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Lateat from the 4th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide
For those with no care to link:
If I put 5th-level characters through 13-1/3 encounters of their level, they’ll gain enough experience to become 6th level. On average, they’ll also gain 21,333 gp, 33 sp, and 33 cp. Or that’s the goal, anyway.
In practice, the ochre jelly won’t have any treasure at all.
The young black dragon will have randomly-generated treasure worth 4,800 gp on average (triple standard), but depending on my dice it could come out to nothing at all, or the PCs could come away with a jackpot of over 50,000 gp in cash-equivalent treasure (coins, gems, and art) plus magic armor worth as much as 15,000 gp.
The 5th-level NPC bard will have 4,300 gp worth of gear (skewing heavily toward magic items that the characters will sell at half value).
If I’m a conscientious DM, I should add up the treasure value of all those 13-1/3 encounters and make sure it comes out somewhere close to the target 21,000 gp, so that my characters stay on track. Or else I can just do what most DMs do: trust that it’s all going to balance out, and end up with characters that are under-equipped (nine times out of ten) for their level.
4th Edition treasure works like this:
If I put 5th-level characters through 10 encounters of their level, they’ll gain enough experience to become 6th level. They’ll also gain four magic items above their level (one 6th, one 7th, one 8th, and one 9th), and total gold-equivalent treasure equal to double the value of a 5th-level magic item, or 2,000 gp. That’s the goal, and here’s how it works out in practice.
When I’m planning those 10 encounters, I look at the 5th-level treasure parcels in the DMG. That’s the treasure I’m going to give out, conveniently divided into ten chunks. The ochre jelly’s not guarding any of that treasure, but the dragon has (let’s say) three parcels.
The 5th-level NPC has a 6th-level item—not because he needs it, but because it’s one of the treasure parcels. The characters don’t find magic items that are beneath their notice—they won’t walk out of the drow enclave with a wheelbarrow full of +1 rapiers.
I might even tuck some of that treasure away in a locked vault without a monstrous guard, and save a parcel or two for a quest reward.
It’s a lot easier to be a conscientious DM in Fourth Edition. I don’t have to add up the value of all the treasure I’m giving out and make sure it adds up—I just have to check parcels off the list when I give them out, and make sure that I’ve crossed everything off the list by the time they hit 6th level.
--James Wyatt
Experience points, treasure, action points, and intangible rewards keep characters moving on from encounter to encounter, level to level, and adventure to adventure. Small rewards come frequently, while large rewards provide a big boost once in a while. Both are important.
Without frequent small rewards, players begin to feel like their efforts aren’t paying off. They’re doing a lot of work with nothing to show for it. Without occasional large rewards, encounters feel like pushing a button to get a morsel of food—a repetitive grind with no meaningful variation.
Characters gain experience points (XP) for every encounter they complete. They gain action points when they reach milestones, generally after every two encounters. They gain treasure as they complete encounters—not after every encounter, but sporadically over the course of an adventure. They gain a level after completing eight to ten encounters (including quests).
Gaining a level (see page 27 of the Player’s Handbook) is the most significant reward the game has to offer, but even that reward has its own tidal rhythm. Characters gain new attack powers at odd-numbered levels, and they gain new feats, ability score increases, and global adjustments to all their attacks and defenses at even-numbered levels. Both are exciting, but they feel different.
XP Rewards
The Experience Rewards table provides XP values for monsters of every level—minions, standard single monsters, elite monsters, and solo monsters. Use the “Standard Monster” column for NPCs, traps, and noncombat encounters (skill challenges and puzzles).
Following is the first 10 levels of the Experience Rewards table.
Experience Rewards
Monster Level Minion Standard Monster Elite Solo
1 100 25 200 500
2 125 31 250 625
3 150 38 300 750
4 175 44 350 875
5 200 50 400 1,000
6 250 63 500 1,250
7 300 75 600 1,500
8 350 88 700 1,750
9 400 100 800 2,000
10 500 125 1,000 2,500
Quest Rewards
When the characters finish a major quest that they’ve been pursuing for several sessions, divide the XP reward among all the characters who participated in the quest, even those who aren’t present in the particular session when the PCs complete it. That’s only fair—a major quest is like an encounter that stretches over multiple game sessions, and everyone who participates deserves to share in the reward.
Following is the first 10 levels of the Quest Rewards table.
