I just realized that my first post on this went into the Alpha 1 Skill thread. I guess I should post something about it here to to keep current. :)
I wanted to throw my cowl in the ring to bring back Concentration as a separate skill for the PRPG. I've been trying to come up with a powerful, moving speech that would rally folks to this cause, but I haven't had enough caffeine yet for that to work well at all... ;P
Instead, my best argument to keep Concentration separate must come by way of example (something used in my games with much success): in Mongoose Publishing’s Quintessential Monk. They have a chapter on new uses for skills, and Concentration is used to introduce a great mechanic for ‘body kungs’ (think of all the real world chi-based things the Shaolin monks have been documented performing and you’ve got what I’m talking about).
(As an aside, and expanding on this thought, you could even argue for Rogues having access to Concentration - because opening a lock or disabling a trap counts as an action requiring their full attention, especially if combat is going on around them).
Folding Concentration into Spellcraft effectively cuts off access to these other potentially great uses for the skill, because those classes don’t need all the other things that Spellcraft does (and they shouldn’t have them).
I do agree with DracoDruid’s observation in the Alpha 1 Skill thread that Concentration makes more sense if it is tied to Wisdom rather than Constitution. If I had to guess why Constitution was used, I would say it was in order to use a stat that was non-primary for both arcane and divine spellcasters, and therefore favored neither.
With the revised Monk still on the horizon for Alpha 3, I hope Jason and the design team might consider breaking this skill back out for it. If not, maybe they can create their own mechanic for the Monk to do these kind of things (perhaps an ability called ‘Discipline’ or 'Chi Kung', using the mechanics for the Druid’s Wild Empathy check as a model for a ‘class-exclusive’ extraordinary ability). With Nick Logue's knowledge of the martial arts, perhaps he might have some ideas for this as well.
Sorry for the ramble folks. I hope there is a good idea in there somewhere worth considering... :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
From reading the other threads on the topic, it looks as if most people are already houseruling Concentration back out of Spellcraft, and adding some of the Autohypnosis features to it. I know that I have done so (I also use the d20 Modern Concentration description for additional (non-spellcasting) uses as well).
when I first saw they had combined concentration with spellcraft, my first thought was "Great! My wizard is going to love this!" Then, about 2 sips of coffee later, I thought, "Uh... how is that backwards compatible with Bot9S?" I had a really neat character that used the Diamond Mind stuff to great effect... but many of those maneuvers required a concentration check.
I don't know what other 3.5 classes/feats/etc. use concentration for things other than defensive spell casting... but it strikes me that any such uses are a reason to keep concentration separate so the backwards compatibility remains.
|
I would personally keep spellcraft and concentration combined but provide characters who have concentration checks for non-spellcasting purposes a character level check + Con modifier. You can still call it a concentration check if you like.
Effectively spellcasters would (as long as they maxed out their ranks) have a higher concentration check with regards to spells than others.
|
What do y'all think about my idea at the end of this post:
Spellcraft (p. 47)
Thanks for the feedback!
Grace and Peace,
Jeff
Maybe, instead of dropping Concentration, Spellcraft should be dropped. Just make all of the stuff about identifying and learning spells a function of Knowledge (arcana), since that and Spellcraft are both magic-related, Intelligence-based skills anyway.
That's what I did. I've seen people make a case for rolling Spellcraft (arcane) into Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft (divine) into Knowledge (religion), etc. I could see that working as well, but for my taste it seems a bit clunky (personal preference only), and it's also out of line with the ELH assumption (epic spells) that all spellcraft is, at some fundamental level, the same.
when I first saw they had combined concentration with spellcraft, my first thought was "Great! My wizard is going to love this!" Then, about 2 sips of coffee later, I thought, "Uh... how is that backwards compatible with Bot9S?" I had a really neat character that used the Diamond Mind stuff to great effect... but many of those maneuvers required a concentration check.
I don't know what other 3.5 classes/feats/etc. use concentration for things other than defensive spell casting... but it strikes me that any such uses are a reason to keep concentration separate so the backwards compatibility remains.
