Not only do I need Concentration to use my Psionic Focus (without making Spellcraft checks)
... I also need to make concentration checks whenever using a skill while being distracted....you know trying to pick a lock while some fool halfling taunts me into wanting to wring his neck..
... but. Must. Stay. On. Task. (damn Halfling.)
I should make a spellcraft check for that?
So please bring Concentration back as a WIS based (willpower) skill which can be rolled up with the Autohypnosis skill from the 3.5 Psionics handbook (Even without making Psionics a part of the core book.)
lets see psionic focus could that be handled by psicraft. It would seem to be an idea seeing as how only psionic classed use psionic focus just how only spell using classes currently use spellcraft to concentrate on spell casting and not psionic abilities they don't use. As for concentrating on specific skills I think that would be covered by a higher DC for the same reason.
The way I see it when the task becomes harder the DC goes up. You shouldn't have to stack other skill rolls in on it.
lets see psionic focus could that be handled by psicraft. It would seem to be an idea seeing as how only psionic classed use psionic focus just how only spell using classes currently use spellcraft to concentrate on spell casting and not psionic abilities they don't use. As for concentrating on specific skills I think that would be covered by a higher DC for the same reason.
The way I see it when the task becomes harder the DC goes up. You shouldn't have to stack other skill rolls in on it.
What I don't get is why an increased knowledge (INT based skill) of how the forces of Magic can be used increases the reliability of your spells when being pelted with slingstones on a rocking deck in the middle of a storm.
No, what you need to do is Concentrate....block it all out so that you can focus on what you are doing.
|
lets see psionic focus could that be handled by psicraft. It would seem to be an idea seeing as how only psionic classed use psionic focus just how only spell using classes currently use spellcraft to concentrate on spell casting and not psionic abilities they don't use. As for concentrating on specific skills I think that would be covered by a higher DC for the same reason.
The way I see it when the task becomes harder the DC goes up. You shouldn't have to stack other skill rolls in on it.
I think I agree with that point.
I think I agree with that point.lets see psionic focus could that be handled by psicraft. It would seem to be an idea seeing as how only psionic classed use psionic focus just how only spell using classes currently use spellcraft to concentrate on spell casting and not psionic abilities they don't use. As for concentrating on specific skills I think that would be covered by a higher DC for the same reason.
The way I see it when the task becomes harder the DC goes up. You shouldn't have to stack other skill rolls in on it.
What about situations where there is not another skill roll?
I'm hanging from a rope from one arm holding my best bud 's hand as he hangs below me.... a bee lands on my nose (and I'm ALLERGIC to BEE VENOM!)
what DC should I roll and which skill (Use Rope maybe.... nope it's gone too.)
Director of Games
|
Unfortunately, I am not really dealing with Psionics right at the moment. If you are running with them in your campaign, feel free to keep Concentration, or roll it into Psicraft.
I am trying to do what is best for the core rules and psionics are just not part of that plan right at the moment.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Unfortunately, I am not really dealing with Psionics right at the moment. If you are running with them in your campaign, feel free to keep Concentration, or roll it into Psicraft.
I am trying to do what is best for the core rules and psionics are just not part of that plan right at the moment.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That's not really the point,
Concentration is not a Spellcasting skill.
it's the ability to stay on track and block out distractions.
Spellcraft is a Knowledge type skill.
it allows you to Identify active effects and spells being cast.
the only reason there is as much rule text in the Concentration skill dealing with magic is because there is a need to define what "magic" can do more so then any other ability that requires attention.
Even without Psionics the skill is used for other situations.
|
You can easily argue that concentration is an inherent aspect of every skill. Your skill bonus not only represents your facility but your focus. Just like you can assume someone with a high acrobatics score wont fall on their butt when you scream "pop goes the weasel!" you can assume that someone with a high knowledge: history score knows how to skim a chapter when the library is burning down around them.
Just assume that dealing with duress is part and parcel of the skill system in an adventure game. I think my bard player would lob some dice at me if I made her make concentration checks in tandem with her performance rolls because the environment wasn't ideal for entertainment.
You can easily argue that concentration is an inherent aspect of every skill.
No I'm saying that Concentration is an inherent aspect of EVERYTHING, and as such should not be rolled into a skill that is speciallized for magic weilders.
Why don't you stop being angry, houserule the Concentration skill back into your game, and be done with it?