Quest XP Rewards
PC Level Major Quest Reward Minor Quest Reward
4 PCs 5 PCs 6 PCs
1st 400 500 600 100
2nd 500 625 750 125
3rd 600 750 900 150
4th 700 875 1,050 175
5th 800 1,000 1,200 200
6th 1,000 1,250 1,500 250
7th 1,200 1,500 1,800 300
8th 1,400 1,750 2,100 350
9th 1,600 2,000 2,400 400
10th 2,000 2,500 3,000 500
Awarding Treasure
While experience points are fundamentally an encounter-based (or quest) reward, treasure is a larger-scale reward doled out over the course of an adventure. You plan treasure in terms of the eight to ten encounters it takes characters to advance from one level to the next.
During the course of gaining that level, expect a group of five characters to acquire four magic items ranging in level from one to four levels above the party level. In addition, they should find gold and other monetary treasure equal to the market price of two magic items of their level. So a 6th-level party would find four magic items, one each of levels 7 through 10, and gold worth two 6th-level items, or 3,600 gp.
At the start of an adventure, look at the adventure in chunks of eight to ten encounters. (Include major quest rewards as if they were encounters, and if the party completes five minor quests, include those five rewards as a single encounter as well.) For each of those chunks, look at the treasure parcels on the following pages. Find the level of the characters as they work through those encounters, and note the parcels of treasure you will give out over the course of the encounters.
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Heroic Tier Treasure Parcels
Party Level 5 Total Monetary Treasure: 2,000 gp
1. Magic item, level 9
2. Magic item, level 8
3. Magic item, level 7
4. Magic item, level 6
5. 550 gp, or two 250 gp art objects + 50 gp, or one 500 gp gem + 50 gp
6. 500 gp, or one 250 gp art object + 250 gp, or five 100 gp gems
7. 340 gp, or three 100 gp gems + 40 gp, or one 250 gp art object + one potion of healing + 40 gp
8. 340 gp, or one 250 gp art object + 90 gp, or 300 gp + 400 sp
9. 160 gp, or one 100 gp gem + 60 gp, or one potion of healing + 110 gp
10. 110 gp, or one 100 gp gem + 10 gp, or one potion of healing + 60 gp
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Paragon Tier Treasure Parcels
Party Level 15 Total Monetary Treasure: 50,000 gp
1. Magic item, level 19
2. Magic item, level 18
3. Magic item, level 17
4. Magic item, level 16
5. 14,000 gp, or 140 pp, or one 7,500 gp art object + one 5,000 gp gem + one 1,500 gp art object
6. 12,000 gp, or 120 pp, or one 7,500 gp art object + 4,500 gp
7. 8,500 gp, or one 7,500 gp art object + 1,000 gp, or one 7,500 gp art object + one 1,000 gp gem
8. 8,500 gp, or one 5,000 gp gem + one 2,500 gp art object + 1,000 gp, or eight 1,000 gp gems + 500 gp
9. 5,000 gp, or one 5,000 gp gem, or one 2,500 gp art object + one 1,500 gp art object + one potion of vitality
10. 2,000 gp, or two potions of vitality, or two 1,000 gp gems
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Epic Tier Treasure Parcels
Party Level 25 Total Monetary Treasure: 12,500 pp
1. Magic item, level 29
2. Magic item, level 28
3. Magic item, level 27
4. Magic item, level 26
5. 3,500 pp, or 20 ad + one potion of life + one 50,000 gp art object, or 30 ad + two potions of recovery
6. 3,200 pp, or 20 ad + two potions of recovery + one 50,000 gp art object + 200 pp, or 30 ad + four 5,000 gp gems
7. 2,000 pp, or 20 ad, or 10 ad + four 15,000 gp art objects + eight 5,000 gp gems
8. 2,000 pp, or 1,000 pp + two 50,000 gp art objects, or four 50,000 gp art objects
9. 1,000 pp, or one potion of life, or twenty 5,000 gp gems
10. 800 pp, or five 15,000 gp art objects + one 5,000 gp gem, or one 50,000 gp art object + six 5,000 gp gems
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Commerce
Even small villages give characters ready access to the gear they need to pursue their adventures. Provisions, tents and backpacks, and simple weapons are commonly available. Traveling merchants carry armor, military weapons, and more specialized gear. Most villages have inns that cater to travelers, where adventurers can get a hot meal and a bed, even if the quality leaves much to be desired. When characters stop in at a settlement to rest and restock their supplies, give them a bit of local flavor, such as the name of the inn where they spend the night, and move on with the adventure.
Even small villages rely heavily on trade with other settlements, including larger towns and cities. Merchants pass through regularly, selling necessities and luxuries to the villagers, and any good merchant has far-reaching contacts across the region. When characters have magic items to sell, a traveling merchant is in town—or will be soon—to take it off their hands. The same applies to exotic mundane goods as well: No one in the village makes silk rope or has much use for it, but merchants making their way between major cities carry it all the time.
