What exactly is the deal on the relationship of these? Does Weapon Training replace the Weapon focus/Weapon Specialization feats or is it in addition to them?
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It does not. Weapon Focus works as it always does. Weapon Specialization does seem to be gone though.
Basically Weapon Training lets you pick a group. You get a +1 to attacks and damage with that group (5th level). When he gets Weapon Training again (9th), the first group goes up to +2 and the new group is +1. Takes it (13th) again +3 to first, +2 to second, +1 to new group.
Yup, I got how the Weapon Training Class feature works. But I was under the impression that it was put in to replace Weapon Focus & Specialization.
It sounds like you're saying that Weapon focus is still there, but Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization are gone.
Do I have it right? I'm wondering because that's a lotta bonus if all of this is in! All totalled it would eventually be: +6 to hit, +8 damage (+8 to hit, +10 damage with Melee Weapon Mastery) with your first weapon.
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It does not. Weapon Focus works as it always does. Weapon Specialization does seem to be gone though.
Basically Weapon Training lets you pick a group. You get a +1 to attacks and damage with that group (5th level). When he gets Weapon Training again (9th), the first group goes up to +2 and the new group is +1. Takes it (13th) again +3 to first, +2 to second, +1 to new group.
Are we certain that weapon specialization is gone?
I assumed that the new Weapon Training rules were designed to be used in addition to weapon specialization to give fighters a reason to stick with the class beyond 4th level. However, I did get the feeling that the new rules removed the need for Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization.
Removing weapon specialization entirely will damage backward compatibility, making it harder to use existing 3.5 material in a pathfinder game.
If it is desirable to replace the old weapon specialization rules with the new weapon training class ability, it might be better to introduce this ability at 4th level and make the initial bonuses granted by it equivalent to those granted by weapon specialization under the 3.5 ruleset. This turns weapon training into a form of 'extended' weapon specialization, similar to the weapon mastery rules from earlier versions of D&D.
Personally, I'd like to see fighters get some form of fighting style training like they did back in 2e.
Yup, I got how the Weapon Training Class feature works. But I was under the impression that it was put in to replace Weapon Focus & Specialization.
It sounds like you're saying that Weapon focus is still there, but Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization are gone.
Do I have it right? I'm wondering because that's a lotta bonus if all of this is in! All totalled it would eventually be: +6 to hit, +8 damage (+8 to hit, +10 damage with Melee Weapon Mastery) with your first weapon.
I don't know where it says that weapon specialization is gone but, I don't know that its still in either but greater weapon focus is sill in its a prerequisites for Deadly Stroke.
If all of the feats in question are still in, it really sort of makes the iterative weapon groups you choose to train in almost pointless, because there would be such a large gap in the bonuses.
I'm going to rebuild my 15th level fighter in the new rules to compare. Be back in a while.
Not sure why getting more bonuses would be pointless, or why having some groups at a higher bonus than others is a problem. At the higher end of the spectrum, barbarians and paladins and rangers may still be running into things they can't count on hitting, but fighters will be able to tear into them, giving the fighter the "dependable" niche among front line fighters.
Also, this means that a fighter with a weapon from his chosen group, that he is also specialized in, can afford to try combat maneuvers and feats that require him to take a penalty to his roll moreso than any other class, reinforcing the idea that fighters are the "technique" front line fighter.
I like the concept.
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this means that a fighter with a weapon from his chosen group, that he is also specialized in, can afford to try combat maneuvers and feats that require him to take a penalty to his roll moreso than any other class, reinforcing the idea that fighters are the "technique" front line fighter.
This is a very good point, but it isn't made explicit in the rules - perhaps it should be.
Hmmm....perhaps fighters should receive a bonus to their CMB from Weapon Training rather than a bonus to their attack and damage rolls? This would give them a real incentive to try out interesting maneuvers in combat. High-level trip-masters armed with a spiked chain would be truly scary though....
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It sounds like you're saying that Weapon focus is still there, but Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization are gone.
No, I'm saying Weapon Specialization is likely gone. The Weapon Focus feats aren't effected by Weapons Training. Other classes do take Weapon Focus, there's no reason to remove them.. unlike Weapon Specialization, a feat a fighter can only take who btw gets a better ability at the same level now.
Removing weapon specialization entirely will damage backward compatibility, making it harder to use existing 3.5 material in a pathfinder game.
Really? Besides Improved & Greater Weapon Specialization, what in 3e requires Weapon Specialization? I'm curious.
Hmmm....perhaps fighters should receive a bonus to their CMB from Weapon Training rather than a bonus to their attack and damage rolls? This would give them a real incentive to try out interesting maneuvers in combat. High-level trip-masters armed with a spiked chain would be truly scary though....