While I agree there is definately a need for a separate Concentration skill, I won't go out of my way making those who disagree with me feel less than equal to me due to their opinion.
I think all your players would throw dice at you if they discovered they couldn't disrupt an NPC's bardic performance by attacking him/her.
I also think Concentration needs to A) not be based on INT and B) not be part of Spellcraft. It breaks suspension of disbelief for me (do you really mean to tell me a Paladin is bad at retaining composure in inclement conditions?) and it also penalizes Bards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Druids (who don't use INT to cast spells) against Wizards (who do).
Concentration could be substituted by a will save (Making the roll WIS based) when not actually modifying a skill check...
save DCs would match to the check DCs for Concentration.
And if that mechanic is used for non-skill checks then why not use them in place of the skill checks as well? Trying to cast a spell or sing a Power Ballad in a storm? ...just make your concentration save.
<trying to get along>
|
|
I think you misunderstand me. Concentration is mentioned in spellcraft only as it pertains to spell casting. For all other skills concentration is reflected in the tiered difficulties for some tasks.
Acrobatics, for example has modifiers for walking on narrow surfaces. The character has to move at half speed and make a roll. Think of this as the character as 'concentrating' on walking across the tightrope.
In your game, if you want a player to make a concentration roll, have them make an applicable skill roll, depending on the task they're concentrating on. If they're concentrating on casting a spell, have them roll spellcraft. If they're concentrating on holding onto a friend while they hang from a rope (and a bee lands on their face), have them roll climb. If they're trying to stay focused in a debate while to crowd boos, have them roll diplomacy.
A concentration roll IS a skill roll. Don't get hung up on spellcraft. It only applies to spells.
Why don't you stop being angry, houserule the Concentration skill back into your game, and be done with it?
While I agree there is definately a need for a separate Concentration skill, I won't go out of my way making those who disagree with me feel less than equal to me due to their opinion.
Who's angry?
If you mean me I completely understand the points of view of others have merit, and everyone here wants to help make the system the best it can be.
...that said I think people like myself feel like we are swimming up stream. That people are not taking our viewpoints seriously. it does irratate, but I had thought I was remaining civil about it... I mean what's the worst that could happen, I find I don't like the system and I don't use it?
In your game, if you want a player to make a concentration roll, have them make an applicable skill roll, depending on the task they're concentrating on. If they're concentrating on casting a spell, have them roll spellcraft. If they're concentrating on holding onto a friend while they hang from a rope (and a bee lands on their face), have them roll climb. If they're trying to stay focused in a debate where the crowd booing, have them roll diplomacy.
What about my situation earlier posted about dangling above a cliff?
no applicable skill is being used. I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just don't beleive that concentration is solely a factor in skill checks.
I admit to conceptually liking this system, the major problem is that it doesn't jive well with a lot of the rules regarding saves. First of all, it's always possible to fail a save, regardless of your bonus (it's also always possible to succeed, IIRC), and I don't want a level 20 character risking failure when trying to cast an orison on the defensive (purposefully extreme example, I'm illustrating a point).
Why not? a critical fumble could be stumbling while backing away.
Also, I disagree with making Concentration based on Wisdom (favors Druids and Clerics over Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizards in an ability that they should all share equally), and making them based on Fortitude bones most/all of them.
I do think that Concentration and Willpower go hand in hand... the more I think about it the more I like it.
|
|
In your game, if you want a player to make a concentration roll, have them make an applicable skill roll, depending on the task they're concentrating on. If they're concentrating on casting a spell, have them roll spellcraft. If they're concentrating on holding onto a friend while they hang from a rope (and a bee lands on their face), have them roll climb. If they're trying to stay focused in a debate where the crowd booing, have them roll diplomacy.What about my situation earlier posted about dangling above a cliff?
no applicable skill is being used. I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just don't beleive that concentration is solely a factor in skill checks.
Before we go any further with this, Rageheart, who do you think would be more likely to hang onto their buddy in this situation.
1: A person with 5 years of rock-climbing experience or...
2: Someone with no rock climbing experience but a strong resolve. We'll use a relatively athletic nun.
I think you misunderstand me. Concentration is mentioned in spellcraft only as it pertains to spell casting. For all other skills concentration is reflected in the tiered difficulties for some tasks.