Traveling merchants are also a great way to introduce adventure hooks to the characters as they conduct their business. Since they make their living traversing roads that are not as safe as they used to be, merchants hire competent guards to keep their goods safe. They also carry news from town to town, including reports of situations that cry out for adventurers to get involved.
These merchants can’t provide specialized services, however. When the characters are in need of a library or a dedicated sage, a trainer who can handle the griffon eggs they’ve found, or an architect to design their castle, they’re better off going to a large city than looking in a village. These services are less important in the economy of the game than magic items and other goods, so you shouldn’t feel as though you have to compromise your common sense for the sake of game play.
Of course, it’s natural for characters to travel far beyond their native villages as they pursue adventure. When they’re in the City of Brass, they should be able to buy even the most expensive magic items readily. If it doesn’t interfere with the flow of your game, it’s fine to expect that characters will travel to larger cities to do business as they reach higher levels and deal with larger sums of money.
The Magic Item Economy
Most of the time, characters find magic items on their adventures that are above their level. These are exciting items, and the characters have a strong incentive to keep these items and use them. As characters attain higher levels, the items they find might replace items they already have—the fighter finds a +3 flaming sword and no longer wants his +2 magic sword.
When this happens, the characters ordinarily sell those items—it’s slightly more beneficial to do that than to use the Disenchant Magic Item ritual, because the characters don’t have to pay the component cost. A merchant, agent, or fence buys items from the character at one-fifth the items’ value, in the hope of selling them at significant profit (usually, above the items’ value). Buyers are hard to find, but the profit to be made makes it worth the merchant’s risk.
Characters can use the monetary treasure they find, as well as the gold from selling items, to acquire new magic items. They can’t make items above their level, and can’t often afford items more than a few levels above theirs. It’s to their benefit to use the Enchant Magic Item ritual for items of their level or lower, rather than buying these items from merchants, agents, or fences, because of the 10–40 percent markup over items’ value that these sellers charge. When they want items above their levels, they have to go to merchants.
The game still works if you decide that magic items can’t be bought and sold in your world. Characters can rely entirely on rituals to duplicate the economy of buying and selling without money changing hands.
The residuum they collect from disenchanting items provides the expensive ritual components they need for the enchanting ritual. If you want characters to rely entirely on these rituals, remove the cost to perform the Disenchant Magic Item ritual, making it just as efficient as selling.
On the flip side, you can drive the characters to markets instead of rituals by altering the prices they pay for magic items. You can remove the random markup, or even alter it to allow the possibility of finding items for sale below normal price. For example, roll 1d6 as usual, but a 1 means the item is available for 10 percent below the base price, a 2 means it’s available for the base price, and 3–6 means a 10 percent to 40 percent markup. Items are readily available, and sometimes characters can get a good deal.
Yes indeed they are very good... JW still get some touchy things for the game.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm, this 'disenchant ritual' of which he speaks harkens back to the 2e spell out of the tome of magic, or to Christine's Anvil :-)
I do think this economy bit requires just as much hand waving as every one before it, so it's nothing to boast about.
As to treasure, does anyone really not tweak the treasure a bit? I mean if someone wants to pour all their feats into, say, the urgosh, and they're wading their way through hoards of mooks, they're going to run into lots of lower level gear that is 'by the module' but if the treasure includes a "+2 greatsword hanging on the wall" That's going to become a +2 urgosh.
All in all, I'm for the article in the same way I'm for 4e in general, indifferent. No new ideas to steal, no things that make me twitch *coughspellplaguecough*
I knew there was going to be a Disenchant Ritual before, but it is interesting to see some peeks at the new Enchant Ritual as well.
I like that they've reduced the average number of encounters 'till level from 13.3 to 10. Metric system ftw!
I'm not 100% on the treasure parcel idea. I like it in concept, but would hate it if players were able to memorize it. "Gee, a level 29 item. That means there is still a 28, 27, and 26 to find before level." That'd suck. But then, if each level has 10 parcels, and there are 30 levels ...
Stupid time, moving so slow!
I agree with others, this economic system makes as much sense as any I've seen in DnD. Which, of course, is to say none at all. Probably for the best so. Economics is hard!
Cheers! :)
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I don't mind the new mark-up and merchant rules, but these seem pretty easy for most DMs to adjust with houserules.
However, a few flavour suggestions I didn't like:
1. PCs will receive exactly what they need from enemies. The villain doesn't carry a ROd of Lordly Might to use it on the PCs...no he saves it so that he is easier to kill and then they can loot his corpse (and plus, he probably isn't high enough level to use the item...bleh).
