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I've got a whole host of questions with this module. While each individual encounter and characterization has a definite "cool factor", the overall module has many things that just don't add up.
The whole rationale behind the Queen's instigation of the plague doesn't make any sense. It's stated she wants to remove the Varisians, Shoanti, and poor. Yet this plague is non-discriminating, other than the fact that the poor always tend to suffer more, since they have no resources. It is an utterly chaotic and uncontrollable way to achieve her stated goal. There is no consideration made for stopping the plague from affecting everyone - in fact the Urgathoans imply that it should destroy the city, and have no plans of stopping at all. And that's another consideration altogether. The plague will doubtlessly cost the city immense amounts of money in terms of lost labor and trade, even if it is stopped at some point. This directly and seriously will impact the royal coffers, which are already drained. Considering the nautre of who the Queen is supposed to be influenced by (Kazavon), that also seems a very unlikely goal. Queen Ileosa is acting not like a scheming villain, but rather like a genocidal maniac - why?
The plan for the initial distribution of infection is also somewhat nonsensical. The blood veil is concocted in Korvosa itself, in the Urgathoan temple, and yet a mysterious ship is loaded somewhere else to sail to Korvosa for the express purpose to be sunk in the river, with the hope that at least some of its cargo washes up where it can be found in a timely manner. If the plague can be spread as simply as through infected coin, then spending huge amounts of money on creating a bunch of magic coffers, some of which may wash up on shore, is a huge waste of resources, effort, and unecessary exposure. Rather than providing a red herring, the plague ship is a clue, especially considering the papers knowingly left on it. There could be many other better plans for misdirecting the source of the contagion, while easily spreading coin throughout the city, in places and with people you actually want to target. In the module, there isn't even any way provided to follow up on the deposit of plague coins in Abadar's vaults - it's just something that has happened already.
The sudden appearance of the Gray Maidens is poorly justified. You cannot simply conscript all pretty women and la voila - there's a hardened, trained, loyal military force. Even assuming you can brainwash half of them, it makes no sense that the others aren't missed when they're imprisoned. Moreover, their equipment is seriously expensive, and takes time to make - where did it come from?
The Queen's Physicians are all petty rogues equipped with an expensive mask. Why? If their purpose is simply to observe and foster the spread of the plague, they are either hired help - which would not warrant a magical mask, or they are fanatical Urgathoans, which should have some appropriate stats.
The encounter with Vencarlo and Trinia is not really tied into the adventure in any way. I understand it is continuing the development of those characters, but if it is done here, it should have at least some purpose.
The vampire spawn encounter in Racker's Alley is also random, without any possibility provided of connecting these creatures to their source, or any added plot development.
The Lavender encounter seems incongruous to its effect. 700 people saved because you shut down a snake-oil salesmen? There've got to be dozens of such opportunists in a situation like this.
The Carowyn Manor encounter is a good example of a targeted attack, but unfortunately falls down on explaining how the attack was done. It implies that smokebombs with Vorel's Phage were used, but Ausio's description tells of crossbow bolts fired. So how did one intruder manage to fell every single person at that party? Nobody was able to defend themselves? Nobody could run away? That is just impossible without some serious other influence. If the smokebombs were used, what is their effect - it would have to be devastating? And does Jolistina still have 4, as described in her stats?
The Hospice of the Blessed Maidens was an Arkona warehouse. And so ...? This fact is thrown in there, seemingly important, but has no impact at all on the adventure.
The blood veil immunity of the Varisians is supposed to be a magical effect based on the influence of Vorel's wife on some Varisians, which is not necessarily by blood relationship, but rather through the Varisian "family". And yet the research notes are supposed to allow alchemists to find a cure based on this? That makes it mundane, and removes that whole interesting aspect.
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The Rationale does make sense, in a fashion. The poor, and foreigners are the ones who most likely die from the plague. They are the ones suffering the first infections, and the ones least likely to get a competent doctor, let alone a cure disease.
As for "genocidal mania", i think genocide is not even the primary reason behind this plot. As Edge of Anarchy had demonstrated, the city is anything but in love with their queen. Having a natural disaster to tighten control and enforce martial law is just making her job so much easier.
As for the ship, it makes no sense. This is intentional - it is a decoy of the Queen to serve as a plausible reason for the Blood Veil infection to the common people, and something to keep these pesky adventurers occupied rather than seeking a reason inside Korvosa all along.
As for the Grey Maidens, they are not conscripted off the streets, but rather come from the existing fighting forces of Korvosa. Sure, the timeline is a little thin for a full torture and brainwashing, but magic might make a long way short here. The uniforms are less of a problem IMHO. All Illeosa really needs is the mask, the rest can come from normal guard stocks.
As for lavender, i am unsure how the 700 came along, but snake oil of her quality is not easy to come by. Sure, i would probably have made it lower (100 or so), but maybe taking down someone so prominent instills a modicum of good sense into the people.
As for how to derive a cure from an innate magical effect, i am afraid my personal spellcraft knowledge is insufficient, as is my supernatural medicine rating. I'm willing to assume it to be possible, though.
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... The poor, and foreigners are the ones who most likely die from the plague. They are the ones suffering the first infections...
How so? The few boxes that wash up are randomly targeted. The coin in Abadar's vault will go to merchants and craftsmen - not the poor. And foreigners are actually less targeted.
It would make much more sense to initiate the plague by distributing infected coins (silver and/or copper) directly amongst the people to be targeted.
... Having a natural disaster to tighten control and enforce martial law is just making her job so much easier....
True, but it's the non-sensical details of the execution and the fundamental economics that I have issue with. If this is a master plan derived by an intelligent being, espcially one that craves power as wellas wealth, it needs work.
One idea is to change it so that there is an extra layer of deception. Perhaps the price for getting the poison used on the king was an agreement with the Urgathoan cult to inflict this upon the city, with the promise to target only the Queen's undesirables. And it all gets a little out of hand. In fact, the Queen may want to set up, even secretly double-cross, the Urgathoans so they are stopped, while she benefits from the chaos they caused.
Another idea provides a way for the Queen to avoid ruin of her own finances as Korvosa's economy is shattered. The Queen's Physicians and Gray Maidens could be given the power to seal houses, businesses, and workshops of those infected. Personal property is confiscated, ostensibly to stop the plague spreading, but any valuables actually end up on ships outward bound to be sold elsewhere to replenish the royal treasury.
