Weapon Groups


New Rules Suggestions

Scarab Sages

Ever since Unearthed Arcana came out for 3.x, I've been using weapon groups with success. Personally, I'm very fond of the way they work and would like to see them for Pathfinder.

However, there is a change that I'm using that works fairly well that uses BAB to determine starting weapon groups. Those with a poor BAB begin play with a single weapon group and basic weapons. If you have an average BAB, you start with basic weapons and two other weapon groups. Those with a good BAB, except fighters gain three weapon groups and basic weapons. Finally, fighters gain basic weapons and four weapon groups plus one more at every even fighter level. If you multiclass, you gain additional weapon groups only if the new class has additional weapon proficiencies.

Basic weapons are defined as club, dart, dagger, quarterstaff, and sling.

Most other weapon groups are taken straight out of the fighter description. There is also a weapon group called Druid weapons consisting of: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortpear, sling, and spear. The starknife and war razor are added to light blades, the earthbreaker is added to hammers, the klar is added to blades, the shoanti bola are an exotic throwing weapon, the bladed scarf is an exotic flail and the sawtooth saber is an exotic light blade. Exotic weapons remain exotic and require a +1 BAB to gain proficiency. In order to gain proficiency with a group's exotic weapons requires either a weapon group or a feat. Improved Unarmed Strike can be purchased with a weapon group slot if you meet the usual prerequisite as usual.

Under this system, dwarves gain axe and hammer proficiency and elves gain bow proficiency plus single proficiency in the longsword and rapier. All races that treat [insert race here] weapons as martial weapons simply add those weapons to the standard group.

So, what do y'all think?

Liberty's Edge

I like very much the flavour brought by using weapon groups. I'm aware that it's a bit more complex than the simple and martial groups with additions of racial weapon proficiencies and specific weapons for some classes.
I also like your idea of tying the number of starting weapon groups to the BAB. It makes sense to have more effective combatants proficient in a wider range of weapons.

I don't think I understand how you organize the system of weapon groups while maintaining class-specific weapon proficiencies.


Malkari Durant wrote:

However, there is a change that I'm using that works fairly well that uses BAB to determine starting weapon groups. Those with a poor BAB begin play with a single weapon group and basic weapons. If you have an average BAB, you start with basic weapons and two other weapon groups. Those with a good BAB, except fighters gain three weapon groups and basic weapons. Finally, fighters gain basic weapons and four weapon groups plus one more at every even fighter level. If you multiclass, you gain additional weapon groups only if the new class has additional weapon proficiencies.

Basic weapons are defined as club, dart, dagger, quarterstaff, and sling.

Under this system, dwarves gain axe and hammer proficiency and elves gain bow proficiency plus single proficiency in the longsword and rapier. All races that treat [insert race here] weapons as martial weapons simply add those weapons to the standard group.

So, what do y'all think?

Not bad. I'm not sure they'll change the current simple/martial/exotic set-up though; there is nothing wrong with the way things are, and they want to maintain compatability, although your system does seem to add a little more variation between classes. Either system would be fine by me, which I hope you take as a compliment. I do have some critique's with Pathfinder's weapon system, though.

1. I personally believe the morningstar should be apart of the hammer group, not the flail group. Basically, the morningstar is a sharp-spiked ball on a stick, just like a mace (whose spikes are dull, not sharp). It is swung like a mace or club, not twirled around like a flail or spiked chain. Thus, morningstars have more in common with hammers than flails. If it makes people feel better, maybe you could rename the flail group the chain group, keeping in mind what really connects these weapons together.

2. For simplicity's sake, and comvenience, please add the newer PF weapons to the weapon group lists (i.e. war razor, starknife, etc.). It'll just make things easier.

3. Please, oh, please show some love to the lowly little gnome. The gnome is the only PC race that has weapon familiarity but doesn't have any bonus proficiencies. I know gnomes have been demonized recently (4E doesn't have them as a PC race), but they can be fun to play. How about skill with short swords and crossbows, keeping in line with their mechanical aptitude. And while we're at it, give halflings another bonus weapon, like dagger, and replace the dwarves' skill with the heavy pick with the throwing axe; it just makes more sense.

4. The human bonus weapon proficiency should be kept as any weapon, not any martial weapon. Any human whose class grants proficiency with all martial weapons (which is more than a third of all the available classes) makes this bonus ability completely worthless. If humans are really the "flexible" race, don't be shy and let them actually be flexible.

There. Those are some of my ideas and opinions. Feel free to disect them at your liesure, as we all do.

DogBone

Scarab Sages

Just for a little clarification, here's a little better breakdown of my different weapon groups:

Axes: battle ax, great ax, hand ax, heavy pick, light pick, throwing ax
Basic: dagger, club, dart, sling, quarterstaff, and dart
Blades: Bastard Sword (2-handed), falchion, Greatsword, klar, longsword, scimitar, scythe
Bows: long bow (standard or composite), short bow (long bow or composite)
Close: gauntlet, shield, punching dagger, sap, spiked (shield, gauntlet, or armor), ogre hook
Crossbows: light crossbow, heavy crossbow
Druid: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortpear, sling, spear
Exotic Axes: dwarven axe, orc double axe, dwarven Urgrosh (with spear group)
Exotic Blades: Bastard Sword (1-handed), Two-Bladed Sword
Exotic Light Blades: kama, Sawtooth saber
Exotic Crossbows: repeating crossbow (light or heavy), hand crossbow, double crossbow
Exotic Chains: bladed scarf, dire flail, Nunchaku, whip, spiked chain
Exotic Hammer: gnome hooked hammer
Exotic Monk: kama, Nunchaku, sai, Siangham, shuriken
Exotic Thrown Weapons: bolas, net, Shoanti Bola, shuriken
Firearms: All available firearms
Chains: flail, heavy flail
Hammers: club, earth breaker, light hammer, mace, Morningstar, greatclub, heavy mace, Warhammer
Light Blades: dagger, kukri, rapier, sickle, short sword, starknife, war razor
Pole Arms: glaive, guisarme, halberd, Ranseur, quarterstaff
Rogue: hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, shortsword, starknife, war razor
Spears: dwarven Urgrosh (with spear proficiency), javelin, lance, Longspear, Shortspear, spear, and trident

Here are the starting racial proficiencies:
Dwarf: hammers and axes
Elf: bows plus Longsword & rapier single weapon proficiency
Gnome: light blades or crossbows
Halfling: may select exotic thrown weapons as a standard weapon group
Half Orc: heavy blades or axes
Human: any weapon group

To learn any exotic group, you must have a +1 BAB bonus and if it has a standard group, such as axes, you must learn the standard group first.

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