Grapple & Pins, Page 62


Combat & Magic


Round 1, grapple. Round 2, pin. Round 3, tie a grappled person up. Did D&D characters suddenly turn into rodeo cowboys?

Really, it only takes a single CMB to tie someone up? The language in that area is not real clear that it takes an action (is it part of the pin or a separate action?).

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The way things are worded it sounds that someone who escapes a pin also escapes the grapple?


Starfinder Superscriber

Is it just me or did the grappling in Alpha 1 seem much better? One roll to resolve the whole pinned/held/etc.


How about Grappling being a Skill?


Dan Raymond wrote:
How about Grappling being a Skill?

Yes!

Grapple as a skill will remove the BAB component, thus helping caracters who want to specialized the chance to, whichever class they choose.

Some creatures have racial bonus to this skill, to reflect their ability to grapple (choker?).

Grapple skill should be STR, but some feats would permit to use DEX.

...And maybe put the whole Combat Maneuver as a skill. "Improved"-feats would still give bonuses, but only to specific combat maneuver action (trip, sunder, grapple...)


YULDM wrote:
Dan Raymond wrote:
How about Grappling being a Skill?

Yes!

Grapple as a skill will remove the BAB component, thus helping caracters who want to specialized the chance to, whichever class they choose.

...And maybe put the whole Combat Maneuver as a skill. "Improved"-feats would still give bonuses, but only to specific combat maneuver action (trip, sunder, grapple...)

No!

Making grapple or any other combat maneuver a skill does not make sense (at least to me) for the following reason:

By removing the BAB component of any combat maneuver, you cripple the ONLY advantage that the combat-oriented classes have over the skill or magic based classes (Most notably the fighter, who at this point only gets 2 skills)- their attack prowess.


Aaron Armstrong wrote:
By removing the BAB component of any combat maneuver, you cripple the ONLY advantage that the combat-oriented classes have over the skill or magic based classes (Most notably the fighter, who at this point only gets 2 skills)- their attack prowess.

This is a good point, didn't thought of that.

But Fighters have some advantages to help them keep an edge with grapple. They usually have higher STR score (increase bonus to grapple skill). They also have plenty of bonus feats and can choose Improved Grapple, or equivalent.

Grappling is far for being resolved I think...

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Actually barbarians have a great strength, and more skill ranks to play around with.

Grapple as skill though? No.


YULDM wrote:

Fighters have some advantages to help them keep an edge with grapple. They usually have higher STR score (increase bonus to grapple skill). They also have plenty of bonus feats and can choose Improved Grapple, or equivalent.

Grappling is far for being resolved I think...

Well, I have always been of the opinion that being able to use the SKILL Escape Artist has and continues to ruin Grappling. These new rules simplify the sequence of events but instead of making it more of a boon to the fighter or barbarian it instead shifts it VASTLY in the favor of the rogue and other "more skillful" classes.

I support my case by pointing out that the new rules have even watered down the Improved Grapple Feat, making it grant a mere paltry +2 bonus to the grapple instead of the much more substantial bonus granted to even a level 1 Rogue with the Escape Artist skill (example Rogue having a Dex Mod of +2, with two skill ranks in Escape Artist for a total +7 opposed modifier)

Does anybody else agree with me when I state that the grapple skill has been hamstrung for fighters to the point of being an almost useless maneuver?

I propose that Escape Artist can only be used to break out of the Grappled or Pinned condition after a Concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the Grappler's CMB + damage taken.

I suggest this because I think it makes sense that somebody being grappled would need to be able to focus in order to break free of a continuous effort of others to restrain and subdue them.


I actually like the Alpha 2 grapple rules - they may be more simple than we're used to, but they're now closer to parity with the other Combat Maneuvers in terms of mechanical complexity.

I agree that Escape Artist is a problem. What about making it applicable only against static restraints eg. being tied up, entangled etc? Maybe having ranks in EA could give a just a flat +3 bonus to break a grapple?


I like the Escape artist part in that it allows skill to overcome brute force. That's a positive part of DnD to me. They're already suffering -4 Dex from being grappled, for those who didn't know.

Some critique of the rule as is in Alpha 2.

Overall, a little wordy perhaps. You should be able to fit the effects into something more like the size of Bull Rush or Overrun, with no special sub-options that need worked through.

Some tweaks I'd make, after a day or two's tinkering.

tussock wrote:

Skills section p36

Climb: You can climb an unwilling creature two or more sizes larger using this skill at +5 against 15+CMB (see p60). DC 15 + your Climb skill for them to Escape, causing you to fall.