... As for the ship, it makes no sense. This is intentional - it is a decoy of the Queen to serve as a plausible reason for the Blood Veil infection to the common people, ....
Where did it load and sail from? Using it to generate and stoke rumor is a fine idea, but when it is investigated by the PCs, those questions need to be clear - and should point somewhere that makes sense.
Most likely, it would have loaded in West Dock, sailed from Korvosa, then turned around, perhaps changing sails and/or name. A controlled undead could have guided it the last stretch upriver.
...and something to keep these pesky adventurers occupied rather than seeking a reason inside Korvosa all along. ....
If she were truly worried about and aware of the PCs, she'd do something directly. As you note, the ship is a ploy for another audience - the common folk.
...As for the Grey Maidens, they are not conscripted off the streets, but rather come from the existing fighting forces of Korvosa. Sure, the timeline is a little thin for a full torture and brainwashing, but magic might make a long way short here. The uniforms are less of a problem IMHO. All Illeosa really needs is the mask, the rest can come from normal guard stocks.....
Armoring a whole force of low level (2nd only!) fighters in masterwork full plate is excessive, and not something you just pull out of normal stocks.
Thin timeline indeed. I would suggest that a ship from Cheliax docks in Korvosa some time before. This ship brings, courtesy of the Arvanxi family, personal bodyguards for the new queen (the first Gray Maidens - the core of the new force), as well as her "personal physician" Dr Davaulus and some assistants, themselves all Urgathoans who are also transporting some presents for the local Urgathoa cult (the leukodaemons). This can all be done as part of her official coronation, and can be used to stage the Gray Maidens, as well as provide a timeline for the whole setup of this plan.
Let's say Dr Devaulus is the one who developed the poison for the king, and he arrives to collect his reward for it. This reward is the consecration of a new Temple to Urgathoa, in Korvosa, which requires that the city be subjected to a plague. The Queen agreed to this, in order to have a new ally in the city, as well as her other reasons. Potentially when she realizes the extent of chaos and damage, and especially if she realizes that the PCs are on the trail and needs to cover her own involvement, she betrays her new allies.
...As for how to derive a cure from an innate magical effect, i am afraid my personal spellcraft knowledge is insufficient, as is my supernatural medicine rating. I'm willing to assume it to be possible, though.
My issue is not that magic can't explain it. My issue is that a cool relationship between Varisians suddenly and easily gets distilled in a bottle. I would much prefer that the notes identify that in order for the cure to be effected on someone, they must somehow receive and accept some distinctly Varisian magic. In order to affect every being in Korvosa, divine aid might be needed - some god opposed to Urgathoa, but close to Varisians.
As for lavender, i am unsure how the 700 came along, but snake oil of her quality is not easy to come by. Sure, i would probably have made it lower (100 or so), but maybe taking down someone so prominent instills a modicum of good sense into the people.
Considering the adventure says if the PCs come in during the day the line stretches nearly 4 blocks and at night they still find about 50 people in line, it's obvious the fake cure affects much more than 100 people directly.
The key though is to remember indirect effects. Once stopped, there will also not be any new people who fall prey to her con job. But more important, each of the people who thought they were cured are going to be careful about not passing on the disease and others will be more careful around them than they would have if they were thinking they weren't infected anymore.
It really doesn't take much. If 100 people infect 2 people each, and each of those people infects 2 people, that's all it takes for to have 700 infected people. Obviously, very generalized, but it's just an example of the concept.
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Several of your questions and concerns, alas, are issues that, without having the entire six-part adventure path, you WON'T see the whole picture yet. That's part of the nature of the beast, alas. That said, let me see if I can address your concerns...
The whole rationale behind the Queen's instigation of the plague doesn't make any sense... Considering the nautre of who the Queen is supposed to be influenced by (Kazavon), that also seems a very unlikely goal. Queen Ileosa is acting not like a scheming villain, but rather like a genocidal maniac - why?
To a certain extent, she IS a genocidal maniac. But more to the point, her main goal is to cripple Korvosa with the plague. As mentioned in the adventure in the "Body Count" section on page 20, if the PCs do nothing, about 5,000 people die of the plague before it ends. This is more or less what the Queen wants; to kill off a little less than a third of the population. This leaves enough folk to still lord over, but also makes sure the city is crippled so it can't defend itself as easilly from her coming plans. She tasks Dr. Davalus and the plague doctors and the cult of Urgathoa with targeting certain areas, with making sure that those folk and areas are harder hit, but in the end doesn't care exactly WHO dies.
The plan for the initial distribution of infection is also somewhat nonsensical... Rather than providing a red herring, the plague ship is a clue, especially considering the papers knowingly left on it. There could be many other better plans for misdirecting the source of the contagion, while easily spreading coin throughout the city, in places and with people you actually want to target. In the module, there isn't even any way provided to follow up on the deposit of plague coins in Abadar's vaults - it's just something that has happened already.
Correct, it IS a red herring, and it IS a tactical error, to a certain extent, on the queen's part in that it creates a clue. Her goal was to give anyone who starts investigating where the plague came from somewhere to start that doesn't necessarily immediately lead them to her, that makes them waste their time investigating a sunken ship. The actual error was in including Rois Vindmel as the one to captain the ship rather than a more trustworthy Urgathoan who would ensure that no evidence to link the plague to the plague doctors or Dr. Davalus... but there's no DIRECT link on the ship to the Queen.
The sudden appearance of the Gray Maidens is poorly justified. You cannot simply conscript all pretty women and la voila - there's a hardened, trained, loyal military force. Even assuming you can brainwash half of them, it makes no sense that the others aren't missed when they're imprisoned. Moreover, their equipment is seriously expensive, and takes time to make - where did it come from?
Keep in mind that while the text introduces the gray maidens suddenly... that doesn't mean that they just pop up in the game world then. We have no way to know how long GMs will take between adventures, or even DURING adventures, but the basic assumption is that there's at least a week or so of down time between them. It's unfortunately not clear enough in the text that Queen Ileosa's been working on developing the Gray Maidens secretly for some time; she actually started working on them with Sabina before the King died, and spends a fair amount of the time in "Edge of Anarchy" getting the gray maidens trained up. Also; she's a bard, and gaining levels (thanks to the fangs of Kazavon) VERY fast. She's got a LOT of mind-control, dominatrix type stuff going on with the gray maidens behind the scenes, but it's not totally necessary to detail all of the steps that happen behind the scenes for them. As for where their equipment comes from? The queen is very rich, since she's got a lot of money now that she's in charge of the city treasury. But basically... I think you can solve this problem simply by making sure that when/if you run the campaign, make sure to not rush it. The adventures are designed so that they're not on a strict time table, after all. Honestly, if you wanted to, each one could represent a year's game time if you wanted to REALLY stretch things out...
