After re-creating my 16th level fighter in the Alpha 2 rules, I'd like to make this suggestion to replace Weapon Training with the following rule. I feel it keeps the intent of Weapon Training while at the same time using the existing mechanics and rules to acheive the end result.
The solution lies in rewriting the Weapon Focus feat:
The relavent changes would be:
1) Weapon Focus applies to a group of weapons as described under Weapon Training.
2) A fighter who chooses Weapon Focus, automatically gains Weapon Specialization at 4th, Greater Weapon focus at 8th, and Greater Weapon Specialization at 12th level. This would be retroactive... in other words a fighter who chooses Weapon focus: Greataxe at 12th level receives the benefits of the other feats as well.
After the conversion of my character (I must note that we already play with this rule in our campaign), I noticed that the Alpha 2 fighter did hit better, but did only marginally more damage. But I feel that this proposed rule is better in that a fighter could choose to be equally good in 2 dissimilar weapons if he chose to do so, or even be a master of nearly all weapons if so inclined (though at the expense of the versatility gained by investing in other feats).
Thoughts?
I tend to agree with you. But simply put, the feats in question technically are class abilities even though they are not explained that way, as only the fighter can get them. What happens though, is that as the fighter is written now, he must use resources of one "class ability" (more feats than any other class), to gain the use of fighter only weapon focus & specialization "class abilities." This seems silly.
Your suggestion could be made to work. What if the Weapon Focus feat tree was completely taken out of feats, period. And re-written into the fighter progression table as class abilities?
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What if the Weapon Focus feat tree was completely taken out of feats, period. And re-written into the fighter progression table as class abilities?
Now *that's* what I'm talking about! You could even use it to replace weapon training, and avoid all the sticky arguing that's running through the forums.
That's what I found with the combination of Weapon Training and Weapon focus, and in another thread I asked if Weapon Focus feats were still in or were being replaced by Weapon Training. It was a little haphazard. It would be nice to have one or the other.
The Weapon Focus tree could also be expanded beyond Greater Specialization to get more at say 16th level and 20th level. You could keep the +1/+2 ratio going.
I could see weapon training being boosted a bit more and completely replacing the feats, except for focus maybe, which is open to all right now, and should remain so.
Maybe grant weapon training more often for the same benefit (+1), and armour training being stronger the few times you get it (+2 instead of +1)
Fighter could be like this:
1: Weapon Training
2: Feat
3: Armour Training
4: Feat
5: Weapon Training
6: Feat
7: Weapon Training
8: Feat
9: Armour Training
10: Feat
11: Weapon Training
12: Feat
13: Weapon Training
14: Feat
15: Armour Training
16: Feat
17: Weapon Training
18: Feat
19: Armour Mastery
20: Feat, Weapon Mastery
Weapon Training: +1 To prvious weapon groups and to one new weapon group.
Armour Training: +2 to AC, -2 to Armour Penalty
Armour Mastery: DR 5/- for armour or shield, DR 10/- for both.
Weapon Mastery: Autocrit, crit multiplier +1, no disarming.
That's 6x Weapon training and 3x Armour Training.
He'd have +2 AC compared to before (and also DR 10 instead of 5 if he uses a shield in addition to his armour. That's a nice extra incentive to waive the second hand damage bonus!)
It's also +6 to attack and damage. He used to get +6 attack, +8 damage with the feats and old weapon training, so he loses out a bit on his raw damage output, but he frees a couple (4, but since he wouldn't get a feat on level 1, it's 3) of feats and gains more versatility with his trained weapons (6 categories for +6, +5 and others instead of one weapon for +6/+8, the rest for +4 or less).
If you want to be brutal, make weapon training +1 at/+2 dmg. I still suspect that the fighter could take it without being too good.
It's also +6 to attack and damage. He used to get +6 attack, +8 damage with the feats and old weapon training, so he loses out a bit on his raw damage output, but he frees a couple (4, but since he wouldn't get a feat on level 1, it's 3) of feats and gains more versatility with his trained weapons (6 categories for +6, +5 and others instead of one weapon for +6/+8, the rest for +4 or less).
If you want to be brutal, make weapon training +1 at/+2 dmg. I still suspect that the fighter could take it without being too good.
Actually, a fighter could get +7 to hit, +6 damage if he took weapon focus. I think the hit bonus is a bit much. I think you would start to impose your damage will on the barbarian, ranger, and paladin. Also, the fighter has to dedicate a lot of feats to get to +6 to hit and +8 damage at the expense of losing versatility from other feats. I converted my 16th level fighter and while I took the weapon focus feat tree in 3.5 (fighters in our group had modifications in number of feats), I was reluctant to take greater focus and greater specialization for the Alpha 2 version, as I would lose some of my utility feats.
Let's pretend that Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization were thrown out.
Fighter could be this: (I'm omitting Armor Training for the sake of seeing the progression BTW)
1. Weapon Training +1hit
2.
3.
4. Weapon Training +1hit, +2 damage
5.
6.
7.
8. Weapon Training +2 hit, +2 damage
9.
10.
11.