Acrobatics, for example has modifiers for walking on narrow surfaces. The character has to move at half speed and make a roll. Think of this as the character as 'concentrating' on walking across the tightrope.
In your game, if you want a player to make a concentration roll, have them make an applicable skill roll, depending on the task they're concentrating on. If they're concentrating on casting a spell, have them roll spellcraft. If they're concentrating on holding onto a friend while they hang from a rope (and a bee lands on their face), have them roll climb. If they're trying to stay focused in a debate while to crowd boos, have them roll diplomacy.
A concentration roll IS a skill roll. Don't get hung up on spellcraft. It only applies to spells.
Hmmm.. this may be an over simplification but are you saying that something like a flat +5 to the DC of a skill would allow you to not provoke AoOs for that skill?
(That said, casting a spell is not a skill, why force a skill check at all?)
Before we go any further with this, Rageheart, who do you think would be more likely to hang onto their buddy in this situation.
1: A person with 5 years of rock-climbing experience or...
2: Someone with no rock climbing experience but a strong resolve. We'll use a relatively athletic nun.
Number 2 of course...the Strong resolve clenches it. Number 1 would be more likely to successfully climb back out saving them both, but that wasn't the scenario.
The scenerio is can I mentally block out the deadly bee sting from my mind or do I drop one or both of us in my panic to swat the Bee.
|
You can easily argue that concentration is an inherent aspect of every skill.No I'm saying that Concentration is an inherent aspect of EVERYTHING, and as such should not be rolled into a skill that is speciallized for magic weilders.
My suggestion would be this: When a PC takes damage, instead of making two skill checks (one concentration, one something else) make one skill check and increase the DC of the roll by the amount of damage taken (or +2 if its just a heckler, etc.). Thus Spellcraft is what is used for casting spells. Climb would be used when climbing, etc.
Ok...I'm glad I asked. For you, I'd suggest just adding concentration back into your campaign as a houserule.
I don't understand. This seems to be more like what was mentioned earlier you disagree so it doesn't matter? (still not mad) I would like rules that are comprehensive, as I can see situations similar to this coming up.
(Stoic Paladin is holding back a boulder that threatens to roll over onto his <friend/holy relic> crushing it while a pesky goblin makes stabs at his spleen.)
|
Well, I haven't read it yet (still downloading) but....Um. Well, how do you make checks to cast on the defensive then? If you are hit for damage when casting do you just shrug it off? Something must take the place of this.
Edit: Oh, it's Spellcraft. That's OK. That's neat. Good going Paizo.
-DM Jeff
My suggestion would be this: When a PC takes damage, instead of making two skill checks (one concentration, one something else) make one skill check and increase the DC of the roll by the amount of damage taken. Thus Spellcraft is what is used for casting spells. Climb would be used when climbing, etc.
And what about situations in which no other skill applies?
Well, I haven't read it yet (still downloading) but....Um. Well, how do you make checks to cast on the defensive then? If you are hit for damage when casting do you just shrug it off? Something must take the place of this.
-DM Jeff
Basiclly you roll the same skill which defines your knowledge of what spells and magical effects look like and allows you to identify what spells are being cast at you.
Spellcraft.
(Don't agree with it but ok.)
|
|
My suggestion would be this: When a PC takes damage, instead of making two skill checks (one concentration, one something else) make one skill check and increase the DC of the roll by the amount of damage taken. Thus Spellcraft is what is used for casting spells. Climb would be used when climbing, etc.And what about situations in which no other skill applies?
Without a concrete example I would say that if there is no applicable skill it is probably an ability check and I would handle it the same.
If it is a task the PC would normally succeed at, make it a base DC of 1, 5 or 10 and go from there.
|
|
Well, I haven't read it yet (still downloading) but....Um. Well, how do you make checks to cast on the defensive then? If you are hit for damage when casting do you just shrug it off? Something must take the place of this.
-DM Jeff
Basiclly you roll the same skill which defines your knowledge of what spells and magical effects look like and allows you to identify what spells are being cast at you.
Spellcraft.
(Don't agree with it but ok.)
Spellcraft is not just the identification of spells, it is a knowledge of how spells work, a familiarity with the concepts and workings of magic. Actually I think the rule makes spellcraft more useful.
At first I was like you and wondered what do to about concentration in situations other than spellcasting. But the rule change does give a boost to a skill that was already too much like Knowledge (Arcana) for me as it was.