2. They PCs will not take all the treasure with them, only the major loot including their 4 magic items and a certain amount of coin. It explicitly states that even though the adventurers kill an entire squad of drow, they don't get their +1 longswords, because those items are "beneath their level" Now this may just be my opinion, but that is pretty damn unrealistic. That would be like saying:
DM: The goblins take refuge in the barn. The shoddy old stable is filled with straw and lit by torches on the walls.
Player: I use the torch to light up the stables, maiming them.
DM: Uh...you can't use the torch, it isn't there anymore.
Player: Why not!?
DM: Because it is beneath your level. Also, no taking the goblins leather armor back to town either...
That isn't good advice, that is lazy DMing.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And the points of light start going out . . .
To be replaced by floodlights for the grand opening of the D&D Hypermarket!
A fully integrated regional economy in less than 9 months. Dang they are good!
Provided you ignore that little bit about how you can easily ban the purchase and sale of magic items by making a change to the disenchant ritual.
Or maybe this is a leftover comment about third edition. Seems like that was the edition that added prices for magic items and gp limits so you could buy and sell them (and pity the players of the fool that tries to shut down the 3e magic item market).
However, a few flavour suggestions I didn't like:
1. PCs will receive exactly what they need from enemies. The villain doesn't carry a ROd of Lordly Might to use it on the PCs...no he saves it so that he is easier to kill and then they can loot his corpse (and plus, he probably isn't high enough level to use the item...bleh).
2. They PCs will not take all the treasure with them, only the major loot including their 4 magic items and a certain amount of coin. It explicitly states that even though the adventurers kill an entire squad of drow, they don't get their +1 longswords, because those items are "beneath their level" Now this may just be my opinion, but that is pretty damn unrealistic. That would be like saying:
Are these actual quotes from the article? I struggle these days to read a whole 4th edition article.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Are these actual quotes from the article? I struggle these days to read a whole 4th edition article.However, a few flavour suggestions I didn't like:
1. PCs will receive exactly what they need from enemies. The villain doesn't carry a ROd of Lordly Might to use it on the PCs...no he saves it so that he is easier to kill and then they can loot his corpse (and plus, he probably isn't high enough level to use the item...bleh).
2. They PCs will not take all the treasure with them, only the major loot including their 4 magic items and a certain amount of coin. It explicitly states that even though the adventurers kill an entire squad of drow, they don't get their +1 longswords, because those items are "beneath their level" Now this may just be my opinion, but that is pretty damn unrealistic. That would be like saying:
Only in the most literal narrowly read way. The bad guys in 4e are built without using magic items, so you don't need to have a bunch of drow running around with +1 rapiers - they don't need them. The idea that the PC's can't even recover such items is a gross misreading of the article. The drow won't even have them.
Similarly, if you read some of the other articles about villians, they state that even though you don't need to give them magic items, you can do so and adjust their level accordingly. Again, the example of the rod of lordly might is an intentionally narrow interpretation of the article. The villian could use it, and there are rules for such an event.
Finally, the only announced item type that requires a character to be of a certain level are rings.
I guess it's easier to make stuff up about 4e than to take the time to understand it. As usual, the facts won't get in the way of the hating.
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Provided you ignore that little bit about how you can easily ban the purchase and sale of magic items by making a change to the disenchant ritual.
Provided you ignore that little bit about how the default assumption of the setting is that the hypermart and supra-economy exist.
And provided you ignore the whole incompatability with the Points of Light design article back in August 07.
Yeah, you can just make a change to the disenchant ritual. That is not the standard way the rules work.
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I guess it's easier to make stuff up about 4e than to take the time to understand it. As usual, the facts won't get in the way of the hating.
Reminds me of a signature I used a while back on a different board: "Never let the truth get in the way of telling a good story."
Hey stedd, how was fishing?
Sit down, I've got a good story about the trip...
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The article leaves me with a clear impression that 4E has been designed specifically for gamist style play.
I think thats been the design goal, however I'm not sure "gamist" is a good fit. Cinematic comes to mind. Rather than encounters, we have scenes. Each scene is its own unique entity with a start, middle and finish. They are "on camera". Things like extended rest are "off camera". You don't see the hero sleep in the movies, you just see the lights go out at the end of one scene and the lights on at the start of the next.
I imagine the economy is meant for those "off camera" moments. Thats not to say you couldn't turn an economic transition into a "on camera" scene. Examples of rescuing a merchant and lo he has magic weapons for sale, for example.
By and large I think the default assumption is:
"These transactions are possible. Who, what, how, why, when these transactions take place are relatively unimportant unless the DM makes them important." (i.e. makes the part of the "movie")
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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reading it again...