The Queen's Physicians are all petty rogues equipped with an expensive mask. Why? If their purpose is simply to observe and foster the spread of the plague, they are either hired help - which would not warrant a magical mask, or they are fanatical Urgathoans, which should have some appropriate stats.
Not all fanatical Urgathoans are high level. In fact, most aren't. They have expensive masks to ensure that they don't get sick. And again... the queen has a lot of money to pass around. Of course, things break down if you start charting and graphing resources and time required to make things... but again, let me remind you that the adventure isn't on a strict timeline, so if you DO go through and graph out how long it would take Ileosa to fund this whole thing... that gives you a pretty exact timeline to hang the adventures on if you want.
The encounter with Vencarlo and Trinia is not really tied into the adventure in any way. I understand it is continuing the development of those characters, but if it is done here, it should have at least some purpose.
It's tied to the CAMPAIGN, not the adventure. It has a purpose, but you won't see that until you have all of the adventrues. If you're running the adventure on it's own, you can feel free to omit it. Actaully... now that I think on it... it DOES have a purpose. It gives the PCs something to do after they visit Brienna, which accomplishes two goals. First, it serves a little bit as a red herring to distract them from the strange sickness the kid had by, perhpas, making them think that the adventure's plot might be going in another direction. Second, it introduces some stuff that can happen to stretch out the passage of time a little bit to give blood veil a chance to spread. As written, the PCs shouldn't suspect plague or biological warfare when they start the adventure and save Brienna; there's no evidence of such at all, really. It's only a few days or a week later that they should start to make that connection when they see the sickness is spreading. If you don't wanna run the Trinia scene, you should instead do some other short side adventure or let the PCs pass a few days or a week in time building magic items or interacting with NPCs or something.
The vampire spawn encounter in Racker's Alley is also random, without any possibility provided of connecting these creatures to their source, or any added plot development.
It's not random. The vampire spawn came to Korvosa with Ramoska. It's a mood-building encounter. It's purpose isn't to advance the plot, but to give the GM an opportunity to not only let the PCs see how things are starting to go bad, but also to foreshadow the presence of a stronger vampire later in the adventure.
The Lavender encounter seems incongruous to its effect. 700 people saved because you shut down a snake-oil salesmen? There've got to be dozens of such opportunists in a situation like this.
If you want to add in additional opportunists like this for the PCs to take out, go for it! Perhaps there are 7, and each one saves 100 people. That'll start feeling a little repetitive in play, though, I suspect. Much better to just do ONE encounter, and if the PCs assume that there are other similar scams going on... fine. But to be blunt, pulling off this scam isn't something that just anyone can do, and the scale with which it's being pulled off is significant as well. There may be others doing this, but Lavender did it first. Anyway, the idea is that if you shut down Lavender, not only do you save the dozens of folk who were sick and weren't getting cured, you also save the HUNDREDS of people these dozens would interact with while still sick and thus spread the plague further. If they realize that Lavender isn't helping, they'll either seek aid elsewhere or continue to avoid too much contact because they'll realize they're still sick, which in the long run, reduces the number of deaths.
The Carowyn Manor encounter is a good example of a targeted attack, but unfortunately falls down on explaining how the attack was done. It implies that smokebombs with Vorel's Phage were used, but Ausio's description tells of crossbow bolts fired. So how did one intruder manage to fell every single person at that party? Nobody was able to defend themselves? Nobody could run away? That is just impossible without some serious other influence. If the smokebombs were used, what is their effect - it would have to be devastating? And does Jolistina still have 4, as described in her stats?
The smoke-bomb part was an error; one version of the early draft had her using diseased smoke bombs but we didn't have the space to devote to a half-page description of how these complicated things worked, so we cut them and replaced them with her crossbow method of spreading the sickness. We just missed editing out all of the mentions of smoke bombs, unfortunately, including the mention of them in her stats. THAT part's an editing error, alas. As for how she managed to drop everyone at the party? She's a relatively high level character, and everyone at the party was low level. They were PROBABLY 80 to 90% fist level or second level characters. When she first started taking out guests, she did so by stealth; striking characters when they were alone or in pairs and killing them super easily (her sneak attacks pretty much guarantee that she could kill most everyone in the party with one shot). She was fast and efficient. Each one she killed added a new ally in the form of a zombie. She also locked doors and windows and otherwise made it difficult for folk to flee once people started figuring out what was going on. It's really not THAT tough for an 8th level rogue/sorcerer to kill a mansion full of drunk low level nobles.
The Hospice of the Blessed Maidens was an Arkona warehouse. And so ...? This fact is thrown in there, seemingly important, but has no impact at all on the adventure.
This again is foreshadowing events to come. There were Arkona elements in the first adventure as well (at All the World's Meat). These elements may never be discovered by the PCs, but they're CERTAINLY there to foreshadow the HEAVY presence of the Arkona family in the third adventure to the GM. It's important to the overall campaign, and even if ONLY the GM reads it and sees it... that's fine with me. It certainly doesn't take up so much room that cutting it would have made a difference.
The blood veil immunity of the Varisians is supposed to be a magical effect based on the influence of Vorel's wife on some Varisians, which is not necessarily by blood relationship, but rather through the Varisian "family". And yet the research notes are supposed to allow alchemists to find a cure based on this? That makes it mundane, and removes that whole interesting aspect.
No; the research notes contain a LOT more information on blood veil, and none of them mention anything about the spiritual element, really. None of the disease crafters figured that part out. When the PCs recover the notes, there's a trove of blood veil info in there for them and their allies to work on to develop a cure beyond the fact that there's a spiritual element to the whole thing.
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I'll try to address your points in turn:
If you have money, you can afford to stay at home, which should, at least, offer a circumstance bonus to your saves. Consequently, if you are poor, you live in close proximity with other infected, increasing exposure by quite a bit. Any disease targets the poor above the wealthy.
As for the finances, i doubt Illeosa really cares. She strikes me more like the petty tyrant than the scheming mastermind. And seriously - people have killed thousands of their own for their pride before. I have no problem with her being that extreme.
IIRC, the ship signalled "Ship under Quarantine" before it sunk - so it is a likely culprit.
