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There's been a lot of talk of Power Attack and Combat Expertise being nerfed floating around - though I find some level of veracity in these concerns, I found a glaring issue (for my perception anyway) that I hadn't yet seen addressed.
There are a lot of REALLY good feats for two-handed weapon wielders: (overhand chop, backward swing, devastating etc) which are making alot of the players take notice and wanting to play the big guns now - especially with the AWESOME new barbarian. Those 2-hand weapon feats are super! I think they are great!
Personally, however, I've always been a shield guy - loving paladins and having as much protections as possible.
There are some really good shield based feats - however it requires 2-weapon fighting to use them! That feat requires a 15 Dex. To me - most people who rely on shields - do so because they DONT have a very good Dexterity. They use to shield to make up for the fact that they aren't getting a lot of dodge AC. And to exacerbate that fairness issue, you dont even get to keep the shield bonus to AC if you MISS your attack roll!
Improved Shield Bash in the PHB (which as far as I know has not been altered yet) does not require 2 weapon fighting and thus does not require the 15 DEX. It grants the AC bonus regardless if you hit or miss.
I would love to be able to use some of those really good shield feats, but expecting a armored fighter to have a 15 DEX on top of his usual needs (Str, Con) is a bit much IMO. And if were talking a Paladin that needs a Charisma and Wisdom score too - well just forget it.
I looked across the table and saw three of the characters using these 2 handed feats and asked why no one is trying to playtest the shield feats and their answers were all the same - I dont have a 15 Dex. The best one had a 14, and he had Dodge and Mobility.
Am I the only one who feels that the Shield lovers are being a bit unloved?
I'm thinking to fix this is to have Imp Shield Bash (from PHB) as the "base feat" for these other cool shield-based feats. And dont make AC lost if you miss!
What do you lose if you miss with Overhand Chop? With Backhand Swing or Devastating? Nothing. You dont hit - but you dont lose anything. Instead a paladin with a shield would need a 15 DEX, Two Weapon Fighting Feat and then Deft Shield feat and if he then missed an attack with his shield he's lost the AC for that round from it; which sounds very punitive in my opinion.
Sure 2-weapon fighting feat may be desired by some who wish to lessen the penalties if attacking both at the same time - but it appears to me that some of those feats - Shield Slam especially can be done without needing to attack with both weapons. Shield Mastery - that one I can see needing 2-weapon fighting to take full advantage of - but even that needing that 15 DEX is tough.
Regardless Deft Shield just seems a weaker version of Improved Shield Bash that really doesn't synergize with shield users very well to take full advantage of it.
Robert
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Historicly, both two weapon fighting and two-handed weapon fighting were very rare. Roman legions trained peasants in the use of shield and spear/sword, but Persian knights had to train from childhood to be able to use two scimitars at the same time. Great-sword using infantry from 16th century consisted of veteran soldiers, with double pay, because it was very hard to learn how to use 6' long sword effectively. Therefore, it would be common sense for the sword-and-shield (or axe and shield, or spear etc.) to most common fighting stile and most easy to learn.
You are not alone. The shield feats are really kind of lackluster, maybe its because Deft Shield is, well, crap. The only reason to take it is for the other feats, otherwise Improved Shield Bash improves all the benefits and has no prerequisites. Personally, I'd like the shield feats to draw from RL offensive shield use, you bash with the shield, not for damage, but lower the opponent's AC or make him flat-footed. Additionally, rework Deft Shield to allow a Shield Bash as an additional attack, not TWF, here is what I would do:
Deft Shield
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency
Benefit: Whenever you take a full-round or standard action to attack you may make a Shield Bash at your highest attack bonus before any attacks are made.
Shield Slam (Combat)
Prerequisites: Deft Shield, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: Whenever you attack with a shield bash, you may choose to for the damage to reduce the target's AC for 1 round instead of reducing hit points.
Improved Shield Slam (Combat)
Prerequisites: Deft Shield, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: Whenever you attack with a shield bash, you may choose to for the damage to reduce the target's AC for 1 round instead of reducing hit points. Additionally, the target becomes flat-footed until the beginning of his next turn, this applies even if you choose to deal hit point damage with this ability.
Stunning Bash (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +3
Benefit: Whenever you make a shield bash this turn you deal no damage, instead target is stunned 1 round.
Greater Stunning Bash (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Stunning Bash, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: Whenever you make a shield bash this turn you deal no damage, instead target is stunned 1d4+1 rounds.