And while that does sound interested.. how does a traditional sword & board fighter benefit from Weapon Training giving bonuses to CMB? Disarming your opponent? Yeah.. works real well when most monsters have natural weapons. Bull Rush? Yeah fine.. it flies or is too big.
Manuevers don't do damage. Weapon Training is to help keep the fighter in the game at late levels. Most of the Manuevers aren't very impressive when you look at the CMBs of very high level monsters.
[SNIP]Personally, I'd like to see fighters get some form of fighting style training like they did back in 2e. [/SNIP]
You mean something similar to Book of Nine Swords? You have various styles, each of which has an innate bonus, and you can only use the combat feats appropriate to your active style? Honestly sounds more appropriate to monk than fighter.
As for the CMB maneuvers not doing damage, I can live with that. Take Trip as an example. Target goes prone. To stand up, they trigger a free trip attack. While prone, they are penalized to BAB and AC versus melee actions. With Combat Reflexes, one warrior can hold several opponents prone. Gods help anyone fighting where two (or more) of these warriors have AoO when the attempt to stand is made. Not a bad build for the city watch, come to think of it.
Hm. Must think more on this. Evil evil ideas, like a polearm trip feat that allows Strikes that have a secondary trip effect... Shouldn't have seen Forbidden Kingdom.
I vote for making Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization one feat and Weapon Training be working the same way, but stacking to itself (and the feat mentioned above).
Not sure why getting more bonuses would be pointless, or why having some groups at a higher bonus than others is a problem. At the higher end of the spectrum, barbarians and paladins and rangers may still be running into things they can't count on hitting, but fighters will be able to tear into them, giving the fighter the "dependable" niche among front line fighters.
The problem I see is this if all of it is in:
First weapon group +4 to hit and damage
Second weapon group +3 to hit and damage
Weapon Focus in one weapon from first weapon group
Weapon Specialization in same weapon in first weapon group
and so on... with Greater Focus, Greater Specialization, Weapon Mastery
The result?
+8 to hit and +10 damage with the weapon you Focused and Specialized in
+4 to hit and damage with all other weapons in first weapon group
+3 to hit and damage with all weapons in 3rd weapon group
I don't see the average fighter player whipping out any of his secondary weapons when he is so much better with his primary weapon. All it accomplishes is that it results in making the fighter better with his weapon of choice.
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Not sure why getting more bonuses would be pointless, or why having some groups at a higher bonus than others is a problem. At the higher end of the spectrum, barbarians and paladins and rangers may still be running into things they can't count on hitting, but fighters will be able to tear into them, giving the fighter the "dependable" niche among front line fighters.The problem I see is this if all of it is in:
First weapon group +4 to hit and damage
Second weapon group +3 to hit and damage
Weapon Focus in one weapon from first weapon group
Weapon Specialization in same weapon in first weapon group
and so on... with Greater Focus, Greater Specialization, Weapon Mastery
The result?
+8 to hit and +10 damage with the weapon you Focused and Specialized in
+4 to hit and damage with all other weapons in first weapon group
+3 to hit and damage with all weapons in 3rd weapon group
I don't see the average fighter player whipping out any of his secondary weapons when he is so much better with his primary weapon. All it accomplishes is that it results in making the fighter better with his weapon of choice.
Some monsters have better defenses against certain types of weapons (ie blugeoning, piercing, slashing)
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Not sure why getting more bonuses would be pointless, or why having some groups at a higher bonus than others is a problem. At the higher end of the spectrum, barbarians and paladins and rangers may still be running into things they can't count on hitting, but fighters will be able to tear into them, giving the fighter the "dependable" niche among front line fighters.The problem I see is this if all of it is in:
First weapon group +4 to hit and damage
Second weapon group +3 to hit and damage
Weapon Focus in one weapon from first weapon group
Weapon Specialization in same weapon in first weapon group
and so on... with Greater Focus, Greater Specialization, Weapon Mastery
The result?
+8 to hit and +10 damage with the weapon you Focused and Specialized in
+4 to hit and damage with all other weapons in first weapon group
+3 to hit and damage with all weapons in 3rd weapon group
I don't see the average fighter player whipping out any of his secondary weapons when he is so much better with his primary weapon. All it accomplishes is that it results in making the fighter better with his weapon of choice.
Which is the choice of the fighter that took that feat chain, Which will be disparate from the other fighter in the party who uses combat feats over a spread of weapons to be a great generalist. I don't get the issue if a single player chooses to follow that path.
I am all for using weapon groups instead of the "normal" weapon proficiencies.
AND making feats like weapon focus work on one group instead of one single weapon.
