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Over at the ENWorld forums, one reader flaunted how s/he was able to obtain the set for less than $60. A hobby store owner responded in disgust on how could s/he compete at such prices.
What do you think of his/her dilemma? Are such stores justified for such responses? Or it's really their own fault not able to compete?
Over at the ENWorld forums, one reader flaunted how s/he was able to obtain the set for less than $60. A hobby store owner responded in disgust on how could s/he compete at such prices.
What do you think of his/her dilemma? Are such stores justified for such responses? Or it's really their own fault not able to compete?
I probably shouldn't comment because I don't knowing all the economics of the situation.
There's a little bit of "both/and" in this situation.
If local community game stores never get support, then they go out of business, and the only option becomes large retail outfits and shopping online.
On the other hand, in this economy, everyone has to try to get the best value they can, and that's no sin. Gas is expensive, banks are loathing to give loans, and times are a little hard. Again, it's no sin to be frugal.
I guess my problem is that when I was a young man, I was taught it was vulgar to brag about how much less one spent on something than someone else. Seriously, I remember as a kid one of my older sister's in-laws always went around starting up conversations with people about where they shopped, and then boasted how he had gotten the same car, shoes, watch, etc, somewhere else at a cheaper price. Maybe they were old fashioned, but my parents and older siblings were pretty much disgusted with the behavior. And they talked bad about the guy behind his back obviously, so that a child could evesdrop, lol, so I suppose they weren't perfect either.
I suppose it would be a lot different if you were telling someone who was strapped for cash where they could find a better value, before they had actually bought it.
::shrug:
I guess I can't call it 'bad', but there is a distasteful quality to it. I'll be surprised if anyone adopts the same perspective however. I've seen one of my fellow posters doing this just the other day and was patently unabashed.
Like it or not, I order all of my book on-line at the lowest price I can find. I think the small bookstore is going the way of the dodo; I don't think there's any reason to get angry about it.
I don't think it's the FLGSs' faults. They just don't buy books in the huge quantities that online retailers do, so their prices are unavoidably higher. It would be wrong to blame them for not stocking so much product, since it's pretty much not a feasible option for them.
Honestly, if I didn't want to get the books as fast as possible by buying them at the store the day they come out, I most likely would buy the books online to save some money.
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Over at the ENWorld forums, one reader flaunted how s/he was able to obtain the set for less than $60. A hobby store owner responded in disgust on how could s/he compete at such prices.
What do you think of his/her dilemma? Are such stores justified for such responses? Or it's really their own fault not able to compete?
They will never be able to compete with the likes of the large online retailers who can order thousands and thousands of copies (at a discount, naturally) and don't have all the overhead that running an actual store entails. In a better world, the hobby store owner would be able to compete, but alas... we don't live in that world. It's just like how large discount chains push the small Mom 'n Pop stores out of business. I do think that the hobby store owners are understandable bitter. I feel bad for the hobby store owner but I order online all the time because I can make my dollars go so much farther and am understandably self-centered that way. I do try to support companies that I like, even if it costs a little more, but I have to draw the line somewhere I guess.
Over at the ENWorld forums, one reader flaunted how s/he was able to obtain the set for less than $60. A hobby store owner responded in disgust on how could s/he compete at such prices.
What do you think of his/her dilemma? Are such stores justified for such responses? Or it's really their own fault not able to compete?
That problem is affecting not just the hobby store, but all brick and morter book sellers. The online folks just have the numbers to sell books at a Huge discount, much much closer to the distributer's price then the Hobby store can.
It comes down to loyalty and community really, not prices.
Hobby stores have to realize that they are no longer in the business of selling books, minis, or cards, but in the business of selling a community. They are never going to be able to compete withthe distributors they themselves buy from, but I'm willing to spend extra money on books if I feel that doing so supports a community I'm a part of, or at least a business that appreciates me.
Gaming books are like coffee to me. Starbucks sells coffee, a beverage which is avaible in a million locations, often at much cheaper prices. In fact, the closest coffee shop to my home is a place called Cafe Brazil, where for 2 dollars i can get all i can drink of 20 different flavors. The reason I drive past their to go to Starbucks is because I feel welcome at Starbucks, where as the folks at Cafe Brazil make me feel Very unwanted. At the Starbucks I go to, I'm encouraged to spend hours in the store in thier comfortable chairs, talk with the people, read thier newspapers, and generally make an afternoon of enjoying myself. In the process, I buy far to much overpriced coffee, but it doesn't feel overpriced. I've gotten far more out of the expirence then just coffee.