I hadn't thought about the Bo9S side of the coin here. That does cause some serious problems when Concentration is dropped.
Maybe, instead of dropping Concentration, Spellcraft should be dropped. Just make all of the stuff about identifying and learning spells a function of Knowledge (arcana), since that and Spellcraft are both magic-related, Intelligence-based skills anyway.
That sounds like a good fix to me. Spellcasters still have to rely upon a Con based skill; other classes that use concentration still can; and the distinction between whether something is knowledge (arcana) or spellcraft no longer matters. I like it.
Bo9S? Isn't that kinda of a moot consideration since it is not OGC. To use it for the basis of an arguement for a core book which is only based around OGC, can only use OGC, is just a bit silly don't you think?
Aside from that, I believe combining Autohypnosis and Concentration into Concentration, and Spellcraft with Knowledge (arcana) both have their merits.
Bo9S? Isn't that kinda of a moot consideration since it is not OGC. To use it for the basis of an arguement for a core book which is only based around OGC, can only use OGC, is just a bit silly don't you think?
You're absolutely right that Bo9S isn't OGC, but I disagree that for a player to consider it is at all silly. Here's my logic: a lot of the impetus for sticking with Paizo is that people can keep using all their 3.5e stuff. If Paizo goes out of their way to make that stuff incompatible with the new rules, they stand to lose a lot of customers. That's just bad business. If they can rig things so that all the 3.5 stuff is useable (without being specifically called out as being included, of course) then they expand their potential customer base. As it is, it seems like they'd be assured of keeping at least Doug and Meepo, with a minimum of fuss.
Bo9S? Isn't that kinda of a moot consideration since it is not OGC. To use it for the basis of an arguement for a core book which is only based around OGC, can only use OGC, is just a bit silly don't you think?
Aside from that, I believe combining Autohypnosis and Concentration into Concentration, and Spellcraft with Knowledge (arcana) both have their merits.
What Kirth said.
Also... one of the design goals is "backwards compatibility" with 3.5... and to minimize the obsolescence of the various 3.5 books published (OGL or not).
Thus, a design choice that doesn't work with other 3.5 (particularly Wizard's 3.5) material isn't advancing the purpose behind the Pathfinder changes... and so that should be a very valid criticism.
|
I like Concentration as its own skill. I like it Concentration based to avoid favoring any casting class over another. I favor including new uses for the skills (including martial arts, and most especially control wild shape).
So, no rousing speech is necessary. I'm on your side. I'm actually in the process of painting my face and chest blue to more adequately intimidate all those who will fight against the Concentration as its own skill.
|
|
Also... one of the design goals is "backwards compatibility" with 3.5... and to minimize the obsolescence of the various 3.5 books published (OGL or not).
Thus, a design choice that doesn't work with other 3.5 (particularly Wizard's 3.5) material isn't advancing the purpose behind the Pathfinder changes... and so that should be a very valid criticism.
I strongly disagree with you here, while I agree backwards compatibility should remain a priority, using wizards splat books as a reference is not good for the design, especially books like tomb of battle.
If you look at the design of the last 2 years releases from wizards (pretty much from Complete Mage near the end of 2006) those books presented very wild and game changing elements that where not in sink with most published adventures or campaign worlds. IMHO these books where Wizards using the public to beta some of the design ideas of 4e. They seriously break the core rules (making fighters almost obsolete) while trying to shoehorn in some of the better design elements of 4e into 3.5.
I personally do not allow anything from Tomb of Battle or Tomb of Magic into my realms games but I do cherry pick things from the complete mage and complete champion (namely the reserve feats and class options). pre-generated adventure modules (which is Paizo's main seller) become seriously broken when you start introducing stuff from the Tomb books. It may work for your own adventures because you can design it into them.