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WEAPON FOCUS
Prerequisite: BAB +4
Benefit: Choose a weapon group in which you are proficient. You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and a +2 bonus on all damage rolls made with weapons of the choosen group.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, but it's effects do not stack. Choose another group everytime you select this feat.
However, the bonus from this feat stacks with those granted by the fighters weapon training ability.
WEAPON SPECIALIZATION
Prerequisite: BAB +8, Weapon Focus
Benefit: Choose a weapon group in which you also got a weapon focus. You gain an additional +1 bonus on all attack rolls and a +2 bonus on all damage rolls made with weapons of the choosen group, stacking with those granted by the weapon focus feat.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, but it's effects do not stack. Choose another group everytime you select this feat.
However, the bonus from this feat stacks with those granted by the fighters weapon training ability.
I am all for using weapon groups instead of the "normal" weapon proficiencies.
AND making feats like weapon focus work on one group instead of one single weapon.I too would like to see this done. This minor change alone would help alot, and would be in line with all of the standards Paizo is trying to adhere to with Alpha 2.
I dont have my pdf in front of me at the moment but do you have to upgrade the weapon groups in order of selection. It seems that it would limit the effectivness of changing weapon styles at higher levels.
What about something similar to the ranger favored enemies system?
i.e.
First group: Heavy Sword
at next option level pick up light sword at +1 and raise heavy to +2
at next option level pick up spears at +1, leave heavy sword at +2 and then raise the light sword to being the +3 rate.
I might be mis-remembering how the favored enemy system works right now but I dont have any of the books in front of me.
The concept Im trying to convey is if your character starts as a sword & shield player at level 1 and stays there till level 10 then finds a very nice greatsword they want to start using it would never be as good as anythin else you had picked before (this is especially true for some of the exotic weapons out there)
Just my 2 cents worth...
I am all for using weapon groups instead of the "normal" weapon proficiencies.
AND making feats like weapon focus work on one group instead of one single weapon.I too would like to see this done. This minor change alone would help alot, and would be in line with all of the standards Paizo is trying to adhere to with Alpha 2.
I also like the weapon group idea although I would like to see it as a way to be able to gain access to more exotic weapons in play as well. It seems less than fair to use a feat to only gain the ability to use one single weapon without penalty (especially since exotic magic weapons dont exactly show up all the time and even when they do it might not be for the one YOU choose)
Hmmm, I don't see greater weapon focus or specialization amongst the listed removed feats. And if they are not in Alpha 2 either, it means that they are unchanged.
I would personally like to see both Weapon Focus (Greater Weapo Focus) and Weapon Specialization (GReater Weapon Specialization) remain in PFRPG including keeping Weapon Specialization as fighter only. Apply both to a single weapon. This combined with the Weapon Training class feature will make a fighter much sure the fighter outstrips another frontline combatant such as the Barbarian or Paladin by a considerable amount...a 13th level fighter taking all four feats would have a +5 attack and a +7 damage on top of his BAB and Strength Bonus. Keeping these feats will help keep the fighter competitive with other frontliners. Especiall combined with the effects of Armor Training.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I would personally like to see both Weapon Focus (Greater Weapo Focus) and Weapon Specialization (GReater Weapon Specialization) remain in PFRPG including keeping Weapon Specialization as fighter only. Apply both to a single weapon. This combined with the Weapon Training class feature will make a fighter much sure the fighter outstrips another frontline combatant such as the Barbarian or Paladin by a considerable amount...a 13th level fighter taking all four feats would have a +5 attack and a +7 damage on top of his BAB and Strength Bonus. Keeping these feats will help keep the fighter competitive with other frontliners. Especiall combined with the effects of Armor Training.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I completely agree. They aren't flashy, but they are dependable, moreso than any front line fighters. I really like it that way. I hope this doesn't get changed much at all.
Oh I don't want them to change, I just don't see the point to Weapon Specialization being in the game anymore.
Well, I get that it might not seem like much at 20th level, but I do have two reasons I still like specialization.
1. At lower levels, the boost is still important.
2. It gives the fighter a very specific signature, over and above his general favored weapon group.
Hmmm, I don't see greater weapon focus or specialization amongst the listed removed feats. And if they are not in Alpha 2 either, it means that they are unchanged.
Hence the initial reason I started the thread. I just would like to know for certain if the feats in question are all still in and are stackable with Weapon Training. I've been rebuilding two fighters I play in 2 different campaigns and will report my "perception" of the new rules... lots of interesting stuff I'm finding out.
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Not sure why getting more bonuses would be pointless, or why having some groups at a higher bonus than others is a problem. At the higher end of the spectrum, barbarians and paladins and rangers may still be running into things they can't count on hitting, but fighters will be able to tear into them, giving the fighter the "dependable" niche among front line fighters.