Korvosa can affort a spendthrift king, and a company riding hippogryphs. I have no problem with them outfitting a force of a few hundred with mwk Plate. It is honestly not that expensive, or rare. The downtime between Edge of Anarchy and 7 Days is fluid - no need for one to follow very tightly on each other. If you need 3 months for the Grey Maidens, take that long.
Yet more evidence that shows - to me - the lunacy (as well as doing one's players a disservice) of trying to run an AP without all the components available.
Just 'IMO', of course. (I'd say "I'm glad it works for some people", but clearly...) :D
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Creative Director
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Yet more evidence that shows - to me - the lunacy (as well as doing one's players a disservice) of trying to run an AP without all the components available.
Just 'IMO', of course. (I'd say "I'm glad it works for some people", but clearly...) :D
The thing is... running an Adventure Path as the volumes come out works fine, as long as you don't want to get in there and start adjusting, tinkering, and changing things. If you're running the adventures as written it should go smoothly.
That said... I don't know any GM who doesn't enjoy the tinkering aspect of the game! :)
I'll try to address your points in turn:
If you have money, you can afford to stay at home, which should, at least, offer a circumstance bonus to your saves. Consequently, if you are poor, you live in close proximity with other infected, increasing exposure by quite a bit. Any disease targets the poor above the wealthy.
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IIRC, the ship signalled "Ship under Quarantine" before it sunk - so it is a likely culprit.
two facets I would like to adress.
For one, rich people are usually not handling their money and purchases on their wn, but rather have their servants do it - the shopping, paying labour etc. Besides, poor people usually hoard money less, because tehy immerdiately have to spend it after it is acquired. The poor can't allow to have money sit around in a chest under the floorboards, simply because they lack the funds to spend instead. so small denomination coins change hands repatedly and fast. Especially when found as a "windfall" - extra money provided by luck/fortune/the gods.
what I do have problems with is the plague ship, whih is totally ludcruous both in conception and execution, sorry to say.
First off, wooden ships are notoriously hard to sink (whatever else Hollywood might want to tell you ) , unless heavily loaded with non-floating cargo. Usually they "sink" by capsizing and/or breaking apart -except when transporting heavy ballast, naval guns or similar dense and weighty objects pulling the flooded remains to the bottom..... Second, the ship sailing into the harbour at night, unchallenged and without any navigational problems, even navigating a turn in the harbour estuary..... No collisons with anything floating or ships anchored out in the roads ? No fishermen being close by hauling nets or traps at night ?
If this is a busy sea-harbour, does anyone really believe all the ships are tied up to the mucky quays (ready to be robbed/assaulted by gangs of rogues and opportunistic thieves ) and not swaying out in the river behind their anchorcables ?
No challenges by patrol craft noting the quarantine-signals ? And it then being sunk with strikes from siege-engines hurled stones (!) .... fired at a dark object at night in a dark and crowded harbour..... ? Precision bombing into a crowded area versus a moving target - folks, this is not the age of laser-guided precision bombs. And I guess the inncoent merchants who get their ships blown to pieces by a "missed shot" are really no concern to the city...
If this was a plague ship, people would go for it with incendiaries as the first thing, making sure, nay certain to burn the whole thing to ash and cinders, and all aboard as well. This being a city with an "airforce" of hippogriff mounted guards, where are the firebombs hurled into the ship from above by the mobile airborne guards ?
Where are - btw - the corpses of the crew floating about in the harbour after the incident - or fished out of the water by fishermen plying the estuary ? Also, where are the flotsam-hunting crowds and entrepeneurical rogues trying to "harvest" the sunken cargo or even guys from the harbourmaster's office making sure the wreck does not become a navigational hazard ?? Or the patrols by city guards (who are ignorant of the true purpose of the vessel ) making certain that no infected crewmen swim ashore ?
Sorry to say, that whole piece of the adventure is very badly thought through (I am not even starting on the wreck itself which is...... well it has its comic value,but little else beside of practical worth to a GM) , besides being entirely anti-climatic since one of the showcase pieces of the adventure happens largely off-screen for the PCs. Guess these pieces not getting actually playtested (do they ?) means some very rough edges remain on the finished product - especially around the linkages of the installments.
And this is not maritime obsession on my part, that is simply landlubbers common sense and much practised historical reality.And after steal..., ahem quoting heaviyl from "the Lies of Locke Lamora" in installment one (and methinks in this one too ) , one might take a hint and remember how "plague ships" were dealt with there...
Oh, as for the Gray Maidens, some foreshadowing in "Edge of Anarchy" might have helped (say by perhaps a friendly guardswoman contact, who speaks of her chance of a promotion to "that elite unit" and then suddenly disappears from sight for some weeks . and of course some appearances at some state function such as the funeral and perhaps the execution, as part of the Queen's bodyguard ?)
Sorry to say, the second part aof the AP only goes up to a 3,5/5 mostly because of the severe and farreaching re-working to be done to make some of the stuff even remotely feasible. Other parts of it take the cake, but it is a pretty mixed bag of tricks.
So it is your opinion that the Queen couldn't manage to issue orders that ensure this goes down exactly like she wanted it to without any evidence leading back to her directly?
I think you misunderestimate the Queen.
The Titanic was unsinkable too.
The idea is that the ship was sunk, did you really want them to spend space in the issue talking about how hard it is to sink wooden ships? Clearly you already know how that goes, so it would have been redundant, and you'd likely have been posting about how they wasted space or didn't exactly illustrate the intricacies of ballast correctly...
If it isn't you saying there should have been some foreshadowing of the Grey Maidens in Edge it'd be someone else asking why they wasted space in Edge talking about something that didn't even show up until Seven...
The idea is to have all 6 issues prior to running the game, and then you can do whatever foreshadowing you'd like to do.
I'll have to apologize for my acerbic response, and I really shouldn't take all of the irritation I feel when I read these negative critical posts out just on you, but I don't understand the negativity at all.
I too have questions about elements of Korvosa, or the Pathfinder issues, but do you really need to be so negative when you ask for HELP?
You know, I really don't find it ludicrous at all myself.
The ship had to have ballast to be seaworthy since it wasn't carrying any significant cargo to keep it from being top-heavy.
No one in their right mind would anchor their ships or be fishing in the middle of the river in the middle of the night.