At the end of the day the book of nine swords is not a valid comparison for reworking the PHB, DMG, or MM, while certain aspects can be lifted from them to improve on the core classes using them for arguing backwards compatibility is wrong since they are themselves not easily backwards compatible.
|
|
It may not be fair to say 'this book has this REALLY WIERD function, and the new rules should support it', but it is not unfair to say 'other parties have expanded the use of this skill in other ways, and a major change to this skill has the result of making that unworkable'.
Whether we're talking about 3rd party Martial Arts books that use Concentration or we're talking about Tome of Battle, Concentration is an 'expandable' skill, which is a good thing. For example, expanding it to include 'Control Shapechange' makes sense when it is called Concentration, but not when it is called 'Spellcraft'.
I hadn't thought about the Bo9S side of the coin here. That does cause some serious problems when Concentration is dropped.
Maybe, instead of dropping Concentration, Spellcraft should be dropped. Just make all of the stuff about identifying and learning spells a function of Knowledge (arcana), since that and Spellcraft are both magic-related, Intelligence-based skills anyway.
This seems like a workable solution to me. Though if Concentration was its own skill, I'd like to see its function expanded a little.
(Tangent)Am I the only person that thinks Wisdom is a better Ability for Concentration than Constitution? I've always seen it as more of a mental exercise than of physical one--kind of like meditation. (/Tanget)
(Tangent)Am I the only person that thinks Wisdom is a better Ability for Concentration than Constitution? I've always seen it as more of a mental exercise than of physical one--kind of like meditation. (/Tanget)
In terms of simulationism, I agree. Mechanically... I misremember who now -- my mind isn't what it used to be -- but someone recently presented an excellent argument in favor of Con. Specifically, Con is a "neutral" stat for all classes, whereas using Wis rigs the usefulness of Concentration in favor of the cleric. If the OP of that argument is here, please raise a hand. Your analysis was cogent, to the point, and unassailably logical.
I strongly disagree with you here, while I agree backwards compatibility should remain a priority, using wizards splat books as a reference is not good for the design, especially books like tomb of battle.Also... one of the design goals is "backwards compatibility" with 3.5... and to minimize the obsolescence of the various 3.5 books published (OGL or not).
Thus, a design choice that doesn't work with other 3.5 (particularly Wizard's 3.5) material isn't advancing the purpose behind the Pathfinder changes... and so that should be a very valid criticism.
Yet, one of the design guidelines for this project is compatibility with these books.
Compatibility: Of all the goals I set out with when designing this game, compatibility ranked near the top. I wanted to make sure that any rules we changed were adaptable to the extensive body of work that exists for the 3.5 rules set.
I'm sorry that you don't like Bot9S... one of the DMs I play with bans it as well. But if by bumping up the power of the core classes (which is what we're seeing happen, btw), those classes are more on par with the abilities of Bot9S classes or Complete Mage or what ever... then the goal of compatibility is being met.
Simply leaving Concentration as a skill in the game, and moving the practical side of spell casting into Knowledge (Arcana)... you have made things no more difficult for most players/monsters or classes. Yet, it's also compatible with Bot9S for those who do use that material.
Taking concentration out of the game requires those using Bot9S to redo some of the skill design (and re-evaluate concentration for casters, or just for Bot9S characters). This isn't particularly compatible.
At the end of the day the book of nine swords is not a valid comparison for reworking the PHB, DMG, or MM, while certain aspects can be lifted from them to improve on the core classes using them for arguing backwards compatibility is wrong since they are themselves not easily backwards compatible.
I think something we've seen from the first supplement and new class is that there was a move towards making classes more powerful. With each book, the classes seem a bit more enticing, with more options and sometimes more powerful looking options (such as Bot9S... which I've had characters from that book outdone by Druids and characters from the Complete Warrior). Thus, the problem of why don't people play a Wizard 1-20? Because the other options in more recent books are better! The same is true of almost all the base classes. Thus, Pathfinder is upping the powers of those base classes... to move them up to the same level as the more recent supplements.
Bot9S, Complete Mage... these are books that the Pathfinder Fighter and Wizard is competing with at every level... so they should be considered.