Escape Artist: You can make any Escape checks in combat using your Escape Artist skill at +5, in place of your CMB (see p60).

Ride: You can mount an unwilling creature one or more sizes larger using this skill against 15+CMB (see p60), gaining +5 if the target has a saddle or bridle. DC 15 + your Ride skill for them to Escape, causing you to fall.

Equipment section

Rope: If you tie a Helpless or Pinned target as a full round action, they become Pinned indefinitely. The escape DC is 15 + your CMB, and they take -5 to Escape. You may tie a grappled target with a CMB check at -10.

Weapons section

Net: This ranged weapon has Improved Grab against creatures up to it's size, dealing no damage. You must finish your turn adjacent to the target to add the Grappled condition to you and your target, otherwise you release the net's ropes and leave the target Entangled.

CMB section. p60-63

ESCAPE
As a standard action you can break free of any hindrances. Make one check and compare it to all target numbers for any conditions you wish to escape. You may remove the Entangled, Grappled, and Pinned conditions, and throw off any unwanted Riders or Climbers.
You may use the Escape Artist skill at +5 in place of your CMB.
You automatically Escape without an action if all hindering creatures are willing to allow it or are disabled.

GRAPPLE
As a standard action, with two free hands (or one hand at -5) or a weapon with Improved Grab, you can grapple a foe in reach. You gain +5 to this check against an adjacent target with the grappled condition. Your target gains an AoO against you if not already grappled, unless you have improved grapple or Improved Grab.
If successful, you deal damage as an unarmed strike (or by weapon for Improved Grab). If your target is then adjacent (you may move them to an empty adjacent space if they're not) both you and the target gain the Grappled condition. If you succeeded by 5 your target then also gains the Pinned condition for one round. If you have a Bite attack you can then make one at full BAB, if you have Rake you then gain those attacks, and if you have Constrict you then deal extra damage.
Once you start a grapple, it lasts until your opponent escapes, is disabled, or you both wish it to end.

NB: The reason I'd use an automatically maintained grapple is to cut back the extra detail. You can Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm, attack with a small weapon, punch and kick, claw and bite, or whatever without requiring extra detail in the section, as the condition neatly restricts your actions to the appropriate set. Escaping may need to be made easier as a result.

Anyway, one standard roll for all possible Grapple results has got to be a winner. Same for all the combat maneuvers.

tussock wrote:

SNATCH
You pick up an opponent and carry them against their will. Make a Grapple at a -10 penalty. If you can support the weight of your target, you do not gain the grappled condition, though your target does as long as you use your hands or improved grab weapon to hold them. The target gains a +10 bonus to Escape checks while held this way.

SWALLOW WHOLE
Creatures with this ability may Snatch an opponent three sizes smaller with their mouth. If they get a pinned result, the target is swallowed instead, taking automatic damage each round. A swallowed target gets a +5 bonus to Escape (+10 for Snatch, -5 for being swallowed).

Conditions section. p121-123

ENTANGLED: -4 Dex, -2 to attack, half speed, can't run or charge, Spellcraft DC 15+spell level to cast spells.

GRAPPLED: you are Entangled, must stay adjacent to the creature or other effect that's grappling with you, and cannot use two arms other than to grapple. You may only attack or make combat maneuvers with light weapons, natural weapons, or unarmed.

PINNED: you are Entangled, Grappled, Flat Footed, and can perform no action with a physical element other than Escape.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I like the rules for Grapple. I think its easy to use and work well.
That said do have some Questions
1: it says on pg.62 "Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions." I took this as meening that if I had pinned a monster and then I wanted to move the monster then it would lose the pinned condition, but I could moves us half my speed away. Others in our group thought that he wouldn't lose the pinned condition when I tried to move us. Which is it?
2: Can a Lamia Matriarch use Spider Climb to move away while keeping a Gnome Sor. pinned? I dont think so, but this happened in our last game. DM ruled possible at time but now is not so sure.
3.Could another PC free said Gnome from Grapple by entering a Grapple with the Lamia Matriarch and winning CMB?

What do you guys thing? I hope someone at Paizo has time to answer as well.


I had an interesting grappling related event occur this weekend in my game. Under the PFRPG system the CR of a 10th level barbarian is 8, a difficult challenge for a 6th level party but not overwhelming.

The 6th level barbarian in the party attempted to grapple this 10th level barbarian (of course not knowing his level). The CMB to do so was 29 (15+ 14 cmb). While raging the 6th level barbarian had a CMB of +11 (6 BAB + 5 Str). He needed an 18 to successfully grapple the enemy barbarian.