The real "harbor" is past the north bridge, which they specifically fired on the ship before it passed, and by its location, they also waited until it was past the docks of Old Korvosa as well. In fact, the ship was in the middle of the deepest part of the river; really, the most logical place to fire on the ship.
The ship was fired at "again and again;" it wasn't like a single hit by itself took it out. The 10 foot hole at the waterline was just the final nail in the coffin.
And as far as actually hitting it, besides firing multiple shots, the ship was most likely again in the perfect position as it would have been backlit to anyone on the wall from the lights of Trail's End (which is an advantage an aerial attacker wouldn't have if someone was willing to fly hippogriffs at night while carrying explosives).
And in waters with jigsaw sharks and reefclaws, who again in their right mind (PCs excluded) is going to go to the effort to dive to the middle of the river to search a black-sailed "ghost ship" flying a quarantine lamp, keeping in mind that "ghost ship" isn't a superstition but a very real possibility in this world. And it's pretty clear what happened to the crazy people who may have tried.
I think the presumptions of a "dark crowded harbor" and other things might lead to such a conclusion, but without them, it seems very logical. At least to me.
First of all - thanks for the suggestions and clarifications, especially the extensive answer from James. It's very much appreciated!
I still think many of the issues raised need work for consistency and flow, but that's ok. Workarounds can always be found. I value the ideas that are generated in this forum when these difficulties are discussed. It helps avoid tripping over them when running the game.
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A thought that just occurred to me...
The plaguedoctor's masks... they provide immunity to a particular disease (in this case, blood veil). How do they affect an already-infected person who dons the mask AFTER contracting blood veil?
I assume that they DO NOT cure the disease. At the most, perhaps they halt the further spread of the disease until the mask is removed. Otherwise, all the PC's have to do to halt the spread of the disease is round up and incapacitate enough Queen's Physicians, steal their masks, and start an assembly-line "vaccination station". Step right up and be healed. Wear this funny hat, and you'll be cured forever. Hallelujah!
Even with this restriction, it seems likely that the PC's may want to masquerade as Queen's Physicians (despite the rather stiff penalty), simply so as not to contract the disease themselves.
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I assume that they DO NOT cure the disease. At the most, perhaps they halt the further spread of the disease until the mask is removed.
I am planning on ruling it the opposite... that it is the outside 'layer' that is enchanted, so wearing it with the plague makes it no longer able to protect future wearers - as condensation from their breath landing on the inside padding layer
You know, I really don't find it ludicrous at all myself.
The ship had to have ballast to be seaworthy since it wasn't carrying any significant cargo to keep it from being top-heavy.
No one in their right mind would anchor their ships or be fishing in the middle of the river in the middle of the night.
The real "harbor" is past the north bridge, which they specifically fired on the ship before it passed, and by its location, they also waited until it was past the docks of Old Korvosa as well. In fact, the ship was in the middle of the deepest part of the river; really, the most logical place to fire on the ship.
The ship was fired at "again and again;" it wasn't like a single hit by itself took it out. The 10 foot hole at the waterline was just the final nail in the coffin.
And as far as actually hitting it, besides firing multiple shots, the ship was most likely again in the perfect position as it would have been backlit to anyone on the wall from the lights of Trail's End (which is an advantage an aerial attacker wouldn't have if someone was willing to fly hippogriffs at night while carrying explosives).
And in waters with jigsaw sharks and reefclaws, who again in their right mind (PCs excluded) is going to go to the effort to dive to the middle of the river to search a black-sailed "ghost ship" flying a quarantine lamp, keeping in mind that "ghost ship" isn't a superstition but a very real possibility in this world. And it's pretty clear what happened to the crazy people who may have tried.
I think the presumptions of a "dark crowded harbor" and other things might lead to such a conclusion, but without them, it seems very logical. At least to me.
Presumptions ? ^^
Oh, well, poor me for actually looking up all this stuff in real life history - no big hassle since its been one of my hobbies for the last thirty years, but accidentaly this does mean I actually know what I am posting about. Things _were_ crowded and what we regard as "common sense" is anything but - check the harbour of the town of London - with ships anchoring haphazardly smack in the middle of the Thames ( despite the tremendous inconvenience of strong tides) , especially around the "Pool" area and the outer anchoring ground of Hampton Roads. Right into the 19th century... Where do you think the tradition/rule of anchoring lights does harken from ?
Or the harbour of Malta, Naples, Genua, Venice, Istanbul/Constantinople, Goa, Malacca etc etc etc . Or the harbour of New York right up into the 19th century, to bring the problem to your home's shores. It was actually easier and more desirable to unload ships not tied up to quays, since you could pull barges to their sides and unload the cargo right into them - much of which would go upriver or to other ships anyway , and not having to worry about dockside gangs trying to sneak aboard and rob you. It is also much more difficult to actually sail a sailing ship of medium size and up to a dead stop beside a quay and even more so to safely sail away from it - perhaps check up some books about historic seamanship, will you ?
Oh and nightime coastal fishing is very much happening still, all over the globe, including the US.
Also, if napoleonic age frigates and ships of the line did not readily sink after having been pummeled and smashed to splinters for hours by broadsides of canonballs smashing them above and below the waterline, even while heavily loaded with tons of shot, ballast and guns weighing tons each and in heavy weather to boot, then I guess medieval brigs will not do either. At least not easily and within seconds/minutes...This is one of the (many) reasons why there actually are much less wrecks dotting the bottom of the sea these days than the number of historic ship-wrecks might suggest - only vessels with a cargo that dragged them down made it to the bottom in big pieces, the others were smashed to splinters by waves, on coastal rocks or reefs.... while we are at it, why doesn't the unattached bow float up again - no cargo or ballast there (if you know anything aboout trimming a ship, that is ) after all ?
As for hitting anything with a catapult or trebuchet ? Something that is not a city wall or castle ? At night ? Something that is actually _moving_ so you have to correct each and every shot ? through a crowded (even if that seems unimaginable to you ) area ?
That is something very hard to do with a direct-fire weapon such as a naval fortification gun at several hundred yards, and even more so with ballistic-curve weapon such as a catapult... especially if you loose depth perception due to darkness... and care about not hitting innocent bystanders
Plundering the wreck....danger has never actually kept the poor and desperate from trying to go for readily available (even if only suspected) wealth. And of the later, Korvosa actually seems to have quite a lot of. Many of them with access to the water and small craft, dredging lines, anchors, nets and probably even salvaging equipment.... besides nobody knows something actually inhabits the wreck... and I guess the "inhabitant" did not move in five minutes after it sinkling either, right ?