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You are not alone. The shield feats are really kind of lackluster, maybe its because Deft Shield is, well, crap. The only reason to take it is for the other feats, otherwise Improved Shield Bash improves all the benefits and has no prerequisites. Personally, I'd like the shield feats to draw from RL offensive shield use, you bash with the shield, not for damage, but lower the opponent's AC or make him flat-footed. Additionally, rework Deft Shield to allow a Shield Bash as an additional attack, not TWF, here is what I would do:
Thanks for the response. I'm not so much interested in revamping all the feats in the tree essentially - I do like what I see - I just feel that the "lose AC if you miss" is harsh, and the need for 2-weapon fighting is asking for too much.
Robert
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I made some posts about this earlier on the Alpha 1 threads, but they were lost to the archives with so many threads.
Links:
Deft Shield
More Dynamic Shield Use
I'll post my ideas again, in the hopes more people see them and comment on them.
I decided to build a "sword-and-board" fighter to take advantage of the new shield combat feats, and I ran into the big change from Improved Shield Bash to Deft Shield: Two-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite.
Mechanically, this makes sense, as making a shield bash is technically a 2-weapon attack. But I think it takes something away from specific fighter types.
A two-weapon fighter has the Two-Weapon feats.
A big, 2-handed weapon fighter has the Overhand Chop progression.
An archer has the Point Blank Shot progression.
An unarmed fighter has the Scorpion Style progression.
The weapon-and-shield fighter has the Deft Shield progression, but he needs Two-Weapon Fighting first.
Why is this a problem? Because if I have to get TWF anyways to shield bash, the min-maxer in me would say just use a short sword (better damage, increased threat range) and take Two-Weapon Defense. I get a better attack and the AC bonus. Especially if I have to wait until 6th level to get the next shield feat (Shield Slam).
There's no reason (other than roleplaying) to be a sword-and-board fighter with shield bash, because a normal two-weapon fighter would be more effective.
Of course, I might still take TWF to reduce the penalties on my shield bash, but I don't like being required to take it.
Maybe there could be another feat to replace TWF as a prerequisite, something like:
Weapon-and-Shield Style
You are specialized in fighting with a weapon and shield. You are skilled in making a shield bash along with your normal weapon attack.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced when fighting with a weapon and shield only. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
Normal: You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand martial bludgeoning weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the shield bash with your off hand. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round).
This is effectively the same as Two-Weapon Fighting, but restricted to shields. Two-Weapon Fighting should probably be modified to NOT apply to shields as a result. And then you would have feats for distinct fighting styles.
Maybe to further separate it from Two-Weapon Fighting, it could also allow you to reduce the shield's Armor Check penalty by 1. Something affecting AC would be better, but then you're straying into Deft Shield's area.
Of course, this doesn't address the Dex 15 requirement mentioned above, so maybe reduce it to Dex 13, or get rid of the Dex requirement completely, and go with a +1 BAB requirement instead.
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Also, is there any way to make a change that bucklers can be used for shield bashes? I understand the probable reasoning (too small for an effective bash, just like a tower shield is too big and unwieldy), but bucklers were in fact used in just this way as a "metal fist".
I would say make it equivalent to a metal gauntlet, but that's the same as a light shield bash, so it would probably require redoing all of the shield damage. Rather than increasing the damage by 1 die for shield spikes, increase all shield damage by one die, and simply add a +1 damage modifier for shield spikes.
It would look like the following:
Gauntlet 1d2/1d3
Buckler not allowed
Light shield 1d2/1d3
Light spiked shield 1d3/1d4
Heavy shield 1d3/1d4
Heavy spiked shield 1d4/1d6
Gauntlet 1d2/1d3
Buckler 1d2/1d3
Light shield 1d3/1d4
Light spiked shield 1d3+1/1d4+1
Heavy shield 1d4/1d6
Heavy spiked shield 1d4+1/1d6+1
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Mechanically, this makes sense, as making a shield bash is technically a 2-weapon attack. But I think it takes something away from specific fighter types.
A two-weapon fighter has the Two-Weapon feats.
A big, 2-handed weapon fighter has the Overhand Chop progression.
An archer has the Point Blank Shot progression.
An unarmed fighter has the Scorpion Style progression.
The weapon-and-shield fighter has the Deft Shield progression, but he needs Two-Weapon Fighting first.Why is this a problem? Because if I have to get TWF anyways to shield bash, the min-maxer in me would say just use a short sword (better damage, increased threat range) and take Two-Weapon Defense. I get a better attack and the AC bonus. Especially if I have to wait until 6th level to get the next shield feat (Shield Slam).
