Please remove Endurance and Run as Feats.


Skills & Feats

Liberty's Edge

Some feats work better as skills, e.g., run and endurance.

Run should be added to an Athletic Feat (along with Climb, Jump, and Swim).

Endurance should be a feat all to itself (incorporating Concentration). (Yes, I know, Concentration currently resides under Spellcraft.)

Sovereign Court

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Saurstalk wrote:
Run should be added to an Athletic Feat (along with Climb, Jump, and Swim).

For every 5 ranks of Run (or Athletics) add 10' to your running speed.

Saurstalk wrote:
Endurance should ...

... be added to any non-Fortitude Con checks, like resisting the effects of alcohol, holding your breath, or avoiding fatigue.


How would I run without losing my dex bonus? Roll a skill check?

Grand Lodge

Mosaic wrote:
Saurstalk wrote:
Run should be added to an Athletic Feat (along with Climb, Jump, and Swim).

For every 5 ranks of Run (or Athletics) add 10' to your running speed.

Saurstalk wrote:
Endurance should ...
... be added to any non-Fortitude Con checks, like resisting the effects of alcohol, holding your breath, or avoiding fatigue.

I love the idea (I love me my halflings), however, I think 10 feet may be a bit much. Without playtesting, just looking at numbers even a 20th lv halfling with maxed Athletics (20 ranks) can move 60 feet in a round, thats 10 feet a second. That seems a little fast even for me, and may take away from those classes who gain fast movement as a class ability (though now looking at the barbarian, there's no mention of the fast movement ability even though its listed as a class skill, based on that, I would assume it works the same?). Would that stack with the Athletics skill? So another example, a halfling monk at 20th level (assuming the PF monk's fast movement works the same as 3.5, haven't seen anything on this mind you...) moves 120 feet in 6 seconds. O_o Maybe it only adds 5 feet of movement per 5 ranks? That seems a little more toned down to me. But again, I love the idea, not bursting your bubble.

Liberty's Edge

I think both Endurance and Run contribute to the overall game as feats. I like them. I am playing a character on a Play-by-Post that has Endurance as a feat.

Endurance provides a bonus on certain checks. That is a function that isn't well represented by a skill check. Having an Endurance skill could pretty much make a Fortitude saving throw unnecessary, or vice versa.

There may be something to 'unifying the mechanic' and allowing Fortitude Saves in place of Con Checks, but then allowing Endurance to add to certain types of Fortitude Saves. This is something I would support.

I don't like Run as a skill, either, even it provides a bonus to speed (which is interesting). Speed could almost be a 7th stat, governing things like Initiative modifier and base land speed, etc. However, D&D has six attributes, and I don't think we want to go anywhere near there.


DeadDMWalking wrote:


There may be something to 'unifying the mechanic' and allowing Fortitude Saves in place of Con Checks, but then allowing Endurance to add to certain types of Fortitude Saves. This is something I would support.

I'm not sure I would support unifying that kind of mechanic. The questions are: should the things that the Con check is for be directly affected by the character's level and should fighter classes and anyone else with a strong Fort save be better at it than anyone else?

If the answer to those questions is No, then it shouldn't be a Fort save.

Now, in both questions, the level and class tend to have indirect effects. Higher level characters are more likely to have buffed Con in some way and have other items that might affect or negate the reason to make the Con check. And fighter-types are more likely to have invested well in Con in the first place.

I think I prefer the indirect effect in this case.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Diodric wrote:
I love the idea (I love me my halflings), however, I think 10 feet may be a bit much. Without playtesting, just looking at numbers even a 20th lv halfling with maxed Athletics (20 ranks) can move 60 feet in a round, thats 10 feet a second. That seems a little fast even for me ...

I started with 5' per 5 ranks to base speed but decided that would be too fast. Remember, running is 4x base speed so that would have actually increased running speed by 20'! Besides, the skill is called "Run," not "Faster Base Speed," so I thought I'd try adding it only when running. In that case, someone with a base speed of 20' could run 90' in a round instead of 80'; nice but not hugely imbalancing. Top running speed, assuming base speed 30' and max'ed out Run (20 ranks, 4 +10's) would be 160' rather than 120'.

Actually, the current Run feat makes running speed x5 instead of x4, so right away a character with a base speed of 30' could run at 150'. A Run skill, or rolling Run into Acrobatics, would slow it down a little and make it more incremental. Me? I like that.


First thing that comes to mind being a problem is that Endurance is used as a pre-req for certain prestige classes.

In my opinion, while I understand the desire to make every feat seem useful, it's actually nice when designing or re-working a class or variant class feature or building an NPC or monster to toss them a feat that adds a bit, but not really too much. If every feat is roughly equally useful, you can accidentally end up ramping up the power too much in the end. "Weak" feats work well as it is as bonus feats on classes, pre-reqs, and NPCs.

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