And IF some of those treasure/flotsam hunters get snatched by the "inhabitant", now, can you imagine the upcry and rumours floating around if that happened ?
As for airborne attacks - lucky them, as Hippogriffs as magical beasts have low-light vision ( MM-III, p 216 ) .... and if the guards on the fortress ramparts can spot a quarantine light at several hundred yards (especially in front of the clutter of lights from trail's End ), then a poor Hippogriff should face little difficulty.
Besides, I guess, carrying several bottles of oil and a fuse to light them with is nothing nerve-wracking to the brave men and women mounting a carnivorous beast and riding through the sky with it as part of their everyday duties ?
As for "ghost ship"... right, ghost ships that get sunk by rocks hurled from the fortress' catapults. Impressive... Now, eve while teh average korvosion might agree that theremight be ghost ships out there somewhere, i consider them savvy enough to guess that a ship which gets sunk afterbeeing struck by big lumps of stone cannot really be all that....
before you mistakenly call something "presumptions", please take the care to broaden your horizons and be knowledable on the subject debated. Thank you.
As for the sequence - one of the weaker spots of the installment as already stated. But nothing you could not work around. Just shoddy work (sorry to say ) on part of the author.
Even with this restriction, it seems likely that the PC's may want to masquerade as Queen's Physicians (despite the rather stiff penalty), simply so as not to contract the disease themselves.
There being only the slight deterrent of it being a death-sentence offense. dpending on the outlook of your players/characters, that might be a hassle....
Of course, there will always be the humonguous temptation to apply 20th century knowledge about pathogenic vectors and counter measures ( such as hygiene etc. ) to player characters' actions, if only subconsciously.
I am actually considering it being a magical-suffused disease, with some strange, non-standart wector, such as ontamination of a odies karmic field or aura.... interlocation of which might heightend the chance of actual transmission. It feeling weird and "unnatural" should really make the players' hairs stand on edge with fright.
The idea is to have all 6 issues prior to running the game, and then you can do whatever foreshadowing you'd like to do.I'll have to apologize for my acerbic response, and I really shouldn't take all of the irritation I feel when I read these negative critical posts out just on you, but I don't understand the negativity at all.
I too have questions about elements of Korvosa, or the Pathfinder issues, but do you really need to be so negative when you ask for HELP?
for one, that is constructive criticism. Some parts of the CotCT Ap are brilliant, some are not. And these can/need to be pointed out, especially if you have players who look at scenes (especially in a an urban, intrique-riddled camapaign ) and ask "can this really have happened that way".
If I write a scene on a more or less complex matter, I do take care to inform myself at least about the rough parameters and RL-analogies involved. A book or two, or some internet research might have helped avoiding several pitfalls.
And I put myself into the potential players boots and ask myself "does this look like an acceptable explanation ?". Which in this case, it doesn't... not even remotely.
There were deeply broken parts in AoW, SCAP and STAP - for whatever reasons. WoD in the STAP stands out especially in my mind ( with its tyrannical ramming down ruinous decisions down characters' throats instead of feasible plot design) . Still the APs were masterpieces and ground-breaking in their scope and style. But even great things may have inferior facets and parts. Does one have to be a loyal fanboy and keep mum about them ?
The same holds true for several of the long debates about many maritime aspects of SWW. And if criticism is called for - as James Jacobs explicitly does - I for one will add what aid I can offer. Many players are history buffs, more than I care to count (at least over here in Europe) . Many have read the books the authors draw upon for inspiration. And armed with the knowledge/evaluations gained from these sources, they will ask questions which will jeopardize the plot "as written". Because the gaps in logic and setup neither concern esoteric knowledge nor "hard to imagine" improbable situations. Which wil leave an unsupecting GM with the explanatory pants around his ankles.
And if I showed my players where the ship was presumably sunk, and considering the knowledge of Korvosa they will have acquired by that point of the campaign, they will most certainly go "no way this can have happened" and "this is a deliberate setup". Which makes the whole "bad fortune" plot of the plague ship go up in smoke, and tell the players that someone very high up in the city is trying something nefarious. I doubt that is what was intended.
And basically, things could have been done much easier, which much more character involvement (such as witnessing the shipwreck, or even helping the guard to fend off the "diseased" crew struggling ashore..,. or finding one of the corpses... or witnessing the guards driving off treasure hunters and looters ) and more logically with only a little more forethought upon writing
Have the ship blow up/burn down out at the moorings, while under quarantine.... Or even better, have it drift ashore, with some disease ridden corpses lying about. Have it founder on a coastal reef just within sight of the city... and have the characters involved in a rescue attempt only to witness disease ravaged corpses drfiting towards them...
Would that make the whole thing any less effective a red herring by the BBEG ? Besides far more feasible to pull off ? Why not start the whole thing with the corpses of some mysterious travellers being found dead in their beds at an Inn ?
Or spread some of the contaminated coin througout harbourside taverns with the help of one of the physicians masks and a Disguise Self spell or a Hat of Disguise - perhaps even the magically disguised Nosferatu, who as an undead is immune to infection anyway - or someone dominated by him, then silently disposed off laters ? Or someone wearing a periapt of protection from disease ? Drop some of the coins to beggars, at temple collections or even into fountains for "Good Luck"... have a "travelling merchants'" cart turn over toppling a chest of coin into a busy street.... how much of that will instantly disappear into lucky finders' pockets ?
Yeah, as written , it is a movie reference, but still..... Style must not hamper quality - YMMV.
This way we get a very cinematic scene, deeply illogical and flawed which the players unfortunately do not even get to witness anyway ! I fail to see the ingame fun in that
Presumptions ? ^^
Oh, well, poor me for actually looking up all this stuff in real life history - no big hassle since its been one of my hobbies for the last thirty years, but accidentaly this does mean I actually know what I am posting about. Things _were_ crowded and what we regard as...
before you mistakenly call something "presumptions", please take the care to broaden your horizons and be knowledable on the subject debated. Thank you.
Presumption: inference as to the existence or truth of a fact not certainly known that is drawn from the known or proved existence of some other fact
By your own statements, the support for what Korvosa's harbor is like is inferred from "real life history," not referenced from any actual statements from the book.
That is a presumption, and it is not a mistake to call it such.
If the word was taken with the connotation that such an inference was "arrogant," then I apologize, as that was not the intent.