If the goal was to create an entirely new game, I would agree that looking at the supplements is a waste of time. But the goal is to be compatible with those supplements... and that means considering the impact the core rule changes are going to have in those other books.
|
|
I never said I dont like the Bo9S, I do in fact wish to play one some day but its unlikely given that most of the other DMs I play with stopped buying 3.5 books after complete adventurer.
I still believe that if wizards hadn't been working in secret on 4e the Bo9S would have still surfaced but would have been far more backwards compatible itself maybe even presenting all the classes inside as fighter paths replacing the fighter from the PHB. This is not the case and as such many of the aspects of the Bo9S are unfriendly to the original 3.5 game.
I agree with you that the intent of Pathfinder is to bring the other classes into balance with the newer stuff but its something wizards should have done along time ago instead of working on 4e. The fact is Pathfinder can only up the power of the core classes because they cannot tone down the other books.
Concern for other optional classes should really be the last thing to consider as the use of those classes is sporadic. The main aim of backwards compatibility should be concentrated on 3rd party publishers, campaign worlds, and adventures because anything created by wizards splat books for 3.5 will never be a part of those. And since wizards will be pulling the books from the shelves to promote 4e they may likely be the first to be forgotten in years to come. To me this is actually a blessing in disguise because the splat books have caused more group arguments than anything else. Not to mention the fact that most DM's don't allow anything from them unless they own the book too.
|
|
From reading the other threads on the topic, it looks as if most people are already houseruling Concentration back out of Spellcraft, and adding some of the Autohypnosis features to it. I know that I have done so (I also use the d20 Modern Concentration description for additional (non-spellcasting) uses as well).
My recommendation would be to create a skill called Endurance that rolls into it the Endurance feat, and the Concentration and Authohypnosis skills.
(Tangent)Am I the only person that thinks Wisdom is a better Ability for Concentration than Constitution? I've always seen it as more of a mental exercise than of physical one--kind of like meditation. (/Tanget)In terms of simulationism, I agree. Mechanically... I misremember who now -- my mind isn't what it used to be -- but someone recently presented an excellent argument in favor of Con. Specifically, Con is a "neutral" stat for all classes, whereas using Wis rigs the usefulness of Concentration in favor of the cleric. If the OP of that argument is here, please raise a hand. Your analysis was cogent, to the point, and unassailably logical.
I think I found it, this post by Todd Johnson, which is quite persuasive.
If Concentration had uses for non-spellcaster classes, I would be all for the return of Concentration. As is, I've already dumped it in my game, but I don't use Bo9S.
Couldn't owners of Bo9S just continue using Concentration as a skill specific to that book or use Knowledge (Maneuvers) in its place?
Personally, I'd like to see Spellcraft and Concentration both go away.
For skill checks, there is already a system in place for events that make it harder to concentrate on a task: circumstance modifiers.
We don't really need a second skill for when the first skill draws an AoO (which is the only time Concentration matters for skills in the SRD). Just make damage dealt a circumstance modifier instead of requiring a separate skill check.
For casters, most of what Spellcraft does can be absorbed by the Knowledge skills. That just leaves a spell casting check of some kind for the caster.
I suggest d20 + Caster Level + Ability Modifier versus the DCs already provided for concentrating on a spell. (This method is really just an expansion on the caster level check that already exists in the SRD.)
For single class spell casters it is pretty close to a maxed Concentration skill, but the caster's level and relevant ability are used instead. Using the caster level makes it lower than a maxed skill, but being able to use the class-favored ability score boosts it back up.
(It also means that a core ability score for the class matters when trying to perform a class-specific task. If a class-neutral score like Constitution can't be used, then the casters should be able to use their class-favored ability score when casting.)
I'm really surprised no one has mentioned the need for Concentration for regaining psionic focus. Spellcraft doesn't seem right for that. I guess one could use psicraft, but that still seems awkward and doesn't solve things for other subsystems.