I have not, in recent years, ever gotten that expirence from a game store. I get told to put down books i'm skimming through, and run out of the store after a half hour if I haven't bought something. I've been to several local stores, been to the local torneys and game days, and every time I leave with the feeling that the owners would have much prefered I just buy somethign and leave.
That is why for the last year or two, in most cases I've bought my new books from Paizo. I felt comfortable here, and their wit and good nature earned my loyalty. (Their answering machine message alone sparked several purchases.)
Personally, no. I have no guilt for ordering 4e online.
Good brick and mortar stores are going to provide service beyond the products on the shelves and they will survive long into the digital age. Those that don't won't be missed.
What's more, I got mine through the Tome Show's Amazon store (www.thetomeshow.com) so I am getting the online discount and supporting D&D chatter and service at the same time. The best of both worlds.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Over at the ENWorld forums, one reader flaunted how s/he was able to obtain the set for less than $60. A hobby store owner responded in disgust on how could s/he compete at such prices.
What do you think of his/her dilemma? Are such stores justified for such responses? Or it's really their own fault not able to compete?
I don't think it's a case of just D&D 4e, but this is why mom & pop shops are struggling so much these days. For an extreme niche shop like a FLGS there are rare times when a release comes along as large and (theoretically) profitable as a new D&D release date. So for the number of bodies that will stay out of their stores, the owners are justifiably mad. But when it comes down to it, a consumer is going to go with what costs them less. If I had spare cash and wasn't pinching pennies just to buy Paizo and other gaming products monthly, I'd gladly pay a little extra to support local business, but I have bills to pay and you have to look out for number one. That said, I still haven't decided if I'm going to spend anything on the 4e books, as I don't need more paperweights on my shelf, and there are MUCH better things to send my money on. But if I do get them, it will most likely be through Amazon, since spending more than necessary on a product like 4e is completely stupid.
I have not, in recent years, ever gotten that experience from a game store. I get told to put down books i'm skimming through, and run out...
Wow, I've never had that happen to me at my local game store. Truth be told, my store is really small and, as it mostly focuses on board games, doesn't have much of a selections, but I often go there to browse through their books, often for 30 minutes or more. I've never once been tossed out. I guess that's why I'm considering buying my 4E books from them.
I have not, in recent years, ever gotten that experience from a game store. I get told to put down books i'm skimming through, and run out...Wow, I've never had that happen to me at my local game store. Truth be told, my store is really small and, as it mostly focuses on board games, doesn't have much of a selections, but I often go there to browse through their books, often for 30 minutes or more. I've never once been tossed out. I guess that's why I'm considering buying my 4E books from them.
Then you understand why I am not doing the same. I'm glad you've had much better expirences then me.
I think the problem is that there is a large selection of Hobby stores here, and the game stores have simply not become very welcoming places.
The local stores all run weekly games for various card games, mini games, and rpgs, but whenever you talk with the staff during those games they are irritated about having so many people taking up space without buying anything, even when those games have a up front purchase involved.
This is not to say every game store is like this. I just don't know of a good one nearby.
Then you understand why I am not doing the same. I'm glad you've had much better expirences then me.
I think the problem is that there is a large selection of Hobby stores here, and the game stores have simply not become very welcoming places.
The local stores all run weekly games for various card games, mini games, and rpgs, but whenever you talk with the staff during those games they are irritated about having so many people taking up space without buying anything, even when those games have a up front purchase involved.
This is not to say every game store is like this. I just don't know of a good one nearby.
But Teiran, how can this be? Everyone knows gaming stores are run by gamers, and surely we're the most open minded peaceful creatures on this green earth. Snootiness, irritibility, and an inability to relate to our fellows? Definitely not a gaming store (or was that the other way around?)
Cheers! :)
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But Teiran, how can this be? Everyone knows gaming stores are run by gamers, and surely we're the most open minded peaceful creatures on this green earth. Snootiness, irritibility, and an inability to relate to our fellows? Definitely not a gaming store (or was that the other way around?)Cheers! :)
LOL. We're pretending to play imaginary characters killing other imaginary things, and we argue on which rule system is the best means to accomplish it :)
LOL. We're pretending to play imaginary characters killing other imaginary things, and we argue on which rule system is the best means to accomplish it :)
But Teiran, how can this be? Everyone knows gaming stores are run by gamers, and surely we're the most open minded peaceful creatures on this green earth. Snootiness, irritibility, and an inability to relate to our fellows? Definitely not a gaming store (or was that the other way around?)Cheers! :)
If I can't kill imaginary critters in precisely the imaginary way I want to, the system is obviously crap! :P
I'd feel guilty about ordering 4e. Period. :)
That being said, I would need to know where I go what, and for what purpose. For me, I buy a lot of .pdfs that I cannot find at my FLGS. I play with my friends at home. Therefore, most times I buy online.