12.Weapon Training +2 hit, +4 damage
13.
14.
15.
16.Weapon Training +3 hit, +4 damage
17.
18.
19.
20.Weapon Training +3 hit, +6 damage
Weapon training would apply to a weapon group, as normal in Alpha 2. There is one problem with this model. It doesn't allow for weapon training in multiple weapon groups. So introduce a feat that would allow the fighter to obtain weapon training in another weapon group. The bonuses would be retroactive, so say a fighter took this new feat at 15th level. He picks a weapon group and gains +2 hit, +4 damage with any weapon from that group.
Keep in mind that Weapon Focus would still exist. A fighter could get a total of +4 hit, +6 damage.
Also, there is Weapon Mastery in PHB II. That's a total of +6 hit, +8 damage.
Alpha 2's fighter can currently attain +8 hit, +10 damage. (Weapon Training +4, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery)
What do you think?
I have to admit that the weapons adept idea is too far out in left field for me. I prefer to work with the existing mechanics of 3.5 or what Paizo puts forth, and go from there in regards to the fighter class, because I think they are pretty sound as a basis as well as simple to understand.
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I have to admit that the weapons adept idea is too far out in left field for me. I prefer to work with the existing mechanics of 3.5 or what Paizo puts forth, and go from there in regards to the fighter class, because I think they are pretty sound as a basis as well as simple to understand.
You're not from Escondido are you anthony?
You're not from Escondido are you anthony?
Nope. Why do you ask?
I like this idea. But you don't even need any new feats. Just say that a fighter's weapon training bonuses apply to any weapon he selects with Weapon Focus.
For example, if you wanted to keep the existing progression:
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls when attacking with any weapon he has selected with the Weapon Focus feat. This bonus applies even if the Weapon Focus feat was taken after this ability was gained.
Every four levels thereafter, the bonus granted by this ability increases by an additional +1.
Does Weapon Focus apply to one weapon as it currently stands or to a group of weapons such as those described in Alpha 2?
Also, it would be nice to get some benefit weapon-wise before 5th level... preferably right off the bat at 1st.
Eh, had a friend in HS named Anthony Valente, thought you might be he. Lost contact with him years ago.You're not from Escondido are you anthony?Nope. Why do you ask?
I'm from the other end of the states... New York.
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Getting rid of Weapon Focus as a feat is as bad an idea as making it work with weapon groups. Fighters aren't the only class that use Weapon Focus. I won't even get into the problems it causes for backwards compatibility and spellcasters that focus on rays.
Weapons Training is a class bonus. Weapon Focus is a feat for ALL classes. They're two different things.
I have to admit that the weapons adept idea is too far out in left field for me. I prefer to work with the existing mechanics of 3.5 or what Paizo puts forth, and go from there in regards to the fighter class, because I think they are pretty sound as a basis as well as simple to understand.What about Weapons Adept doesn't work with the existing mechanics of 3.5? What about it is hard to understand? You pick a weapon in the morning, you practice with it (in a manner not unlike how spellcasters prepare spells) and then you gain bonuses to hit and damage (not unlike the existing weapon focus tree).
I understand the concept of Weapons Adept perfectly. But it doesn't exist as a 3.5 PHB rule mechanic and it is not something that Paizo has put forth in any of the Alpha releases. Hence my stating the above. I prefer to work with what is already there. Really, all I've done in my musings here is re-apply in a different way rules that already exist.
Getting rid of Weapon Focus as a feat is as bad an idea as making it work with weapon groups. Fighters aren't the only class that use Weapon Focus. I won't even get into the problems it causes for backwards compatibility and spellcasters that focus on rays.
Weapons Training is a class bonus. Weapon Focus is a feat for ALL classes. They're two different things.
I don't think anyone here is recommending getting rid of Weapon Focus as a feat. I have recommended "getting rid" of the fighter only feats: Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization and then adding their benefits to the fighter level progression as a class feature at the appropriate levels. This class feature would be called Weapon Training.
In Essence:
Weapon Training: At 1st level, a fighter chooses one group of weapons for his weapon training. At 1st level, the fighter gains +1 to hit with any weapon in this weapon group. At 4th level, he gains +2 to damage, at 8th level he gets an additional +1 to hit, at 12th level he gets an additional +2 to damage.... and I even added that: at 16th level he gets, an additional +1 to hit, at 20th level, he gets an additional +2 to damage, for a total of +3 to hit and +6 to damage at 20th level with any weapon in the weapon group for which he has selected for weapon training.
I also don't see how changing Weapon Focus to apply to weapon groups (rather than one weapon) hurts backwards compatibility. Wizards could still choose Weapon Focus: Rays, and it would work exactly the same. In fact, "Ray" in essence already functions a "weapon group" as you do not have to specify your weapon focus to any particular spell which is a ray. You could cast Scorching Ray one round (and recieve +1 to hit from WF) and Ray of Enfeeblement the next round (and recieve +1 to hit from WF).
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Rearranging Weapon Training, Weapon Mastery and Combat Maneuvers - p. 18
I made each level of Weapon Training as a combination of the benefits of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.