It says that Merchants usually buy items for 1/5th the list price, hoping to sell them at a mark up. Why wouldn't the players cut out the middleman and sell them themselves? War stories not withstanding, of course.
Also why would a merchant invest in carrying around stuff they might sell randomly? "Hmm, I'm going to hicksville. I'll bring some baubles from the big city, maybe some new farming impliments... Oh, and a +1 Longsword and silk rope in case I run into adventurers!"
A LOT of people seem to be disregarding the fact that if you don't like an assumption, you can easily change it. By the looks of it, many seem to regard the statements we've heard as law, when they are guidelines. You can still have your BBEG wield a Rod of Lordly Might, and it did not say that a person COULDN'T use an item beneath their level.
Honestly, in my 3.5 game my players go through dungeons without looting anyone except bosses, completely disregarding the possessions of NPCs and monsters.
Also why would a merchant invest in carrying around stuff they might sell randomly? "Hmm, I'm going to hicksville. I'll bring some baubles from the big city, maybe some new farming impliments... Oh, and a +1 Longsword and silk rope in case I run into adventurers!"
Why would they carry that sort of thing around? Because it makes a good story, that's why. That is alaso a good reason for the merchant to Not have the exact item the players want.
The major problem magic items in the economy, which has always been part of DnD, its that it is not a 'true' economy. These rules aren't and never were designed to represent how normal people trade goods like cows and sheep.
These rules about how the players, as adventurers in a gaming world, acquire and sell magic items which only they, and the people they fight, will ever use.
When you try and join the normal farmers economy to the player character's magic item economy, they just don't fit together. They never have. For 4E they've decided not to try and make them fit, but to instead build the magic item economy around balancing the players based upon their level, so that DM's and adventure designers can be more confident of the power level of a random party of PC's when they run through your pregenerated dungeon.
As far as I can understand, the advice being given to DMs seems to be that monsters/NPCs should never have a magic item, unless it is treasure which they can't use. If they can use it, that affects the level of the encounter.
No, this is not what they are saying.
The way DM's build monsters and give out treasure has significantly changed for 4th edition. You no longer HAVE to build that drow army with a host of magic weapons and armor, because the rules for building monsters are no longer as strict as they once were. In 3rd edition, if i wnted the 10th level drow fighter to be a challenge to my 10th level party, he HAD to be in magic armor. He HAD to have a magic sword, or he would be a complete push over. Now, unless you want his weapon to be special magic item the players will gain by killing him, you can just up the Drow's attack bonus without making their sword magic.
When they talk about not finding low level gear, what they are saying is that you probably shouldn't build a whole dungeon full of people who wear +1 swords, +1 shields, and +1 armor, and send them up against a 15th level party.
Players at 15th level simply don't need a those +1 items, and they certainly don't need 3 dozen of them. All of that stuff is just going to be sold or disenchanted. You can still give them that, but you need to realize that this is giving out a significant treasure boost to the party, because those swords will be sold and used to buy new, more powerful and thus level appropriate items. That means they should replace one of the magic item rewards that the party is expected to get over the course of their leveling process. (If you have not read the reward artical, it expalins it there.)
Instead of bothering with all that, what the DM should do is give that treasure parcial to an enemy in the form of say a magic flaming sword, something one of the players wants. That way, they have to beat the bad guy at the end of the dungeon, or the high level drow guard captain half way through the fort.
This way, the magic item gets used against you, and the party has the fun of finding a powerful useful item in battle. (Something most of us agree is more fun then buying your epic sword from a shop.)
This style of treasure rewards is clearly shown in the way they want you to reward players with per encounter rewards over time. They have never, in any artical, said that the monsters should not use the item against the PCs.
My reading of that article was that the 20% selling price was the pawnshop price. Basically, a merchant is buying an item in the hope of selling it later on but he had no guarantee.
Looking at the economy listed in the article, it sounds like the economy is closer to the high-value antiquities market (things like Faberge eggs, Picasso paintings etc..)
I've just noticed another factor in the pricing of the items and how much you get back for selling them. Look at the price points for the Flaming sword.
Lvl 5 +1 1,000 gp
Lvl 10 +2 5,000 gp
Lvl 15 +3 25,000 gp
Lvl 20 +4 125,000 gp
Lvl 25 +5 625,000 gp
Lvl 30 +6 3,125,000 gp
Each level is 5 times as expensive as the previous one. So, if you wanted to sell a level 10 item, it would be enough to immediatly buy a different 5th level item. that means trading in the magic sword for the magic armor means you lose a single +1 for the exchange.
It keeps the magic item power level down when the party goes through market place to exchange their weapons.