If I wanted to tryout a new game (i.e. 4e) and expect some help with the playtest rules, perhaps at a sanctioned game or such, then I'd support the local game community, and store. I buy my dice and cards and stuff at the local store, but I cannot pass-up a great online discount.
Amazon has the best dealy-yo. Who is gonna sympathise with me for being over charged if i buy it at a game store? smurf
I buy a lot of books/music/DVDs over the Internet, just to save $$$ (the frustrating part is having to wait on mail delivery). I rely on brick and mortar stores to browse purchases I am iffy on. However, having to go 100 miles to any kind of specialty retailer makes browsing something I only get to do every other month or so.
I guess in my situation I'm dipping into the best of both world. The FLGS near me tries to take care of the gamers that come through, but seeing as how they are a hobby store and the bulk of their business comes from RC planes/trains and models (I make this assumption based of floorspace devoted to various product). They try . . . but of the five guys working there, only one of the brothers (family owned business) knows anything about RPG's, and he's usually so bogged down with a ton of the other other minutia of running the store that he can't help out every single customer.
It was because of this, that I turned to the interent to purchase my d20 Modern books o so long ago. Found a seller on eBay that turned out to be a brick and mortar FLGS that just happened to put their stock up on eBay as well.
After a while, instead of browsing eBay, I'd just shoot this guy an e-mail asking if he had this/that/or the other. He'd respond and I'd just pay him through PayPal.
It's through this guy that I'm getting my groups 4e books (four sets of the three books, with slipcase included . . . oh, and a card game called Munchkin my wife is interested in.)
So I am supporting a local gaming store . . . just not one local to me . .
That problem is affecting not just the hobby store, but all brick and morter book sellers. The online folks just have the numbers to sell books at a Huge discount, much much closer to the distributer's price then the Hobby store can.
It comes down to loyalty and community really, not prices.
Hobby stores have to realize that they are no longer in the business of selling books, minis, or cards, but in the business of selling a community. They are never going to be able to compete withthe distributors they themselves buy from, but I'm willing to spend extra money on books if I feel that doing so supports a community I'm a part of, or at least a business that appreciates me.
Gaming books are like coffee to me. Starbucks sells coffee, a beverage which is avaible in a million locations, often at much cheaper prices. In fact, the closest coffee shop to my home is a place called Cafe Brazil, where for 2 dollars i can get all i can drink of 20 different flavors. The reason I drive past their to go to Starbucks is because I feel welcome at Starbucks, where as the folks at Cafe Brazil make me feel Very unwanted. At the Starbucks I go to, I'm encouraged to spend hours in the store in thier comfortable chairs, talk with the people, read thier newspapers, and generally make an afternoon of enjoying myself. In the process, I buy far to much overpriced coffee, but it doesn't feel overpriced. I've gotten far more out of the expirence then just coffee.
I have not, in recent years, ever gotten that expirence from a game store. I get told to put down books i'm skimming through, and run out...
Wow man! I can't honestly blame you for not frequenting your LGS (can't really put the F on there as they don't sound very friendly).
There are two here in my little town. One is in the mall, and seems nice, but is mostly focused on board games. I don't frequent there often honestly.
The other is a game/comic shop and is excellent! The owner encourages people to come in and play. There are regular tournaments for Magic, WoW CCG, Yu-gi-Oh, Warmachine/Hordes, Warhammer, and Heroclix). As well as being used as a place for RPGs (one game on Tuesdays, one on Fridays, and one on Wednesdays, as well as a "Store" game on Mondays that is open to anybody who wants to play). He does charge a couple bucks for the various games (never for casual play). Sometimes this is an upfront campaign fee that is one time for the length of the campaign (for the war games) which generally last five or six weeks. Other times it's per play tournament fee (as is the case for Magic or WoW CCG). The store DnD game is 2 bucks, it gets you a soda and a snack, and is not unreasonable in my opinion.
Beyond this there are regular casual board games and card games going on in the store. The owner is fairly laid back. He and his wife have their limits on what is acceptable behavior, but it's not strict or unreasonable. (Keep the cussing to a minimum, no bullying or rude behavior etc.)
The store is successful, because it's such a warm welcoming place to go hang out and enjoy yourself. The owner and his wife (and the two guys that work there) are very friendly and are happy to special order any product you want (15% off if you order and prepay) that's available from their distributors.
I'm sure there are things he could do differently, but he's become successful enough to have been able to quit his job and take over running the place full time (before hand it was his wife and one of the two blokes that work there that would run it).