Under the old CR system I probably wouldn't have thought a thing about it since a CR 10 encounter is supposed to be overwhelming, but a CR 8 encounter is only supposed to be difficult.

The PC barbarian gave up attempting interesting combat manuevers against this foe because his chance of success was so low which he realized when he rolled a 16 and failed.

The thing is that if the enemy had been an 8th level barbarian he would have been a typical encounter, but the DC for the grapple would only drop by 2. So the PC would still have needed a 16 to succeed and he was stronger than his target.

I'm house ruling the CMB DC down to 11+CMB and upping all Improved CMB feats to +4 as a result of this weekends play.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aaron Armstrong wrote:
Well, I have always been of the opinion that being able to use the SKILL Escape Artist has and continues to ruin Grappling. These new rules simplify the sequence of events but instead of making it more of a boon to the fighter or barbarian it instead shifts it VASTLY in the favor of the rogue and other "more skillful" classes.

Two things to keep in mind for Escape Artist vs Grapple.

1. As Tussock mentioned, grappled creatures have a -4 to Dex.

2. The grappeler has a +5 bonus to grapple checks as long as the grapple is maintained.

This gives the grappler the equivalent bonus of +7 to their grapple checks.

Liberty's Edge

Arne Schmidt wrote:
I'm house ruling the CMB DC down to 11+CMB and upping all Improved CMB feats to +4 as a result of this weekends play.

A 1st level Commoner with a CMB of 0 trying to grapple his clone must equal or beat a DC of 15. He must roll a 15, which means that 25% of his attempts will succeed.

With you house rule, 45% of his attempts will succeed. Nearly half of the time, the commoners will be grappling in the first round of combat.

A 6th level barbarian with a CMB of 11 (BAB 6 + 5 STR) trying to grapple his clone must equal or beat a DC of 26. He must roll a 14, which means that 30% of his attempts will succeed. With Improved grapple, the odds increase to 40%.

A 6th level barbarian with a CMB of 11 (BAB 6 + 5 STR) trying to grapple a 6th level Wizard (CMB = 3) must equal or beat a DC of 18. He must roll a 7, which means that 65% of his attempts will succeed. With Improved grapple, the odds increase to 50%.

Do you find these odds acceptable or do you think grappling should succeed more often?

Whenever evaluating the efficiency of a combat maneuver or action, I believe we should bear in mind that by making these actions easier, you penalize the PCs who will be grappled (and "swallowed whole"), tripped and have their weapons sundered much more often.


Locworks wrote:
Arne Schmidt wrote:
I'm house ruling the CMB DC down to 11+CMB and upping all Improved CMB feats to +4 as a result of this weekends play.

A 1st level Commoner with a CMB of 0 trying to grapple his clone must equal or beat a DC of 15. He must roll a 15, which means that 25% of his attempts will succeed.

With you house rule, 45% of his attempts will succeed. Nearly half of the time, the commoners will be grappling in the first round of combat.

A 6th level barbarian with a CMB of 11 (BAB 6 + 5 STR) trying to grapple his clone must equal or beat a DC of 26. He must roll a 14, which means that 30% of his attempts will succeed. With Improved grapple, the odds increase to 40%.

A 6th level barbarian with a CMB of 11 (BAB 6 + 5 STR) trying to grapple a 6th level Wizard (CMB = 3) must equal or beat a DC of 18. He must roll a 7, which means that 65% of his attempts will succeed. With Improved grapple, the odds increase to 50%.

Do you find these odds acceptable or do you think grappling should succeed more often?

Whenever evaluating the efficiency of a combat maneuver or action, I believe we should bear in mind that by making these actions easier, you penalize the PCs who will be grappled (and "swallowed whole"), tripped and have their weapons sundered much more often.

Those are excellent questions Locworks.

I prefer my numbers.

The 6th level Barbarian (CMB +11) grappling his clone would need a 22. He'd succeed 50% of the time, which is reasonable to me. Likewise the target has a 50% chance of breaking free on his turn. With my house ruled improved grapple they each have a 70% chance.

The wizard with CMB +3 gets grappled by my barbarian 85% of the time and 95% with improved grapple. This seemed a bit severe to me until I realized that a grappled spellcaster can still cast spells with a DC 15+spell level Spellcraft check. In 3.5 getting grappled pretty much took the wizard out of the fight, not so anymore. Because grappling is a standard action the barbarian can't pin the wizard until after he gets the chance to cast at least one spell (with Spellcraft check). Even if the wizard is pinned he can still cast verbal spells (like dimension door) with the same spellcraft check many of which will grant instant escape.