I was merely pointing out that there was no direct reference supporting some conclusions, that it was based off inference from "real life history" as you say.
Now, personally, I think an inference based off "real life history" has to take into consideration significant comparison issues when dealing with a fantasy world. The Thames (and any other terrestial body of water) didn't have reefclaws or devilfish waiting below the water hoping (consciously hoping) to filet a fisherman. Real world treasure seekers would think the "missing" bodies were just missing, and not that it is more likely that they became evil undead (just like those in the city's cemetary) waiting to kill the living. And a real world trebuchet is never going to be fired by a guy who can cast a 1st level True Strike for +20 to hit and ignoring concealment.
And as to why the bow doesn't float up? I would think because that's where the anchor or anchors are (and also most likely the reason it landed nose first).
Anyway, I'm just saying I can find logical reasons for these situations even if the specific reasons aren't detailed in the book. The reasons may not be based on "real world history," but I don't think that makes them any less valid since the discussion isn't about the "real world."
If such historical accuracy in a fantasy setting is important to a particular group, then I'd think such tweaks would be expected. After all, no amount of research on the internet is going to keep up with a thirty year devotion to the subject.
The idea is to have all 6 issues prior to running the game, and then you can do whatever foreshadowing you'd like to do.I'll have to apologize for my acerbic response, and I really shouldn't take all of the irritation I feel when I read these negative critical posts out just on you, but I don't understand the negativity at all.
I too have questions about elements of Korvosa, or the Pathfinder issues, but do you really need to be so negative when you ask for HELP?
for one, that is constructive criticism. Some parts of the CotCT Ap are brilliant, some are not. And these can/need to be pointed out, especially if you have players who look at scenes (especially in a an urban, intrique-riddled camapaign ) and ask "can this really have happened that way".
If I write a scene on a more or less complex matter, I do take care to inform myself at least about the rough parameters and RL-analogies involved. A book or two, or some internet research might have helped avoiding several pitfalls.
And I put myself into the potential players boots and ask myself "does this look like an acceptable explanation ?". Which in this case, it doesn't... not even remotely.There were deeply broken parts in AoW, SCAP and STAP - for whatever reasons. WoD in the STAP stands out especially in my mind ( with its tyrannical ramming down ruinous decisions down characters' throats instead of feasible plot design) . Still the APs were masterpieces and ground-breaking in their scope and style. But even great things may have inferior facets and parts. Does one have to be a loyal fanboy and keep mum about them ?
The same holds true for several of the long debates about many maritime aspects of SWW. And if criticism is called for - as James Jacobs explicitly does - I for one will add what aid I can offer. Many players are history buffs, more than I care to count (at least over here in Europe) . Many have read the books the authors draw upon for inspiration. And armed with the knowledge/evaluations gained...
Again, you are overlooking things like the real-life limit to the amount of space they can give to explaining how/why the ship sunk. The important thing is that the ship sunk. If you're running a group of medieval nautical experts through the game then you are going to have a lot of work cut out for you to explain this element of the story in a way that won't leave them suspicious.
I'm fairly certain this Pathfinder was not written with medieval nautical experts in mind. It was written to provide a useful outline for an adventure path to as many people as possible that still requires those who run it to craft the outline to meet the needs of their particular group.
Constructive criticism in my experience does not involve calling people or their work "luducrous" [sic] or "badly thought through".
I, for one, can think of explanations for the issues you suggest as problematic. I know exactly how I will handle this should it come up. I am sure that if you were to continue to think about it rather than stopping once you've decided that it is impossible in a world of magic and mystery you would come up with acceptable alternatives as well.
However, none of that is really important. The important part is that the ship is sunk, in the harbor, and provides clues even though it is a red herring. However you need to adapt that to fit into your personal gaming group that clearly has no problem with people riding around on Hippogriffs, magic masks of disease protection, fireballs summoned from fingertips, undead walking amongst the populace, elves, dwarves, dinosaurs, and fairies... cannot possibly be accounted for by the authors/editors of this adventure path.
Finally, it is not so much that I object to your questions. Simply asking "How does a merchant vessel navigate an otherwise busy harbor without being seen or causing an uproar?" is a valid question. Pontificating about how flawed everyone involved is for not accounting for minutiae that have little to do with progressing the story is obnoxious. Change your approach, and you'll hear no more from me. Expecting the authors to write specifically for your group and to provide assurances that overcome your group's own self-professed meta-gaming nature is bound to lead to disappointment. How you express that disappointment (insofar as I have seen) is bound to lead to negative reaction. One does not have to be a fanboy at all, but one should consider civility as a matter of course.
@nogerber
Well, if I write a scene using a location/setting analogous to real-history locations or setups, I basically have two choices.
Either the author plays along with the way things were done historically and are anchored in our minds, if at least iconically, saving himself a lot of work depicting the nw iconmography or one changes things, and then actually spends some time explaining and describing the changes made and their necessity
What one cannot do is rely on false iconics and use them without a shred of explanation if normal people will envision these icons differently. Like , say castles, weaponry, armour and *gasp* ships and harbours.
Or simply not do some, research - if only googling up the subject - if having no concrete idea about it.
Everyone (at least in our hobby) has a mental image on just how a medieval ship looked like. Likewise we have images in ourheads (put there by Hollwood and whoever else - less often the Discovery channel and similar venues ) of how locations appear, things look and what was possible, technically. And "crowded medieval harbours" ( as well as post-medieval ones) have been extensively shown to us in the last few years - say in "Kingdom of Heaven" "Restoration", "1492" the "PotC" franchise, not to mention older flicks like most pirate movies.
That's where gamers (us) draw their imaginary 'canvas' from, and in front of which we then have our imagination run rampant. The same holds true for popular and persistent "naval" setting like the 'Freeport' series...
It's not "historic-correctness obsession", it's just the way things have been painted/depicted the last few decades
If you don't believe me ,try this : if one imagines a heavily armoured warrior with a sword in hand, bravely facing the enemy
- we automatically imagine somone like a knight, and _not_ a samurai or chinese/korean heavy infantrist or a warrior from say India or Perisa. Nor say, a greek hoplite... or a russian bojar... Because it is the imagery we are used to and have grown up with...
The same goes for castles, temples, wizard's towers and..... yes, harbours.
Unless of course you are entirely free of any previous imagery - and how likely is that ? Hard for me to imagine, living in a region with an extensive history (and not even one on the level of Italy, Greece; Egypt or the Middle East) and having a hobby basically mandating some interest in history...