I frequent the place and will oft times buy products off his racks (though I know I could get a better deal online), because it's such a great place to play and hang out.
Does this mean I never buy anything off the internet? No, I do quite frequently. But I make damned sure that my FLGS gets a little bit of my income each month, cause I want them to last.
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I will ONLY buy games from my FLGS. They provide gamers a place to play, hang out, connect with each other. They are the hub of the community. If they disappear then where will our community meet new folks and make new friends?
Game stores are the back bone of this industry. If you have one near you then you should support them.
Honestly - how would you feel if they closed up shop?
If I can't kill imaginary critters in precisely the imaginary way I want to, the system is obviously crap! :PLOL. So will that be a system bought on-line or from a store? (Don't want to threadjack my own post! :)
Heh, I had completely not noticed my first reply had been chomped by the board monster. I buy online mostly. I have a local store that is nice, but money is tight.
Another poster here nailed it when he said local stores aren't selling books, they're selling community. My local store just doesn't really offer that to me. The only reason I'd buy from the local store now a days is to get a book the day it comes out, instead of having to wait.
As for where I'd go to meet other gamers? Online, completely. Besides personal friends, probably the last dozen new gamers I've met have been from the 'net here. Message boards are for more than crazy ranting (sometimes).
Cheers! :)
I will ONLY buy games from my FLGS. They provide gamers a place to play, hang out, connect with each other. They are the hub of the community. If they disappear then where will our community meet new folks and make new friends?
Game stores are the back bone of this industry. If you have one near you then you should support them.
Honestly - how would you feel if they closed up shop?
I never go to game stores, so it wouldn't affect me directly. Like David, I meet other players on-line. Sometimes I'll go to a big chain bookstore to look at a book before I buy it, I guess.
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When our town had a local game store, I made certain to patronize it, at least MOST of the time, even though I had to pay a bit more for the stuff there, unless they didn't carry the item in question, or if it was a single from a set (like a rare from a tradeable card game or some such). Why? Because they provided a free service to me, and I felt a need to help do my part to keep it open. By providing space to play the games, and other people to play the game with, the value of the goods I was buying would be less if that place didn't exist.
Unfortunately, apparently not enough people shared my viewpoint because it closed anyway. The nearest game store to me now is over an hour away, so there's no reason at all for me not to buy my stuff here or on Amazon or wherever.
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Honestly - how would you feel if they closed up shop?
I would have no feeling whatsoever. Most FLGS are crap imo (despite good people trying hard).
I also shop around for the cheapest price I can...and I coupon clip. I am ONE person, looking for a deal. The same deal I get is available to the FLGS owners as well. If the choice was $60 online and $66 at the FLGS, I might just choose the FLGS to "support" the community. That is to say, the community is worth about a 10% markup to me. Game store owners need to innovate if they wish to stay open. Welcome to capitalism.
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Honestly - how would you feel if they closed up shop?I would have no feeling whatsoever. Most FLGS are crap imo (despite good people trying hard).
I also shop around for the cheapest price I can...and I coupon clip. I am ONE person, looking for a deal. The same deal I get is available to the FLGS owners as well. If the choice was $60 online and $66 at the FLGS, I might just choose the FLGS to "support" the community. That is to say, the community is worth about a 10% markup to me. Game store owners need to innovate if they wish to stay open. Welcome to capitalism.
It's too bad you feel that way. Maybe FLGSs would not be crap if we actually spent our money there. That too is capitalism.
But you can choose to save a few dollars and support a faceless corporate entity if you want to. Heck, community is not that important - right? I mean why buy from local businesses when you can hand your money over to Walmart or Home Despot?
Local community? Who needs it when we have huge corporate interests looking out for us.
Honestly - how would you feel if they closed up shop?
I would not care one bit, as they provide no valuable service to me.
As for the OP:
1) I feel no guilt for ordering books online.
2) No, (F)(L)GS's are not justified in complaining about such things - if they can't match/beat price (which they probably can't), they need to sell service.
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Honestly - how would you feel if they closed up shop?I would not care one bit, as they provide no valuable service to me.
As for the OP:
1) I feel no guilt for ordering books online.2) No, (F)(L)GS's are not justified in complaining about such things - if they can't match/beat price (which they probably can't), they need to sell service.
Does you FLGS run game demos? Does it provide space to play? Does it participate in any organized play like the RPGA or a 40K league? Does it provide a bulletin board to allow the community to find local groups or sell old games?
If it does not do any of that then perhaps you should go in and tell them that the reason you are buying games from Amazon is that his or her store does should adopt a few of these services.
