful feature in combat (+1 magic weapon) that doesn't get used up after a single shot.

Also, the spirit of the weapon should be able to switch to a different weapon within 30 feet as a move action. It being a SPIRIT and all.

A sundered body shouldn't send it back to another dimension for 30 DAYS and sometimes you just need to use a different weapon.

Even if Smite Evil remains as is, this might make paladin players feel more satisfied, both flavor and gameplay mechanics wise, from starting level and on.