My suggestion would be this: When a PC takes damage, instead of making two skill checks (one concentration, one something else) make one skill check and increase the DC of the roll by the amount of damage taken. Thus Spellcraft is what is used for casting spells. Climb would be used when climbing, etc.And what about situations in which no other skill applies?Without a concrete example I would say that if there is no applicable skill it is probably an ability check and I would handle it the same.
Scroll up I've given 2.
If it is a task the PC would normally succeed at, make it a base DC of 1, 5 or 10 and go from there.
OK, at least it's a guideline of sorts... As a DM I do not want a rule removed without something to take it's place. now how do I determine if the Paladin would normally succeed at holding back the boulder while a goblin stabs his spleen? (one of my earlier examples)
Spellcraft is not just the identification of spells, it is a knowledge of how spells work, a familiarity with the concepts and workings of magic. Actually I think the rule makes spellcraft more useful.
At first I was like you and wondered what do to about concentration in situations other than spellcasting. But the rule change does give a boost to a skill that was already too much like Knowledge (Arcana) for me as it was.
My point is that Spellcraft is not required to cast spells AT. ALL. It does not determine your ability manipulating magic. I can have a Lvl 20 Wizard with 0 ranks in Spellcraft. I can NOT have a 20th level rogue Climber with 0 ranks in climb. I would completely back rolling Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft together.
|
|
OK, at least it's a guideline of sorts... As a DM I do not want a rule removed without something to take it's place. now how do I determine if the Paladin would normally succeed at holding back the boulder while a goblin stabs his spleen? (one of my earlier examples)
How heavy is the boulder and how strong is the Paladin? Those are the two questions I would ask.
Depending on the answer I would adjust the DC. The Paladin must make a strength check. (Or alternately, Paladin must make a constitution check). ((A Third possibility would be to make this a Fortitude Save. I could see doing that as well))
Light Load - DC = 1+damage
Medium Load - DC = 3+damage
Heavy Load - DC = 5+damage
More than a Heavy Load - DC = 10+damage
|
|
I've suggested it before but will repeat it here.
I'm happy concentration is gone, its another over complicated skill designed for classes with far too few skill points in the first place (consider an 8 intelligence cleric!).
I do however see the void left by its merging into spellcraft for casting on the defensive. My suggestions is this...
Concentration becomes a form of ability check. a check that equals your character level + constitution modifier. By doing this every class becomes at least balanced with any form of check and it can be applied to any skill check, ability check or even focuses from supplements like book of nine swords.
For me this is a win-win solution, casters save valuable skill points while maintaining a more balanced system that scales with your level.
As I stated before concentration is a part of every skill no matter what attribute is based on. Heres a scenario for you: A skilled orator gets up before a group of like minded individuals starts to give his speach and is heckled. This is a stressful situation based on Int he is receiting from memory what gets him through isn't so much the thought of I have to really concentrate (which is based on Con) but I know what I am doing. It is his experience that makes it happen not his physical ability to handle it.
Every skill or action we take is basically this same scenario whether it be dangling hold your friend while facing death from a bee to stablizing comrades in combat. If there is no associated skill then fall on an attribute check. There aren't to many people that I can think of that practice for every situation so they will have to rely on instincts and hope there body/mind will just get them through it.
As for spellcraft it never said it was concentration. This skill represents the time you put in practicing the mechanics of it all. It doesn't let you shrug of damage or make the pain feel any less. It just represents hours of practicing the gestures/words so you follow through no matter what basically saying it is second nature.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I understand both sides, let me run some concentration tasks past folks and get their opinions.
Now how would you determine the modification to the DCs of any of those checks? I personally find concentration fits nicely.
Also, I like the idea of wrapping autohypnosis into concentration. Allows for those funky monky type tricks.
How heavy is the boulder and how strong is the Paladin? Those are the two questions I would ask.
Depending on the answer I would adjust the DC. The Paladin must make a strength check. (Or alternately, Paladin must make a constitution check). ((A Third possibility would be to make this a Fortitude Save. I could see doing that as well))
Light Load - DC = 1+damage
Medium Load - DC = 3+damage
Heavy Load - DC = 5+damage
More than a Heavy Load - DC = 10+damage
The boulder is easily too heavy for the paladin to move himself, it's all he can manage to hold the boulder in one place. Now if he were just going to wait it out, a CON check sounds like a good answer. if he were trying to lift the boulder then I'd say a strength check was the choice. but if he just needs to hold still and ignore the goblin trying to find a chink in his armor he needs to simply devote himself to ignoring the distractions.