There's no reason (other than roleplaying) to be a sword-and-board fighter with shield bash, because a normal two-weapon fighter would be more effective.
Of course, I might still take TWF to reduce the penalties on my shield bash, but I don't like being required to take it.
This is exactly my sentiments! It seems this option of character combat style is significantly weaker.
I hope that this can be addressed and worked on.
I do disagree however with bucklers for the use of smashing. Although it may not be historically accurate, the lt shield provides the same AC bonus as a buckler and it is for smashing. The difference is it has to use up your "hand." For game balance and purposes i can see the rationale behind it all and I agree with it.
Robert
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I am preparing a paladin for a game, and I would love to have a little more attention paid to sword and board fighting. I want to be the type of character who not only fights against evil, but also protects my companions. I would love options for feats (or maybe paladin abilities or something?) that allows me to give my shield bonus to a companion for an attack or a round, losing it for myself, of course. It was one of my favorite maneuvers for a crusader/cleric i was playing.
I also like the idea of shield bash not dealing damage, but unbalancing opponents - lowering their AC or knocking them off balance and making them flat-footed against others' attacks. It gives the sword and board fighter some interesting options without taking away from the coolness and sheer damaging power of two weapon fighting. I would be concerned about stunning with a shield bash, however - that makes the stunned character lose AC, dex bonus to AC, and drop all held objects - that seems like too much until you get reasonably high in level. Dazed might be better, or possibly deafened.
"What? I can't hear you...my head's still ringing from being whacked in the face with that shield!"
I guess I've always been of a different mind about shields. The primary use of a shield is DEFENSE. It is interposed between you and an opponent so that he/she/it can't whack you. All this focus on shield bashing seems sort of silly. From personal experience you keep your shield up and between you and where a blow is likely to land.
I would like to see a feat tree that takes advantage of the defensive nature of shields.
CJ
I am preparing a paladin for a game, and I would love to have a little more attention paid to sword and board fighting. I want to be the type of character who not only fights against evil, but also protects my companions. I would love options for feats (or maybe paladin abilities or something?) that allows me to give my shield bonus to a companion for an attack or a round, losing it for myself, of course. It was one of my favorite maneuvers for a crusader/cleric i was playing.
I also like the idea of shield bash not dealing damage, but unbalancing opponents - lowering their AC or knocking them off balance and making them flat-footed against others' attacks. It gives the sword and board fighter some interesting options without taking away from the coolness and sheer damaging power of two weapon fighting. I would be concerned about stunning with a shield bash, however - that makes the stunned character lose AC, dex bonus to AC, and drop all held objects - that seems like too much until you get reasonably high in level. Dazed might be better, or possibly deafened.
"What? I can't hear you...my head's still ringing from being whacked in the face with that shield!"
Read Monte Cooke's Book of Experimental Might II: Bloody, Bold, and Resolute there are some good shield feats in there
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Read Monte Cooke's Book of Experimental Might II: Bloody, Bold, and Resolute there are some good shield feats in there
"What? I can't hear you...my head's still ringing from being whacked in the face with that shield!"
I like that Jess.
Joey: thats all well and good unless they're applied to this RPG product as well - here's hoping the Monte adds a little influence over the designers with these shield notions of his now that he's on board with the project.
Robert
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I would like to see a feat tree that takes advantage of the defensive nature of shields.
CJ
Oh, absolutely. There's no reason why both trees couldn't exist. One for the basher, one for improved defense: Shields having higher AC bonuses, and abilities like the Shield Ward feat in the PHB 2 provides - and the ability as someone suggested to be able to protect others.
Robert
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I am preparing a paladin for a game, and I would love to have a little more attention paid to sword and board fighting. I want to be the type of character who not only fights against evil, but also protects my companions. I would love options for feats (or maybe paladin abilities or something?) that allows me to give my shield bonus to a companion for an attack or a round, losing it for myself, of course. It was one of my favorite maneuvers for a crusader/cleric i was playing.