I started an RPGA gameday at my FLGS and it has run every month for the last three years. The shop provides tables and chairs and volunteers get the mods and GMs. The manager has thanked us for getting this running because people come to the gameday and spend money.
If you FLGS is crappy then ask yourself what you can do to uncrappify it.
It's too bad you feel that way. Maybe FLGSs would not be crap if we actually spent our money there. That too is capitalism.
But you can choose to save a few dollars and support a faceless corporate entity if you want to. Heck, community is not that important - right? I mean why buy from local businesses when you can hand your money over to Walmart or Home Despot?
Local community? Who needs it when we have huge corporate interests looking out for us.
And again we come back to the Faceless Corperations are bad for you argument, and that the homespun goodness of the Mom and Pop store is better for your soul.
This is kind of the basic premiss of the OP's question: Do you feel guilty about not supporting your local gaming community?
And my answer is still No, because that's not a vaid question. Gaming is not based solely upon the game shop anymore. Buying books from a LGS will not automatically support the gaming community. It rarely if ever does.
A community has to exist at a store for me to support it. Maybe your LGS has a vibrant friendly community that makes playing games in your local store fun. That does not exist in my city as far as I can tell. I have not foudn one at any store I have been to. The local stores near me are not going to suddenly get a better attitude because I purchase a book from them. (And I say stores because I live in a major metropolis.)
I might be able to go out and create a good gaming community in my area, through organizeation, negotiation, and general hard work. But that community does not have to be based upon a small retail shop owned by a small business man. Big book stores, coffee shops, schools, libraries, the community area of an apartment complex, somebodies house, all of these can provide the the space and basis for a gaming community. (My own group is based in my apartment.)
You do not need a local game shop to play D&D, and the owner's of local game shops need to to realize that people who play games have no moral obligation to give them their money. The LGS needs to privde a friendly space to play first. Then, they will get my money. Probably a lot more of it, in fact, because i will be encouraged to buy more from them by always being able to find someone to play with.
And please remember that the people who work for Home Depot and Walmart are your community. They live and work in your town, and are as much of your community as any Mom and Pop shop ever was.
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Sadly, after 9/11 occurred, lots of game stores had to close their doors, a lot of people just didn't want to play games in those serious years post-9/11. Concurrently, excellent online venues such as Amazon and PAIZO increasingly provided high quality means to quickly acquire great gaming materials at a fraction of the price that local game stores must charge to stay in business.
I feel for my local game stores and often purchase items there (at regular price) even though I could get the same cheaper elsewhere. Yet, in today's economy, I shouldn't feel guilty for ordering $90 per month from PAIZO or other online stores. Still, local game store owners are right to scream out for support - they need our support to stay in business. It would feel terrible if the three stores in my local 70 miles closed their doors, so they are right to be angry at times at the behaviors of gamers who enjoy hanging out there, but don't purchase items with their $$$.
One afterthought: If I feel too pressured by gamestore owners to purchase materials when I stop in to browse, or if they are angry with me vs. placing a post on ENworld as the OP says, then I think I might not want to visit their store. Its kind of like, they have every reason to be angry, but if they display their feelings - that would even hurt them more... So they're really caught between the Scylla and Charibdes.
... just my 2 cents...
I started an RPGA gameday at my FLGS and it has run every month for the last three years. The shop provides tables and chairs and volunteers get the mods and GMs. The manager has thanked us for getting this running because people come to the gameday and spend money.If you FLGS is crappy then ask yourself what you can do to uncrappify it.
I want to applaud you for jump starting your local gaming scene. We need more people to do that.
But, why should the customers of a store be responcible for doing this? Why isn't the manager running the game store doing the organization, instead of just providing the space? That is my question.
I respect you for getting things going, but store owners do not have the right to complain and guilt trip people buying books online if they aren't organizing and running a group like yours.
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Does you FLGS run game demos?
No.
Does it provide space to play?
No.
Does it participate in any organized play like the RPGA or a 40K league?
No.
Does it provide a bulletin board to allow the community to find local groups or sell old games?
No.
If it does not do any of that then perhaps you should go in and tell them that the reason you are buying games from Amazon is that his or her store does should adopt a few of these services.
It's not my responsibility to run their business. Even if they offered the above services I'd buy from Amazon. I don't need those services. I don't need a demo, space to play, organized play, or a bulletin board.
Here's an idea: How about I DON'T support something that doesn't provide anything of benefit to me. I already pay enough in taxes, haha.
I started an RPGA gameday at my FLGS and it has run every month for the last three years. The shop provides tables and chairs and volunteers get the mods and GMs. The manager has thanked us for getting this running because people come to the gameday and spend money.