My point is that Spellcraft is not required to cast spells AT. ALL.it is required however to create new spells or magic items.
And under Alpha rules it is required to cast spells in difficult situations. ;)
Being required for creating new spells and items does not make it essential for a wizard.
and simply saying it's required to cast spells in difficult situations in the alpha is a cop out as much as saying that a swim check is required. the description and flavor of the skill does not lend itself to that approach.
I want Autohypnosis balled into Concentration largely because DMs do it anyway, regardless, so it might as well be written in so that I'm not wasting points on a skill that spellcasters get for free.
Absolutely, ideal uses for concentration as well (or even the Will save variant), specifically:
Ignore Caltrop Wound
If you are wounded by stepping on a caltrop, your speed is reduced to one-half normal. A successful Autohypnosis check removes this movement penalty. The wound doesn’t go away—it is just ignored through self-persuasion.
Willpower
If reduced to 0 hit points (disabled), you can make an Autohypnosis check. If successful, you can take a normal action while at 0 hit points without taking 1 point of damage. You must make a check for each strenuous action you want to take. A failed Autohypnosis check in this circumstance carries no direct penalty—you can choose not to take the strenuous action and thus avoid the hit point loss. If you do so anyway, you drop to –1 hit points, as normal when disabled.
|
|
Why don't you stop being angry, houserule the Concentration skill back into your game, and be done with it?
While I agree there is definately a need for a separate Concentration skill, I won't go out of my way making those who disagree with me feel less than equal to me due to their opinion.
I'm angry.
Or something.
Not that I'm going to make anyone feel bad about it, but I haven't seen a lot of support for Concentration being rolled into Spellcraft. In fact, quite the opposite. While skills like Fly have a mixed following, or combining some physical skills into Athletics (some support, some oppose), the Spellcraft thing is (at least from those who have posted) strongly on the side of separating them out. I'm dissappointed that it has not yet been done.
At this point, I don't have a lot of hope that it will be done, but at this stage of the game, that's a bad thing.
If compatability is a goal (and it has been stated that it is) and rolling Concentration into Spellcraft reduces compatability (by changing a mechanic and requiring altering a spell list) it MUST fix a problem in the 3.5 ruleset to be worth changing in the first place.
There was no problem with Spellcraft and there was no problem with Concentration. They were both popular choices for spellcasters. And while a 'spellcasting tax' might be something to consider getting rid of, the only one really benefitting from this change are wizards who already got a +2 Intelligence modifier (since humans now have a blanket +2 and other races have it specifically to Intelligence). I think we have a major problem here.
Haven't any of the feedback results shown this to be the case?
I'm not really angry. At least, not really. But I am frustrated. I think that people have brought up a lot of good points about the problems with this particular combination, and I feel that those points are falling on deaf ears. Now, that can't be the case because Jason has done a lot to show that he is listening. I hate to 'call you out', Jason, but I'd really like to get a full explanation for what you think the advantage of this is, because I'm just not seeing it. And this blantant give-away to wizards at the expense of Druids, Clerics and martial casters seems inexplicable. I'd like to know what you're thinking because you're obviously an intelligent person, so I'm wondering if this is some kind of bizarre Illumintai conspiracy...or something.
|
|
*nods*
Psicraft = Spellcraft for Psionics.
Use Psicraft for Concentration rolls.
This shouldn't be an issue. Last time I checked there was no Taunt skill in the game. Those few abilities that can distract you, put penalties on you, and even then, it was a Will Save, not Concentration you use against them.
Wizards don't need any further imbalancing factors added to them. I tried to come up with a well thought out, detailed post concerning this...but i had lost my Concentration...
A skill that is more difficult to perform requires a higher DC to perform. That shouldn't be a separate check, especially when the skill was used almost exclusively for spellcasters, and served mainly to eat up valuable skill points.
It sounds cool in theory, but in practice, I don't really think the skill is needed, so I'm definitely in favor of the "roll in" to Spellcraft.
Haven't any of the feedback results shown this to be the case?
What type of feedback are you referring to? Do you mean people reading the PDF and not liking what they read, or are you talking about people using the skill, as written, in a playtest and seeing if it works?