Instead of bothering with all that, what the DM should do is give that treasure parcial to an enemy in the form of say a magic flaming sword, something one of the players wants. That way, they have to beat the bad guy at the end of the dungeon, or the high level drow guard...
This is SUCH an amazing change to 4th Edition. I don't see how even the grognards or PRPG zealots can argue with the brilliance of this scheme.
I probably won't stick to the "standard" list of things to give out. I'll probably deviate from it no doubt. But, it's definitely an amazing concept. A welcome addition to standard D&D.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've just noticed another factor in the pricing of the items and how much you get back for selling them. Look at the price points for the Flaming sword.
Lvl 5 +1 1,000 gp
Lvl 10 +2 5,000 gp
Lvl 15 +3 25,000 gp
Lvl 20 +4 125,000 gp
Lvl 25 +5 625,000 gp
Lvl 30 +6 3,125,000 gpIt keeps the magic item power level down when the party goes through market place to exchange their weapons.
Interesting number crunching, thanks for the catch. I guess my bugaboo is still the player merchant.
3.x "Why can't my wizard sell that +1 sword for 2k. Bob wizard can!"
Designers: We didn't design the game to be Merchants and Measures, deal with it!
4.x "He wants to buy my +2 pigsticker for 1000 and sell it to bill warrior for 5,000? Hey Bill? I'll sell it to you for 2.5K!
Designer: You can't do that.
4.x convert: What? You couldn't bother to fix that? $%#$%#$%#$%#$
Half Priced books Vs. E-bay arguement. I sell my books at half priced for a meager sum, because I don't want to invest the effort to list and ship on E-bay. If I were to sell my Land of 8M dreams or White Wolf Tarokka deck I'd go to e-bay because I know the effort is worth the reward. Apparently there's no Scry-bay in the points of light.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Instead of bothering with all that, what the DM should do is give that treasure parcial to an enemy in the form of say a magic flaming sword, something one of the players wants. That way, they have to beat the bad guy at the end of the dungeon, or the high level drow guard...This is SUCH an amazing change to 4th Edition. I don't see how even the grognards or PRPG zealots can argue with the brilliance of this scheme.
I probably won't stick to the "standard" list of things to give out. I'll probably deviate from it no doubt. But, it's definitely an amazing concept. A welcome addition to standard D&D.
Yes, it's so amazing that those of us who would write adventures for our friends (you know, before the advent of adventure paths) would do this. *rolls eyes*
Yes, it's so amazing that those of us who would write adventures for our friends (you know, before the advent of adventure paths) would do this. *rolls eyes*
Naturally, those of us experienced with handing out treasure would just tailor ours to fit our players *rolls eyes*, but you have to look at this through the eyes of a *new* DM.
This is a quick, streamlined system - and something that us *experienced* DMs have been doing all along. It's good to see this as part of the STANDARD operating procedure in the rulebooks instead of archaic randomized treasure tables...
In addition, having the dozens of lower powered magic items removed from monsters creates a much more fluid system for treasure (and the economy). And, this is the real brilliance of the system, not tailored treasure.
Yes, it's so amazing that those of us who would write adventures for our friends (you know, before the advent of adventure paths) would do this. *rolls eyes*
Exactly Matt. They have looked at the way people actually play, and chanegd the game to match that.
That is one of the major themes of 4th edition. They have been been including the things that smart DM's like you and your friends have been doing for years into the actual rules. Look at the quests excerpt, where they say right out that's what they're doing.
"Now, I can hear the old timers quibble: “Come on, Stephen, quest XP is nothing new, I’ve been doing it for years.” And if you quibble thusly, you’d be right."
Now that level appropriate, and pc specific items are actually part rules, new players will see the way you play as how DnD is actually played. That's excellent!
Sure, it's nothing new to how us old timers actually play, but it is new to the rules, and the rules are how new players learn to play. i'm glad that this has become part of those rules.
The parcel idea is cool on a management point of view, but as many other aspects of 4E, it frames the DM's choices. This will surely come back to haunt many trying to run their home games.
If one ever chooses to give a different array of items and treasure, I can hear some players who have read the DMG (which is to say, most players of the game) whining they didn't get the "right" amount of treasure at this or that level.
If one ever chooses to give a different array of items and treasure, I can hear some players who have read the DMG (which is to say, most players of the game) whining they didn't get the "right" amount of treasure at this or that level.
I think as with all editions of D&D, the DM has Rule 0 at his beck and call. :)
I see most of these rules in the DMG as guidelines for beginner DMs. I think an experienced DM is well within his rights to modify any and all rules he desires, so long as he clearly explains that he is doing so to the players before the campaign begins. If the players disagree with the changes, they can either find a new campaign or make some sort of compromise with the DM in question.