Good for you. I would hope, however, that you spend no more in the store than that particular service is worth.
If you FLGS is crappy then ask yourself what you can do to uncrappify it.
Not my business. Not my responsibility. Sometimes crappy things should just go away. If I wanted to put forth that kind of effort to improve a business, I'd open my own. Since I'm not interested in that either, hello Amazon. And god bless corporate America for providing me with quality merchandise at a reasonable price. And before you bash, Paizo Publishing is one of the shining stars of corporate America and what it can do.
When I bought traveller recently, I pre-ordered it from Amazon at 1/2 the price. Mongoose hasn't shipped their amazon fulfullment yet. They first shipped it off to those that bought it direct from mongoose and LGSs. I ended up buying it from an LGS about a week ago because I just didn't want to wait anymore.
Just saying.
Its not a bad business idea publishers could use to to encourage people to buy from LGSs.
And before you bash, Paizo Publishing is one of the shining stars of corporate America and what it can do.
Here's another question:
--> Does anyone feel guilty about buying a product from Amazon.com instead of buying it from Paizo.com?I have to admit I felt a little twinge when I bought "Shackled City" from Amazon.ca instead of this web site. In the end, my parsimony won out though.
And before you bash, Paizo Publishing is one of the shining stars of corporate America and what it can do.Here's another question:
--> Does anyone feel guilty about buying a product from Amazon.com instead of buying it from Paizo.com?I have to admit I felt a little twinge when I bought "Shackled City" from Amazon.ca instead of this web site. In the end, my parsimony won out though.
Why would you feel guilty? Paizo is still getting paid. That is like saying, would you feel guilty of buying a Paizo product in a store than ordering it from them directly? No, either way you are still supporting Paizo. In fact, purchasing it from a different entity would make it more willing for them to carry more Paizo products and thus Paizo gets more exposure than if it was only available from their own site.
Here's another question:
--> Does anyone feel guilty about buying a product from Amazon.com instead of buying it from Paizo.com?I have to admit I felt a little twinge when I bought "Shackled City" from Amazon.ca instead of this web site. In the end, my parsimony won out though.
Not really. Paizo as a company earns my dollars by making products I want to buy, not by selling stuff in an online store. Other sites give the same service (ENWorld has a store, and Amazon is king of all) so I don't feel any need to select one over the other.
I WILL buy a Paizo product directly from Paizo (and did, for all the years when they published Dragon and Dungeon ... I even bought the SC hardcover from them) but I really wouldn't use the store here unless either A) they could offer a better deal than I could find somewhere else or B) they were selling their own stuff.
Cheers! :)
I don't really buy books online.
Well, i do sometimes, but only when it's something i can't manage to find in a store or downloads.
Books (and RPG accessories) are expensive and before buying one, i want to check the quality and content to make sure it's worth my money.
If i am interested, i buy.
In the case of D&D4, well, it'd better be really good for me to spend 1 silver on these books :(
Furthermore, along the years i tended to develop fidelity to a specific game store, where i bought all my stuff.
I talk with the staff or customers, which gives me some insight.
Currently in the US, that's The Compleat Strategist, in New York City.
Another reason why i don't like to buy online :
I can't stand the delivery system here in US. But that's another topic ;)
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But, why should the customers of a store be responcible for doing this? Why isn't the manager running the game store doing the organization, instead of just providing the space? That is my question.
and
Not my business. Not my responsibility. Sometimes crappy things should just go away. If I wanted to put forth that kind of effort to improve a business, I'd open my own. Since I'm not interested in that either, hello Amazon. And god bless corporate America for providing me with quality merchandise at a reasonable price. And before you bash, Paizo Publishing is one of the shining stars of corporate America and what it can do.
Why should "they" do everything for me? Community is built by people and not by store owners.
Gaming is by its very nature a communal past time. There are times when we need to simply step up and help the community. Why leave it to the harried store owners to do all on their own? Why not pitch it.
Stedd - if you want to live an insular life where the world is just there to serve you then enjoy yourself. If you don't want to give back to the industry by helping to make it grow beyond your own purchases then that is your right.
But this industry is shrinking and the FLGS is still the main agent of growth. By not supporting them we are saying that we want the hobby to shrink. WotC is trying to build a virtual community where people can actually play together but most folks here have blasted them for it. So what will it be - are we going to support the growth of the virtual community or the one in our own neighborhoods? Both? Neither?
The point is this - where you spend your money right now will effect the direction this hobby takes in the future.