I'm not trying to be flip here, but I while I think customer opinion is very important, I also think that some changes really need to be judged in the context of actually be used in the game.
In my games, so far, no spellcaster has come out as being too powerful due to this change. I've had spellcasters loose spells because they couldn't make a concentration check, just like when spellcraft was separate from concentration, and I've had NPCs and PCs alike make cast defensively checks.
So far, nothing seems to be an issue, and no other use for concentration beyond spellcasting has come up for concentration, to underscore a problem with the loss of the skill.
Also, while I've not seen a ton of support for Spellcraft annexing concentration, I've also not seen a huge out pouring of outrage either. I've seen a few people that didn't like it. I don't think there is a lot of passion for or against this, since its not really a "core" D&D feel issue, but more of a mechanics fiddly bit.
I could be wrong though, its just my take.
|
|
I've been play testing features of the Alpha Rules without my group. As a group, they don't think the rules are better than 3.5.
I agree 100%.
They are not worth converting to. The problem is that if they're not worth converting to for the Beta (I'm buying the book) we'll probably never convert. While I'll probably get the books no matter what, if I can't prove they're demonstrably better, we won't switch.
And I can't do that now.
I find that in my personal tests, wizards with Spellcraft are better than every other class. I find that I'd be stupid not to play a wizard that gets a +2 to Intelligence. I find that wizards are 2x as likely to make their spellcraft checks at the low mid levels (5-8) than any other caster.
In short, I find that Spellcraft is a problem.
Since the 'skill tax' seems to be the only reason to combine the skills, and all Wizards are getting effectively +1 skill point (+2 Int) as well as retroactive skill bonuses, I find that this 'skill tax' is a non-issue for wizards. Since it makes wizards 'better' than any other class that has the skill tax removed, I find that it doesn't help the game any. It isn't helping the cleric to take Heal and Diplomacy along with Knowledge (religion) since they've still only got 2 skill points, and they need Spellcraft as much as a wizard does (or more, since they're usually in melee).
Another necessary reason for Concentration to be a skill is for play groups using Tome of Battle - the Diamond Mind discipline requires it. What would you have them use in its place? I suppose Martial Lore could work in a pinch, but it's terribly incongruous flavor-wise.
There are several components of the game that use Concentration, especially in "add-on" rule sets. If it's not actually going to be accounted for, many DMs who try to be backwards compatible with the existing books on their shelf will have to house rule the skill back into the game. This isn't a great idea, IMHO.
And Psionics is in the SRD. Are there plans to ever adapt them to Pathfinder? They're a very popular rule set with many people (and violently hated by others, I'll admit), but it seems to me that addressing them is a good idea. What's the stance Pathfinder will have regarding them in the long run?
Another necessary reason for Concentration to be a skill is for play groups using Tome of Battle - the Diamond Mind discipline requires it. What would you have them use in its place? I suppose Martial Lore could work in a pinch, but it's terribly incongruous flavor-wise.
There are several components of the game that use Concentration, especially in "add-on" rule sets. If it's not actually going to be accounted for, many DMs who try to be backwards compatible with the existing books on their shelf will have to house rule the skill back into the game. This isn't a great idea, IMHO.
And Psionics is in the SRD. Are there plans to ever adapt them to Pathfinder? They're a very popular rule set with many people (and violently hated by others, I'll admit), but it seems to me that addressing them is a good idea. What's the stance Pathfinder will have regarding them in the long run?
Psicraft/Martial Lore work pretty much the same way as Spellcraft for arcane and divine spellcasters, so I really don't have a big problem with it.
I know there probably will be some examples, but for the life of me, outside of psionics/Book of Nine Swords abilities, I have a hard time thinking of any uses for concentration from the "core" rules.
*nods*
Psicraft = Spellcraft for Psionics.
Use Psicraft for Concentration rolls.
This shouldn't be an issue. Last time I checked there was no Taunt skill in the game. Those few abilities that can distract you, put penalties on you, and even then, it was a Will Save, not Concentration you use against them.
And it isn't (I'm so regretting even mentioning Psionics in the first post. If you ignore that post and continue reading you will sse that I have focused on core rules set situations where the Concentration check being rolled into Spellcraft (or any other skill) doesn't really fit the bill.