Swallow whole used to be impossible to beat because of the size modifier, but that's already been vastly reduced in Pathfinder. On top of that the CR of creatures with PC classes are two lower than they are under 3.5 so they're all better at CMB than their 3.5 companions would be.

Grappling is also a less debilitating condition in Pathfinder than it was in 3.5. Making it harder to initiate on top of that just makes it a non-viable option in my opinion.

However I'm still open to the possibility of modification, possibly returning to the idea of opposed roles instead (with the defender gaining a bonus possibly). Mostly because while these numbers seem okay for Grapple they aren't necessarily good for disarm, trip, etc. It shouldn't be too easy to disarm people in my opinion because it just isn't fun.

So in summary, I'm certainly not locked into my houserule at this point, that was just my instinct.

Liberty's Edge

Cheers. Actually, your system would make combats much more dynamic as the high BAB players would break away from the whack-it-till-it-drops routine and try combat maneuvers much more often.


That's kind of my concern with the current PFRPG system, that they'll just never bother to try it in the first place. And in the current rules its even harder if you don't have the 'improved' feat because you add the damage you take from the AoO to the DC of success.

I just don't see anyone attempting any kind of combat maneuver at all under the existing system.


Arne Schmidt wrote:

That's kind of my concern with the current PFRPG system, that they'll just never bother to try it in the first place. And in the current rules its even harder if you don't have the 'improved' feat because you add the damage you take from the AoO to the DC of success.

I just don't see anyone attempting any kind of combat maneuver at all under the existing system.

I guess my players are aberrations then . . . the rogue/barbarian and the rogue/cleric have both tried a few of them in combat.


Were they successful attempts? (honest curiousity here, maybe I'm the aberration)

My problem was that a melee focused character (a raging barbarian) tried to grapple a challenging, but not overwhelming, character of the same size and failed with a roll of 16 (he needed an 18). After that he just didn't think it was worth it to even try again.

Yes, he may try to grapple a wizard some day, but I doubt he's going to try grappling, disarming, or tripping a fighter type again. And those are the instances where its most interesting to me. The fighter disarms the ranger, who then grapples the fighter, both attempting to move the other over the edge of a cliff and so on.


Wouldn't it be simple to just make grapple require opposed attack rolls and take an attack action? This could be said for all combat maneuvers. I think the DC part is what is really knocking things out of whack.

If the concept is to try to emulate the AC mechanic, why not knock the base down to 10?

Liberty's Edge

anthony Valente wrote:

Wouldn't it be simple to just make grapple require opposed attack rolls and take an attack action? This could be said for all combat maneuvers. I think the DC part is what is really knocking things out of whack.

If the concept is to try to emulate the AC mechanic, why not knock the base down to 10?

I guess that the 15 base DC is representing the higher difficulty of tripping, disarming, etc as opposed to simply hitting a target.


Arne Schmidt wrote:

Were they successful attempts? (honest curiousity here, maybe I'm the aberration)

Well, that's part of why I posted my playtests . . . ;)

At any rate, so far the rogue/barbarian has managed to grapple once and sunder once, and has probably tried a couple more times that he failed, and the cleric/rogue has tried a bull rush and a sunder that didn't work out.

A lot of times it has to do with the characters and if they have a plan for a given encounter, if they want to take someone alive, or if they are worried about a given weapon, for example. I think its something that you have to see in play a few times before you can figure out if your players will be willing to try it or not.

I will say, the players are more amenable to trying these things since they have a DC to roll against than they were when there were opposed checks, both because it often slowed the game down to make sure what the opposed check meant, and the uncertainty of the PC rolling well, but the oppossed check rolling higher. This is fairly quick and straightforward, but yeah, its not going to be the best option all of the time.


Arne Schmidt wrote:

Were they successful attempts? (honest curiousity here, maybe I'm the aberration)

My problem was that a melee focused character (a raging barbarian) tried to grapple a challenging, but not overwhelming, character of the same size and failed with a roll of 16 (he needed an 18). After that he just didn't think it was worth it to even try again.

I saw the same thing when I ran some practice fights with chokers and crocodiles; even making a successful grapple against a weak PC required a lot of luck. A giant octopus (CMB 12) is definitely not a CR 8 encounter any more!