But in "Seven Days" the author simply takes a(n iconic) setting and breaks/alters it for neither a good and obvious reason nor with any explanation.
And that WILL raise questions from the players, at least all those not considering ignorance as bliss. Nothing will drive campaign as surely off course as a key-scene that appears implausible or as if the GM is obviously hiding important explanations - which the players/characters are then bound to discover.
Because players will always remember how those things jarred, and that will either kill the suspension of disbelief, or cause the nagging feeling that they made a major mistake and missed something obvious. The "plague ship" scene - as written will cause just that. At least with anyone I have been playing with the last two decades. YMMV
Where precisely are the trebuchets firing at the brig located anyway - there is no fortress in old Korvosa or even located in such a way as even to fire at the wrecksite without impairment ?
Why is there "thunder" when they are firing (all this taken from the flavour text of the scene ) - a trebuchet is basically a large see-saw, so what is causing the thunderous noise ? Why is the brig burning when goin g down, after all having been struck by stones....( Are these being flung over a large part of a ignitable city from the citadel ?). What is the common sense inreleasing floating boxes into the estuary of a major river flowing seaward... why should these boxes even drift ashore within the city proper, with a current running twoards the open ocean or not getting sucked out to sea by the tides ?
The claim that a scene or course of action (like the corpse-dump mission mentioned above ) makes sense or is valid does _not_ actually establish it being sensible or valid at all. The sense actually has to be there ! Anyone knows that about political claims or advertisments - but it holds true for everything in life, unfortunately.
Plus, W. Schneider makes a - to my mind rather severe - blunder in not involving the characters in that kick-off key scene, but having them hear of it second-hand.
The same holds true to a lesser degree to the masquerade-massacre, which is a wonderfully horrific setup, that likly only the GM will ever see and appreciate. But - is a good adventure merely written for the GM to chuckle alone or for the entire group to enjoy and rovide lasting images and memories ?
In all honesty let's close this debate - at least I will - since methinks, the points to be critical have been mentioned and pointed out to all sides concerned, even if there is disagreement whether and to what degree they are problematic.
The vampire spawn encounter in Racker's Alley is also random, without any possibility provided of connecting these creatures to their source, or any added plot development.
It's not random. The vampire spawn came to Korvosa with Ramoska. It's a mood-building encounter. It's purpose isn't to advance the plot, but to give the GM an opportunity to not only let the PCs see how things are starting to go bad, but also to foreshadow the presence of a stronger vampire later in the adventure.
Just played through this encounter last session:
It provided a very frightful 'red-herring' for my group. Only a day before, the group was introduced to the Queen's Physicians. Their very menacing description was:"These men wear cowled robes of oily-looking leather, supple gloves, and wide black hats...Each of them wears a dark-goggled mask tapering to a pointed beak."
So when they encountered the vampire spawn, the group put "2-and-2 together" and thought all the physicians were vampires - their completely covered uniforms allowed them to walk outside during the day!!!!
The whole rationale behind the Queen's instigation of the plague doesn't make any sense. It's stated she wants to remove the Varisians, Shoanti, and poor. Yet this plague is non-discriminating, other than the fact that the poor always tend to suffer more, since they have no resources. It is an utterly chaotic and uncontrollable way to achieve her stated goal. There is no consideration made for stopping the plague from affecting everyone - in fact the Urgathoans imply that it should destroy the city, and have no plans of stopping at all. And that's another consideration altogether. The plague will doubtlessly cost the city immense amounts of money in terms of lost labor and trade, even if it is stopped at some point. This directly and seriously will impact the royal coffers, which are already drained. Considering the nautre of who the Queen is supposed to be influenced by (Kazavon), that also seems a very unlikely goal. Queen Ileosa is acting not like a scheming villain, but rather like a genocidal maniac - why?
My campaign timed the plague's eruption to coincide with Taxfest, the Abadar-sponsored holiday. I tweaked the nature of the holiday a bit, and changed the physical design of Abadar's temple (see below). The result was an annual city-sanctioned "tax the rich, pay the poor" event, with Korvosa's disenfranchised (including most Varisians and Shoanti) coming to the temple to collect handouts.
This altruistic event was the perfect time for Ileosa (who is both a scheming villain AND a genocidal maniac) to use coinage to infect the city with blood veil.
I wanted my party to end up at the temple of Abadar, so I dropped a couple more clues to that effect. The vampire spawn were previously four of Korvosa's finest burglars, hired by the Urgathoans to break into the temple and plant something inside (again, see below). After their inception, they were bitten by Ramoska. The fifth thief was one of the NPCs at Lavender; he stole a wand of remove disease and slipped away from Ramoska's clutches, but he knew enough about the scheme to inform the PCs about it.
Investigating the temple, the PCs found that all the Taxfest coin got funnelled through a central pipe...around which had been installed a Death's Head Coffer, thus infecting all the coin that passed through it prior to redistribution. The coffer successfully tied the scheme back to the Direption; it also demonstrated to the PCs that this plague WAS manufactured, and that plans had been in place for some time -- it was obviously an inside job by somebody with a lot of influence and resources.
About the spreading of the plague, it makes sense.
It says in the AP that there are 2 spreads of the plague.
1st is the sum of 50,000 silver coins deposed in the grand vault of abadar, all infected and spreading onto the coins and other items in the bank.
2nd is you said the ship sinking and spreading the plague that way was a bad idea. I dissagree. With the amount of people on the nearby beach living outside the city (like the Solaldo family) then many poor people will grab these boxes and open them, taking out the coins seeing them as a gift and spending them just like the girl did. I think the ship was meant to be more of a red harring. Think about it, if you find these boxes and find that the disease is inside them and they came from the boat, the last place you would suspect is the very city you are in and it looks more like it came from somewhere external like Cheliax or some other location purposly sending in this vessal.
The ship was picked out to be sunk and set up to be sunk. They had riddled the inside and ravaged the bracing, after that a few shots do the job. They didn't want it to reach land, it was designed only to be in range.
Is there a reason you're answering questions posed 4 years ago, by all means if you're having fun go nuts, just had to ask, curiosity and what not :-)
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Well, cap'n, for someone who lives in the past like you, it shouldn't be a problem answering an ancient question, now should it? Lol, no seriously, these boards still get used by people who are playing the AP right now and who have certain questions, so there you'll find the merit in answering really old questions.
And there is also the having fun and going nuts part, of course ...