As far as those few abilities that can distract you, what is the DC on the will save or skill check to avoid dropping an item you are keeping away from halfling wenches who are tickling you? (there, a 3rd example.)
... I don't really think the skill is needed, so I'm definitely in favor of the "roll in" to Spellcraft.
Not needed, so roll it into Spellcraft? gads, why not roll it in to Alchemy instead. Because it does not fit the purpose of the skill. Period. Spellcraft is a Knowledge skill (Based on INT), How is knowing 3rd level Necromantic spells are tinged blue and reek of sulpher supposed to help me shake off the ogre's club and finish my spell?
Haven't any of the feedback results shown this to be the case?
What type of feedback are you referring to? Do you mean people reading the PDF and not liking what they read, or are you talking about people using the skill, as written, in a playtest and seeing if it works?
I'm not trying to be flip here, but I while I think customer opinion is very important, I also think that some changes really need to be judged in the context of actually be used in the game.
How about feed back from gamers who have used systems like D&D since they had to ink their own dice with the little white crayons that came with them. Honestly, in an Alpha test the idea is to rough out the product, stir up ideas and I beleive that the feed back (from qualified gamers or not) is helping do just that.
In my games, so far, no spellcaster has come out as being too powerful due to this change. I've had spellcasters loose spells because they couldn't make a concentration check, just like when spellcraft was separate from concentration, and I've had NPCs and PCs alike make cast defensively checks.
Honestly Spellcasters arn't my concern either it's the non spellcasters who may find themself in a position where they need to Concentrate on something to the exclusion of all else, which is the void left by getting rid of this skill.
So far, nothing seems to be an issue, and no other use for concentration beyond spellcasting has come up for concentration, to underscore a problem with the loss of the skill.
Um, did it three times in this thread... once in this post.
Also, while I've not seen a ton of support for Spellcraft annexing concentration, I've also not seen a huge out pouring of outrage either. I've seen a few people that didn't like it. I don't think there is a lot of passion for or against this, since its not really a "core" D&D feel issue, but more of a mechanics fiddly bit.I could be wrong though, its just my take.
How is mechanically removing a Core skill not a Core issue? If I have a Psion or even a Ninja (Complete Adventurer) who can Jump like mad does that make rolling Jump into Athletics not a core issue?
Psicraft/Martial Lore work pretty much the same way as Spellcraft for arcane and divine spellcasters, so I really don't have a big problem with it.
How is Lore of any kind supposed to fortify the mind enough to ignore effects like Pain, weather, bumble bees and feathers... those things that do not involve spellcasting at all, do not come from a source that forces a saving throw, and happen frequently in many a core setting.
I know there probably will be some examples, but for the life of me, outside of psionics/Book of Nine Swords abilities, I have a hard time thinking of any uses for concentration from the "core" rules.
Reread the thread, I have listed 3 ... off the top of my head.
How is knowing 3rd level Necromantic spells are tinged blue and reek of sulpher supposed to help me shake off the ogre's club and finish my spell?
I hate to use real world examples, but when I first started my job, and I was shipping an order or sending an invoice out, and someone came into the office an asked a question, it took me forever to figure out where I was and get back to work.
Now, for most things that I do on a day to day basis, I can answer questions, zip around our inventory program, and the like without missing a beat. Is this because I can concentrate better than before?
Nope. I have the attention span of squirrel on Red Bull. Its because I know my job backwards and forwards, and I don't really have to think about what I'm doing that much anymore. I know all of the shortcuts in the program I'm using.
Now, if I had to do someone else's job, my ability to complete my current job under pressure would have no bearing on how I do that job.
As far as Spellcraft goes, under duress, you can remember that "urthearax" can be used to complete a quick necromantic spell that has been prepared, or that there are three different gestures that can be properly used to indicate the target of an evocation spell, which makes it easier to finish a spell under stress, as opposed to when you (as a spellcaster) has a lower spellcraft rank, which means you only know one proper gesture, which is harder to perform and easier to forget, for example.
|
|
And how do you address the fact that making it a skill based on any single caster's primary casting attribute doesn't favor that one class over all others?
I mean if it were Wisdom it would be good for the Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Cleric. If you make it Charisma it is good for the Bard and Sorcerer (and the Cleric and Paladin don't mind too much, since they like it for turning). But you make it Intelligence and the only one who likes that is the Wizard.