Arne Schmidt wrote:
Yes, he may try to grapple a wizard some day, but I doubt he's going to try grappling, disarming, or tripping a fighter type again. And those are the instances where its most interesting to me. The fighter disarms the ranger, who then grapples the fighter, both attempting to move the other over the edge of a cliff and so on.

One of the biggest issues that D&D has always suffered, from basic and 1st ed to today, is that combatants slug at each other until they drop or withdraw. Allow me to be the first to encourage dropping the DC to 10+stuff, since with 10+stuff combatants are encouraged to do something other than just stab each other. Disarm, sunder, and bull rush are great options, but the fact that they're so damn clunky in D20 discourages their use, and the fact that they're so damn hard in 3.Pai also discourages their use.

In Pathfinder, I've noticed that nobody wants to compete with a 75% chance of failure when they may well have a 50% or better chance to hit the target for damage. Reducing the DC isn't going to make attacking for damage "unattractive" (it'd be hard to do that), but it will make SFX maneuvers an even option with attacking for damage in terms of bang-for-buck. If it's good enough to seriously consider, it's a successful addition to the game.

Liberty's Edge

Pneumonica wrote:
One of the biggest issues that D&D has always suffered, from basic and 1st ed to today, is that combatants slug at each other until they drop or withdraw. Allow me to be the first to encourage dropping the DC to 10+stuff, since with 10+stuff combatants are encouraged to do something other than just stab each other. Disarm, sunder, and bull rush are great options, but the fact that they're so damn clunky in D20 discourages their use, and the fact that they're so damn hard in 3.Pai also discourages their use.

A similar effect would be achieved by:

- raising the bonus from Improved (Grapple, Disarm, etc.) to +4
- allowing (Greater) Weapon Focus to be added to the relevant CMB.
- allowing the fighter's Weapon Training to grant a bonus to CMB.
- listing the bonuses to add to CMB or to reduce the DC
- adding Greater Improved (Grapple, Disarm, etc.) feats

I'll wait for Alpha 3 to work on these, but feel free to use the list for inspiration.


Locworks wrote:
Pneumonica wrote:
One of the biggest issues that D&D has always suffered, from basic and 1st ed to today, is that combatants slug at each other until they drop or withdraw. Allow me to be the first to encourage dropping the DC to 10+stuff, since with 10+stuff combatants are encouraged to do something other than just stab each other. Disarm, sunder, and bull rush are great options, but the fact that they're so damn clunky in D20 discourages their use, and the fact that they're so damn hard in 3.Pai also discourages their use.

A similar effect would be achieved by:

- raising the bonus from Improved (Grapple, Disarm, etc.) to +4
- allowing (Greater) Weapon Focus to be added to the relevant CMB.
- allowing the fighter's Weapon Training to grant a bonus to CMB.
- listing the bonuses to add to CMB or to reduce the DC
- adding Greater Improved (Grapple, Disarm, etc.) feats

Wrong on all counts, since every one of those abilities have, as a minimum cost, the spending of a Feat and one of those is a Fighter ability. While I don't uniformly disagree with your statements (I think you go overboard, but I don't disagree on all counts), charging a Feat to make combat options useful isn't the same as charging no Feats to make combat options useful.


Wrong on all counts, since every one of those abilities have, as a minimum cost, the spending of a Feat and one of those is a Fighter ability. While I don't uniformly disagree with your statements (I think you go overboard, but I don't disagree on all counts), charging a Feat to make combat options useful isn't the same as charging no Feats to make combat options useful.

-On the contrary

Firstly, Fighters ought to be the best class for combat manuevers. Combat is the thing they are supposed to be good at.

Secondly, 10+stuff makes it to easy to disarm. It ought to be hard to disarm someone, becuase in most cases, the fight is then pretty much over (except at lower levels, when the spare weapon is just as good as the primary).

And lastly, making combat manuevers easier does not favor the PCs. Most, if not all, PCs are vulnerable to combat manuever-y stuff. This is not the case for enemies in most campaigns, given opponents with innate spell-like abilties, natural weapons and armor, etc.


JGregory wrote:


I agree that Escape Artist is a problem. What about making it applicable only against static restraints eg. being tied up, entangled etc? Maybe having ranks in EA could give a just a flat +3 bonus to break a grapple?

Escape artist isn't that bad if you consider this: when you have multiple attacks you can try to escape a grapple multiple times with your BAC dropping as usual each attempt. If you use Escape artist it is a standard action, which means you only get one chance.


Do you all consider it an advantage or disadvantage to be Dwarf while Grappling? Good Strength, Stable, But short and short arms?

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