Provided you ignore that little bit about how you can easily ban the purchase and sale of magic items by making a change to the disenchant ritual.Provided you ignore that little bit about how the default assumption of the setting is that the hypermart and supra-economy exist.
And provided you ignore the whole incompatability with the Points of Light design article back in August 07.
Yeah, you can just make a change to the disenchant ritual. That is not the standard way the rules work.
From the sounds of it, relying on Enchant/Disenchant Rituals sounds like its one of several standards.
So on further thought:
No more piles of low level magical items. +1
You can disenchant items, so there is a sink preventing low level items from building up to ubiquitous levels. +1
No magic shops, but most merchants are willing to risk never finding a buyer for your magic stuff in heroic tier (who knows what Paragon is like). +1
I like it.
For those complaining about the 1/5th sell rate, remember those merchants probably don't know someone who can afford to buy the item at an asking price. They're taking the risk they'll find that buyer, someday, before someone takes the item from them by force or it is misplaced. If the players want to try and find that person themselves, they're welcome to, but they might never manage to get it off their hands.
I likes it.
Plus, the magic item article today seems to say the level restriction for rings is gone. Yay!
Cheers! :)
Honestly, in my 3.5 game my players go through dungeons without looting anyone except bosses, completely disregarding the possessions of NPCs and monsters.Come on, Kaile!
Saddle up!
Free treasure lying around!
<hitches up the loot wagon>
In the name of the Valorous One! Let us put this to good use! My heralds, knights, foot soldiers, mages and cohort all need equipping!
Bringing the portable hole over now...
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When they talk about not finding low level gear, what they are saying is that you probably shouldn't build a whole dungeon full of people who wear +1 swords, +1 shields, and +1 armor, and send them up against a 15th level party.
Players at 15th level simply don't need a those +1 items, and they certainly don't need 3 dozen of them. All of that stuff is just going to be sold or disenchanted. You can still give them that, but you need to realize that this is giving out a significant treasure boost to the party, because those swords will be sold and used to buy new, more powerful and thus level appropriate items. That means they should replace one of the magic item rewards that the party is expected to get over the course of their leveling process. (If you have not read the reward artical, it expalins it there.)
From Wizards Article:
"The 5th-level NPC has a 6th-level item—not because he needs it, but because it’s one of the treasure parcels. The characters don’t find magic items that are beneath their notice—they won’t walk out of the drow enclave with a wheelbarrow full of +1 rapiers."
I can see where I misinterpreted the first sentence. I took it to mean that the character does not use the treasure, but they meant that the NPC was given treasure not to balance the CR but as treasure (although I still disagree that NPCs should only have treasure that the PCs need). But my complaint about the last statement is still accurate: the article says that if there is a bunch of +1 equipment lying around the PCs don't find it.
I can tell you now, if my players get hit with a +1 longsword, they damn well want to be able to pick it up and use it (and then sell it).
FWIW, Doran, I read the second sentence as saying "characters won't adventure in dungeons full of magic stuff beneath their notice, NOT that they wouldn't find it if it were there."
Squads of Drow Warriors simply aren't all packing magic weapons ... heck I think the number of magic items a 4E character will see in a game is going to be drastically less than an average 3E character. There just aren't that many around anymore.
Just my take though!
Cheers! :)
Edit: Just because the item was put there by the DM "for the players" means it actually has to be specifically tailored for their use. I would easily see putting an item in the hands of an NPC that maximized his abilities still a good item for my players to get. In fact, I've always felt that giving an NPC something you didn't plan on the players owning was just asking for trouble ...
I'm not about to arm my monsters with a crapton of magical spiked chains just because the fighter is packing one, which is why I like the crafting rules: if they find a magic sword, the wizard can disassemble it and make it into something more appropriate.
From Wizards Article:
"The 5th-level NPC has a 6th-level item—not because he needs it, but because it’s one of the treasure parcels. The characters don’t find magic items that are beneath their notice—they won’t walk out of the drow enclave with a wheelbarrow full of +1 rapiers."
I can see where I misinterpreted the first sentence. I took it to mean that the character does not use the treasure, but they meant that the NPC was given treasure not to balance the CR but as treasure (although I still disagree that NPCs should only have treasure that the PCs need).
Hey Jal Dorak, nice to see you here on the 4E boards.
I agree somewhat with you about the issue of tailoring the treasure to the characters, even though I often do otherwise.
I've found that a 50/50 approach is the best way to go. Some of the items should be tailored to the PC's specificaly, say the fighter has been getting roughed up a lot due to his low AC and needs a better suit of armor.