That is exactly what I was doing when I found this glaring issue - I, too, made a (dwarven) paladin with the mindset of being the meatshield and protector of my companions and went immediately to the shield feats, and then saw to my dismay that there was no way i could ever hope to have the feats - AND even if I did - the notion of losing my AC from my shield IF I ever made a bash attempt and failed - hard to swallow after dedicating 8 stat point from the 28 pt build to the DEX, and then spending my first level feat on Two-weapon and my 3rd on Deft Shield
Robert
The most fun I ever had with a sword & board fighter was when I played a Dwarven Crusader. His AC was great (in the low-mid 30's at level 8 when the campaign ended; even his touch AC was decent thanks to Shield Ward) and he was able to protect his allies both directly and indirectly. He had a stance that gave any adjacent opponent a -4 to attack anyone but him and an immediate action maneuver that gave an adjacent ally a bonus to its AC equal to his shield AC +4 - +9 AC, in this case - against a single attack. Then, since things generally felt obliged to hit him, whenever he took damage he hit harder and more accurately, which fueled his healing attacks... he was a great shield-user and a lot of fun in a fight.
Not directly applicable to the discussion, but maybe it'll spark some ideas.
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The most fun I ever had with a sword & board fighter was when I played a Dwarven Crusader. His AC was great (in the low-mid 30's at level 8 when the campaign ended; even his touch AC was decent thanks to Shield Ward) and he was able to protect his allies both directly and indirectly. He had a stance that gave any adjacent opponent a -4 to attack anyone but him and an immediate action maneuver that gave an adjacent ally a bonus to its AC equal to his shield AC +4 - +9 AC, in this case - against a single attack. Then, since things generally felt obliged to hit him, whenever he took damage he hit harder and more accurately, which fueled his healing attacks... he was a great shield-user and a lot of fun in a fight.
Not directly applicable to the discussion, but maybe it'll spark some ideas.
My last paladin I played was a lot like this (human named Sir Warner of Tyr); with his shield ward feat and his tower shield, his touch AC was stoopid! and he was good at defending/protecting others.
Robert
I know that this is a thread on feats for shield wielding characters, but I have been contemplating changing the actual shield bonuses when I start a new campaign after my current one. It's a minor tweak, I know but to me seems sensible:
1) Buckler +1
2) Light Shield +2 AC
3) Heavy Shield +3 AC
4 Tower Shield +4 AC
Another alternative I'm thinking is to keep the shield bonuses as is, but make a new category of shield called a War Shield which gives a +3 AC bonus.
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I know that this is a thread on feats for shield wielding characters, but I have been contemplating changing the actual shield bonuses when I start a new campaign after my current one. It's a minor tweak, I know but to me seems sensible:
1) Buckler +1
2) Light Shield +2 AC
3) Heavy Shield +3 AC
4 Tower Shield +4 AC
I've already made this change- except tower is +5. It needs to be 2 points higher than the heavy to compesate for the -2 to attack rolls; and +5 is not too ridiculous from my playtesting.
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I also like the idea of shield bash not dealing damage, but unbalancing opponents - lowering their AC or knocking them off balance and making them flat-footed against others' attacks.
The easiest way is to work in the game special results for criticals.
You can get similar results with the trip and bull rush maneuvers.
Finally, see my take on the feint maneuver and my demoralize maneuver.
They are not shield-specific, but you can portray the effects as the result of your shield-fu.
I've redone some of my previous shield feats and added a few more.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency
Benefit: Whenever you take a full-round or standard action to attack you may make a Shield Bash at your highest attack bonus before any attacks are made.
Shield Slam (Combat)
Prerequisites: Deft Shield, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: Whenever you attack with a shield bash, you may choose to for the damage to reduce the target's AC for 1 round instead of reducing hit points.
Improved Shield Slam (Combat)
Prerequisites: Deft Shield, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: Whenever you attack with a shield bash, you may choose to for the damage to reduce the target's AC for 1 round instead of reducing hit points. Additionally, the target becomes flat-footed until the beginning of his next turn, this applies even if you choose to deal hit point damage with this ability.
Stunning Bash (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +3
Benefit: Whenever you make a shield bash this turn you deal no damage, instead target is dazed 1 round.
Greater Stunning Bash (Combat)
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Stunning Bash, base attack bonus +11
Benefit: Whenever you make a shield bash this turn you deal no damage, instead target is dazed 1d4+1 rounds.
Shield Ally
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: As an immediate action you may forgo your shield bonus until the beginning of your next turn to apply it to an adjacent ally for one attack.
Improved Shield Ally
Prerequisites: Shield Ally, Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +3
Benefit: Your Shield Ally ability now grants your shield bonus to an adjacent ally until the beginning of your next turn.
Spell Shield
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: Once per round as an immediate action you may forgo your shield bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn to gain your shield bonus as a deflection bonus verse a single spell that requires a melee or ranged touch attack.