At least for me and my friends, I think virtual is the way to go. All the players I've recruited the past few years have been online (as I mentioned earlier). Many have left our group since then when jobs/natural disasters forced them to relocate, but many remain connected to my group via our shared mailing list. I'm sure at least a few former members would enjoy being able to log on and play a weekly game with the rest of us.
Heck, some of my current face to face group is interested in starting another weekly game online as well. I think the idea is that instead of paying for EQ or whatever, they can pay for DDI and focus their energies on playing one game. I'm not convinced that idea has as much merit as the first one, but I'm willing to try it out if they are.
Cheers! :)
PS: I've personally never played in a gaming store within memory. The first ones I went to did have space they let people play on, but only if you rented it out from them (I was a kid with no income at the time, so I never even asked what they charged). The only one in my area now pretty regularly has guys playing 40K or some other similar game, but I don't know if I've ever caught anyone hosting a RPG there. No bulletin board of any kind really (the first store I used to go to at least had one of those.)
crosswiredmind, no need to get agressive towards other posters merely because they have no interest in putting forth the same amount of effort as you.
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crosswiredmind, no need to get agressive towards other posters merely because they have no interest in putting forth the same amount of effort as you.
I know - I get very worked up about this.
But this is very important. Our hobby is shrinking. Our behavior and buying patterns are one factor that can either help or hurt this hobby.
Saving money will help us as individuals but it may end up harming the industry in the long term.
crosswiredmind, no need to get agressive towards other posters merely because they have no interest in putting forth the same amount of effort as you.
I know - I get very worked up about this.
But this is very important. Our hobby is shrinking. Our behavior and buying patterns are one factor that can either help or hurt this hobby.
Saving money will help us as individuals but it may end up harming the industry in the long term.
Well in my experience college dorms have done a heck of alot more to recruit new players than any gaming store. Stores are just usually where tournaments are held and people pick up some material. But as more traditional book stores sell more gaming products and the internet is getting easier to purchase products (even for poor college students), there is less of a need for these speciality businesses. I mean if these gaming stores were so necessary we would expect to find practically 0% of gaming occuring where there are not stores, and that I doubt is the case.
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That is what we call a free market society.
I like to pop into Barnes and Noble once in a while and look around and sometimes find things I would never find any other way. On the other hand I buy most of my books and music from Amazon. I have just moved up to Blu-Ray and buy most of my DVDs there now too (although I may will buy some DVDs at Wal-Mart as I have for years.
My local Comic and Gaming store is a mess. I cannot find anything there. I used to buy minis there but I can get them so much cheaper from an online store and now buy them that way and have since the first two or three sets came out from WotC.
I do buy all my Pathfinder and Gamemastery stuff directly from Paizo for two reasons: 1. I subscribe and do not have to worry about inadvertantly missing something I want. 2. I want to support Paizo in the best way possible.
I would have probably bought my D&D books directly from WotC but they if they have or had an online store it was not easily identifiable.
I did use to frequent the WotC stores in the area when they were open.
Our whole system is based on the market and I hope it always is...
I dunno Shem. A money-less system like in Star Trek where whatever we want can be created out of nothing seems pretty groovy, market forces or not.
I sure wouldn't mind being able to replicate me some 4E PHBs about now, frex. Also, maybe a burger and some coke. But that's probably just because I forgot to bring lunch with me to work today. :P
Cheers! :)
Well in my experience college dorms have done a heck of alot more to recruit new players than any gaming store. Stores are just usually where tournaments are held and people pick up some material. But as more traditional book stores sell more gaming products and the internet is getting easier to purchase products (even for poor college students), there is less of a need for these speciality businesses. I mean if these gaming stores were so necessary we would expect to find practically 0% of gaming occuring where there are not stores, and that I doubt is the case.
Traditional bookstores sell gaming material... it's true. Some even have a remotely decent selection. But the selection at a brick and mortar book store (like, say, Barnes and Noble) typically pales in comparison to the selection available at a GOOD gaming store.
I've grown up in gaming stores... and not all of them are good (much less friendly). That said, the good ones desperately need support. Not because they're poorly managed or don't do enough, but because too many people are ready to write off the community that a good gaming store offers. For the most part people don't start a gaming store because they're good at business... they do it because they love gaming and the community. Frequently they are sacrificing a lot to have the gaming store, and in fact frequently they are working another job to support themselves.
I always try to support my local gaming store. The guy who runs the one closest is a gamer, he used to frequent my husband's store before it closed a while back. He isn't a good businessman. He tries, and I give him credit for the effort, but he struggles with it, you can tell. I also struggle with it, because I know what makes a good gaming store, and of the five in reasonable distance, not one qualifies as all-around great.