But I always put that aromr on a viable challenge. Tthe Orc chief is wearing it, and will laughingly mock the party as they try and hit him. Once the PC gets that armor, he loves it all the more for having pried it from the cold dead hands of his enemy. I thnk that is exactly what they folks at WotC want, because in all their modules the treasure is alwas in the hands of a monster capable of using it.
Other times I tailor the treasure to the enimies themselves, giving them unique weapons that nobody in the party uses because it will make the monster awesome.
But my complaint about the last statement is still accurate: the article says that if there is a bunch of +1 equipment lying around the PCs don't find it.I can tell you now, if my players get hit with a +1 longsword, they damn well want to be able to pick it up and use it (and then sell it).
Dang it, again we agree. If the monsters have +1 swords, then the player MUST be allowed to pick them up. No exceptions. If it's on the enemy, then it must be loot. It's completely crazy to give the monsters equipment that the party can't take.
But, unlike in 3.X, you can now build an effective high level humanoid monster without decking them out in glittering magic items. So there's no mechanical reason the drow at level 8 has to have a +1 sword to be effective against the PC's, leading to that load of +1 rapiers.
You can still give them to the PC's, that's all good because of the rate of conversion and that the enchant item ritual is capped so that the players cannot just take 100 +1 swords and make a overpowered magic item at low levels. So if you want the world to be swimming in magic items, hand em out like candy! It would make for a fun world in my opinion, where every farmer has a magic sword, but you don't have to.
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But, unlike in 3.X, you can now build an effective high level humanoid monster without decking them out in glittering magic items. So there's no mechanical reason the drow at level 8 has to have a +1 sword to be effective against the PC's, leading to that load of +1 rapiers.
I completely agree with your statement, the problem I have is that they didn't put this caveat in the article about treasure. They just said "they don't find it" not "they don't find it, because it doesn't have to be there".
Hopefully, this is a presentation issue that will not appear in the rulebooks.
If you are curious, I generally criticize everything. I will be playtesting 4th Edition in June, and will probably buy the H1 adventure before playtesting anyway, just to see how it looks.
...They gain action points when they reach milestones, generally after every two encounters.
Amusing use of the word "milestone" :)
I completely agree with your statement, the problem I have is that they didn't put this caveat in the article about treasure. They just said "they don't find it" not "they don't find it, because it doesn't have to be there".
Hopefully, this is a presentation issue that will not appear in the rulebooks.
It is a very minor difference in wording, but it unfortunatly does leave open both interpratations. We can make an inferance that it should be "they don't find it, because it doesn't have to be there" based upon the way that treasure rewards are described in the another artical, but that just isn't solid evidence.
In 3.X they didn't really talk at all about how you should place magic items, because of the random treasure tables and the way that wealth in general was distributed. However, I suspect that they will go much more in depth into this topic, because of how in depth the DMG excerpts have been about how you run a game effectivly.
And I wouldn't say you're critizising here, so much as discussing the possible implications of the excerpt.
And for the record, the new guidelines are long overdue. The older system(s) made little of no effort to manage monetary/magic rewards.
I will always remember the sheer quantity of magic my group acquired when we originally played ToEE.
Actually, to be fair, one of the things that's weirded me out for a long time about 3/3.5 is starting at latest at 3rd level, all the squads of goons PCs run into have masterwork weapons. When my 4th level PCs finished wiping out a guild consisting largely of 2nd level theives, they'd accumulated no less less than 15 masterwork rapiers, probably closer to 20, just from beating low ranking, thuggish goons. If they stop to to think about it, it begins to look like masterwork rapiers are more common than not-masterwork weapons, which makes the masterwork weapons not masterwork, but just... competent, and the not-masterwork ones are sucksterwork.
A treasure/monster-equipment setup like 4E proposes allows me to use the words "Master Work" and actually mean an incredibly exquisite blade created by a Master Craftsman whose reputation may be akin to legend, and whose swords are worth scaling the mountain to reach him, and yay, a dozen mountains besides, were he to ask it as his price. I like that. I like having value put back into the idea of the words "master work."
And for the record, the new guidelines are long overdue. The older system(s) made little of no effort to manage monetary/magic rewards.
I will always remember the sheer quantity of magic my group acquired when we originally played ToEE.
Just running our way through the AoW path my group accumulated so much treasure they literally didn't care when they got to the final dragon hoard. the treasure given out was so excessive, they were outfitting the cohort with max bonus items and the two weapon ranger who had boosted those awesome lawful swords up to +8 each.
I'm kinda looking forward to people caring about their individual magic items, so that people don't just assume they're be getting a magic item for every slot.