Improved Spell Shield
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency, Spell Shield, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: Your shield bonus counts as a deflection bonus against spells that require melee or ranged touch attacks.
I've already made this change- except tower is +5. It needs to be 2 points higher than the heavy to compesate for the -2 to attack rolls; and +5 is not too ridiculous from my playtesting.
I agree that the tower shield would need compensation. I was contemplating that I'd add a feat that would eliminate the -2 penalty to hit however, and keep the bonus at +4.
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I've already made this change- except tower is +5. It needs to be 2 points higher than the heavy to compesate for the -2 to attack rolls; and +5 is not too ridiculous from my playtesting.I agree that the tower shield would need compensation. I was contemplating that I'd add a feat that would eliminate the -2 penalty to hit however, and keep the bonus at +4.
Nah - if you're raising all the others - it should go to +5 IMO - it takes a feat (or fighter ONLY) just to be able to use it.
And I too have a feat that can get rid of the -2.
Robert
Nah - if you're raising all the others - it should go to +5 IMO - it takes a feat (or fighter ONLY) just to be able to use it.
And I too have a feat that can get rid of the -2.
Robert
Just curious... do any of your players use a tower shield? How do they like it? None of my players would go for it under its current incarnation.
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Just curious... do any of your players use a tower shield? How do they like it? None of my players would go for it under its current incarnation.Nah - if you're raising all the others - it should go to +5 IMO - it takes a feat (or fighter ONLY) just to be able to use it.
And I too have a feat that can get rid of the -2.
Robert
None of my players currently use one. I used one with my last characters (a paladin) and I loved it - especially for the full cover and standing in front of another PC to shield him from danger - especially spells.
Robert
Some great ideas on this page! Hope it comes to the attention of the designers....
tfad
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I've redone some of my previous shield feats and added a few more.
I like some of these feats - pretty cool.
I was wondering though - why not make some of these thing as "combat options" like Trip, Disarm, and Overrun are.
Then anyone with a shield can attempt some of them - but a feat make it more plausible.
The Losing 1 pt of AC for a round is a perfect example of something that can done as a manuever.
Just food for thought....
Robert
I've redone some of my previous shield feats and added a few more.
I like some of these feats - pretty cool.
I was wondering though - why not make some of these thing as "combat options" like Trip, Disarm, and Overrun are.
Then anyone with a shield can attempt some of them - but a feat make it more plausible.
The Losing 1 pt of AC for a round is a perfect example of something that can done as a manuever.
Just food for thought....
Robert
Firstly, thanks! As for the combat maneuver, that is an option I didn't even consider, that seems like a good idea, I'll have to work on that...
Maybe there could be another feat to replace TWF as a prerequisite, something like:
Weapon-and-Shield Style
You are specialized in fighting with a...
I like this one, giving shield-users a baseline feat of their own, different from the more general two-weapon fighting.
Perhaps I would change the Dex prerequisite to 13, more affordable to average fighters than 15, and this would also be in line with the common conception of dual wielding being harder to pull off, a high dex character thing.
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I cannot for the life of me understand why a shield specialist would use his shield for offense instead of defense. Why are all the feats based around making attacks with a shield?? So you can go TWF and get off hand attacks with a weapon, or you can go sword 'n' board to get... off hand attacks with a shield??
Personally, I feel they should use the new CMB mechanic to allow parry type abilites (roll CMB + shield feat bonus + shield AC bonus => attack roll = parry) or some such, like extending the shield bonus to an adjacent ally, or other such DEFENSIVE abilites.
In a perfect (game) world, perhaps....
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I cannot for the life of me understand why a shield specialist would use his shield for offense instead of defense. Why are all the feats based around making attacks with a shield?? So you can go TWF and get off hand attacks with a weapon, or you can go sword 'n' board to get... off hand attacks with a shield??
Personally, I feel they should use the new CMB mechanic to allow parry type abilites (roll CMB + shield feat bonus + shield AC bonus => attack roll = parry) or some such, like extending the shield bonus to an adjacent ally, or other such DEFENSIVE abilites.
In a perfect (game) world, perhaps....
Well I think that the shield use should be improved for both aspects (not simultaneously); and a lot of the shield feat manuevers suggested could work as a combat manuever - with feats that improve it.
Nonetheless - the Deft Shield is not a plausible feat with the pre-reqs as they are - and in comparison to what TWF feats and 2-Handed fighting feats, there's really no good incentive to go the sword and board anymor - it is far inferior.
Robert