Also, this means that a fighter with a weapon from his chosen group, that he is also specialized in, can afford to try combat maneuvers and feats that require him to take a penalty to his roll moreso than any other class, reinforcing the idea that fighters are the "technique" front line fighter.
I like the concept.
Well said, Knight! I completely agree -- in 3E I have been very frustrated in Paladins, Rangers and Clerics easily matching (and often surpassing) my high-level fighter in melee abilities. And, I haven't used Power Attack for a long while, because that results in half my attacks missing my foes, and the bonus on damage doesn't compensate for this. I'm seeing PF definitely changing this for the better, and now I could see even high-level fighters using Power Attack and Expertise constantly.
I've finally converted my 16th level fighter from 3.5 to Alpha 2. Here are the results:
I must note that we don't use the fighter class strait out of the PHB, but have modified the class as I suspect many groups do. Aside from give the fighter 4 skill points per level:
1) Fighters in our group recieve a bonus feat at every level in which they don't recieve a character feat, which essentially amounts to a total of 21 feats (22 if human) over 20 levels.
2) In addition, if a fighter chooses weapon focus, he automatically gains Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization at the requisite levels. In effect, this make Weapon Focus a scaleable feat for the fighter.
Onto comparisons....
My fighter is of the 2-weapon variety. In the comparison below I've omitted extra types of damage recieved from magical properties. Also, I tried to convert my fighter as accurately as possible using the Alpha 2 rules, without getting into new feats such as Overhand Chop, etc.
Here are the numbers:
TO HIT:...................3.5 VERSION........................ALPHA 2 VERSION
Main Hand..............+26, +21, +16, +11...........+28, +23, +18, +13
Off Hand.................+26, +21, +16...................+28, +23, +18
DAMAGE:...............3.5 VERSION.........................ALPHA 2 VERSION
Main Hand.............1d8 +14...............................1d8 +15
Off Hand................1d8 +11...............................1d8 +12
2-Weapon Rend.....1d6 +9.................................1d10 +9
My findings:
An Alpha 2 fighter certainly can attain higher numbers than a PHB fighter. It is better at hitting than many "fighter fixes" I would guess too, at least better than our house ruled fighter. As far as damage goes, it is not appreciably better than our house ruled fighter at least, especially in my fighter's case where in 3.5 I can 2-weapon rend more than one opponent per round.
Also in regards to the initial reasons of this thread, I found that the difference between a fighter's primary weapon and secondary weapons stayed essentially the same (either varying by one point or not at all)... all that happened was that the to hit numbers moved up.
I was not able to get Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization in the Alpha 2 version (as my 3.5 modified fighter has) because I would have to lose other feats. On the other hand, Weapon Training made up for this and actually increased damage by one point as you can see.
Personally, I like our house rule of scaleable Weapon Focus for fighters better overall than Weapon Training in Alpha 2. I think it is easier for backwards compatibility as well as using existing mechanics (i.e. working with the focus and specialization feats) instead of adding a new rule on top of them. It also encourages the possibility of the fighter being equally good at two different weapons without investing a lot of his feats to do so. True, you can be equally good at two different weapons in Alpha 2, but they will be from the same weapon group (the 1st one you choose), and to progress any further, you must invest weapon focus feats in them separately. One solution to this is as before mentioned, is to make weapon focus apply to a weapon group instead of a single weapon, but the scaleable weapon focus would allow more flexibility in that you could be really good with dissimilar weapons such as greatsword and bow if you chose to do so, without investing alot of feats.
My opinion is that all existing feats should be as supported as possible by Pathfinder, including weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, and (I didn't realize it had been nerfed) POWER ATTACK!
If the point is to beef up fighters to be able to do damage on a scale so they aren't outclassed by rogues and wizards, then, changing power attack is a mistake.
I thought the point of changing the fighter was to make it more effective and powerful. I like the idea of adding weapon and armor abilities. More feats is also a good idea. I like the idea of getting bonus feats every level you don't get a character feat. In fact, I like it so much, I'd change the new weapon and armor stuff to become feats and let fighters choose them if they want them and ignore them if they don't and just get a new feat at every level they don't get a character feat. GREAT IDEA!
I like the idea of getting bonus feats every level you don't get a character feat. In fact, I like it so much, I'd change the new weapon and armor stuff to become feats and let fighters choose them if they want them and ignore them if they don't and just get a new feat at every level they don't get a character feat. GREAT IDEA!
I would even go as far to say that a fighter should get a feat at every level in addition to the character feats (I'm keeping the 3.5 number of feats: 7 in mind when I say this, not Alpha 2's 10ish?). This especially if they continue to explore Combat Feats of which you can only use one per round.