I know amazon is cheaper, and I won't claim to never shop there, especially when money is tight. But I try to make sure the FLGS (at least two of them) gets some love too.
In the internet age, I have no use for a local game store to buy D&D products.
If a store owner wants to get me in there, they'd better do something else then just sell books.
Cost at amazon: $60
Cost at FLGS: $105 + tax (around $6.50 here)
There's no way I'd pay 75%+ more to get it from a local vendor.
WotC *is* doing something for the FLGS by having the D&D gameday on June 7 - it most-likely prevents amazon (and other on-line-buying vendor) customers from getting their books in time to participate. (So if you want to play on Saturday, you'd better buy your books from the local game store.)
Why should "they" do everything for me? Community is built by people and not by store owners.
Gaming is by its very nature a communal past time. There are times when we need to simply step up and help the community. Why leave it to the harried store owners to do all on their own? Why not pitch it.
I don't feel that the store owners should be responcible for all the organization in the gaming community. You are right crosswiredmind, that if someone wants a community sometimes they have to step up and make one. Because there wasn't a local game store which provided that, or even space to play, I did just that.
Six years ago I posted an adverts across my college campus for a new gaming group, and ever since then I have had a weekly game and friends that comes to my apartment.
I've tried to find a good gaming store since then, becaus eI love meeting new gamers, and every time I have been dissapointed, and yet at the same time the owners of the game stores get angry that people won't pay the higher prices without better service.
But this industry is shrinking and the FLGS is still the main agent of growth. By not supporting them we are saying that we want the hobby to shrink. WotC is trying to build a virtual community where people can actually play together but most folks here have blasted them for it. So what will it be - are we going to support the growth of the virtual community or the one in our own neighborhoods? Both? Neither?
The point is this - where you spend your money right now will effect the direction this hobby takes in the future.
I'm not sure if the gaming industry is shrinking or growing. that's another topic for another thread (One I'd be intrested to see actually.), but I do know that the book store business is changing drastically.
All book stores, not just gaming stores, are facing the pressure of Amazon and the other online sellers. What the smart stores have done is realize that they have to change their business model to reflect the changing times. Borders and Barnes and Noble have coffee shops in them, live entertainment, and book signings. they do big release parties for new books. Gaming stores have to do the same kind of thing to survive.
They even have a built in community aspect to the thing they are selling. Card, mini, and D&D tornoment and organized play make for wonderful ways to bring customers into the store. I have always been happy to pay the five dollar entry fee for such a event, because that five bucks goes to buy prize support for the torney. That is a great purchase in my mind.
If a gaming store wants me, or anyone else really, to pay the higher prices which they are forced to charge on gaming books, then they have to provide me a reason to do so. I don't begrudge them the higher prices, they have to charge that to keep their brick and mortar store open.
What makes me livid is when a game store owner rants and raves about people buying books at a lower price, when the store owner is giving them no reason at all to pay the higher price.
I want that to be a vibrant, growing community for gamers. WotC is trying to provide that online thru the DDI, and I applaud them for it. They are also trying to encourage the local gaming scene, by sending out the free D&D kits.
I am going to be going a new local store for D&D day, and if the store is fun and the people nice, I'll buy something to take home with me. (Probably a second copy of the player's handbook.) But if the people there are rude, and act like D&D day is a huge imposition? Then they won't be getting my cash.
crosswiredmind, no need to get agressive towards other posters merely because they have no interest in putting forth the same amount of effort as you.
I know - I get very worked up about this.
But this is very important. Our hobby is shrinking. Our behavior and buying patterns are one factor that can either help or hurt this hobby.
Saving money will help us as individuals but it may end up harming the industry in the long term.
I agree, this is important, and I too get worked up over this. If I've offended you crosswiredmind, please know that I didn't mean to. You are in no way the subject of my ire.
Hopefully, a game store owner will read these forums and see just how I and others feel about this. They will buy some gaming tables, open up a clear space, and give folks a place to play for free. It'll be the only way the local gaming store industry survives.
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Hey Teiran - I am not mad at you at all. I should make it clear that I am passionate about this subject and it sounds like you have a good perspective on it. I just get a bit worked up when people express the notion that everything needs to be done for them rather than taking action and stepping up to help.
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In the internet age, I have no use for a local game store to buy D&D products.
Of course you don't but do you play there? If you do then you are taking advantage of the money the store spends on overhead while contributing nothing to its bottom line.
That is my point. To be blunt - if you hang out and play at an FLGS but you buy your games online your leaching.
That is my point. To be blunt - if you hang out and play at an FLGS but you buy your games online your leaching.
Well, sure. But that's like going to the buggy whip factory to shoot craps. ;-)