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For some people public transportation is the standard already, but for many of us, our communities have no reliable or reasonable PT system. For us, at the current rate increase in Oil, there will come a time when we must seriously consider our personal transportation-- how to get to work, and how to get around.
In my family, we already restrict vehicle use by shopping in bulk, and driving by a fairly strict schedule--the days of Sunday drives and spontaneous jaunts to the beach are long-gone.
My wife and I determined that $7 per US gallon would force us to garage the second car. $9 per US gallon would put us on the brink of moving on installation (I'm in the military and we usually volunteer to live off installation--around military bases, that means you usually live at least 10 miles from Post, but it also means no-one tells you when and how high to cut your grass, or how many pumpkins you can have on your porch at Halloween).
$11 per US gallon, with no offset in salary, would force us to garage both vehicles and use one for emergencies only. Bicycles and walking would become the standard in my family.
Our mark, at my current salary: $11 USD per US gallon means no more driving.
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Our mark, at my current salary: $11 USD per US gallon means no more driving.
Oh man. I've been thinking about this for quite some time. Prices as of now still aren't killing me, and I have an older vehicle with half decent MPG. I live in suburban Long Island, where the public transportation isn't the greatest, although there is a pretty good train line. A bus to the station plus a bus to my job might not take tooooooooo long, but it's not something I'd enjoy doing. I'd say I'd start seriously considering this a bit lower than you: $8 USD per gallon. However, that might change if my plans for a new car work out. Regardless, these are some scary times and they look like they are going to get worse before they get better.
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To clarify my $11 statement: $11 USD per US gallon means driving the car once per week, as necessary, to buy groceries and essential items for which a car is required due to the cargo-to-distance footprint.
Before anyone suggests it, at current taxi rates in my hometown, the drive to the grocer and back is cheaper than taxi fare, and there is no public service (bus) that goes to or reasonably near my house.
With a lack of viable alternatives to get to work (which is just stupid, honestly, 90% of my job could easily be done via tunnel if they'd unclench about remote employees), I can't imagine a price gas would reach where I wouldn't be forced to pay for it. There is some talk of a tram being built between Ann Arbor and Detroit, which would so rock.
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...I can't imagine a price gas would reach where I wouldn't be forced to pay for it...
At $11 per gallon, my monthly cost in gas for my Jeep, with no change in current use, would cost more than my monthly car payment and insurance combined--I would be paying more to drive the Jeep than it cost to pay for and insure the Jeep. My wife's R320 would almost break even--it gets awesome mileage, but it's diesel, which is now more expensive than premium gas.
Here in Konxville we have good PT mainly because it's a collage town, but I grew up in a area with no PT what so ever. Also walking/biking isn't really an option in a very rural area. I drove 25 minutes to get to highschool every morning in a town of less than 5000 people. I'm not sure what it would take to break me, but I would really feel for my home town. Not driving isn't really an option, and I could see it really hurting my family, the people that live there, and the town itself. Somethings got to give at some point. Anything I just wish our money wasn't monopoly money.
Fizz
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We currently pay abour $2 per litre here in the UK, which is about $7.50 per gallon. US fuel is actually pretty cheap by European standards, which is part of the reason why, when it was globally cheap, you used to drive (and still do to some extent) big, inefficient cars like SUVs and Hummers. We still drive about here pretty much as much as we used to before, but the price rise proportionately is probably not so huge for us as a big chunk is a flat fuel duty per litre and VAT, and the actual petroleum bit is less than half of the cost. It is a bigger issue for businesses like hauliers, as it is a big cost to business.
At $4.10 per gallon I will STOP driving.
(you guys must be super wealthy to put up numbers like $11..)
The question to me is why is oil now at $115/barrel, when at the time Bush invaded Iraq to look for the those WMDs (cough, cough) it was only at something like $33/barrel? Seriously, anyone know?
We're in New Jersey, and though our wallets aren't being raped as violently as some, we're actively looking for a house near my wife's college so we can mothball the car.
In spite of temporary respites, I think the age of cheap US gas is over and ain't coming back- welcome to the rest of the world, folks.
Why is oil so expensive? It's simple:
1)The environmentalists won't let us find any more oil deposits or build new refineries. There hasn't been a new refinery built in 30 years, and there has been no new oil drilling in almost as long, even though we know where several large deposits can be found. The Chinese are harvesting oil right off the Florida coast, and yet American drillers can't drill within 200 miles. Go figure. By the way, environmentalists also won't let us build any new nuclear plants, even though new technology has virtually eliminated the dangers most people fear. With the new designs, half-a-dozen plants could supply all the energy needs of the country for a century and your monthly electrical bill would be only about 10% of what it is now.
2) Simple supply and demand. The OPEC nations aren't willing to increase production because of turmoil in the region (and no, I'm not talking about Iraq) and because they're trying to exert political influence. Meanwhile, countries like India and especially China are increasing their need for oil several-fold. (And for those of you who like to whine about global warming, pollution, oil consumption, etc., China is now the world's biggest polluter and consumer of oil - go over there to do your whining, please.)
3) The U.S. government is unwilling to loosen up on its taxation policies. For example, everyone's whining about how much money the oil companies are making. FYI, Exxon makes roughly 9% on its products across the board, which is about half of the average profit for most industries. Meanwhile, the federal government makes an average of about 54% on that same gallon of gas. That's what we call "confiscatory taxation". And, you may be interested to know, this is the main reason that oil companies and car manufacturers aren't working harder to produce more environmentally friendly and energy efficient products - the budget simply isn't there.
4) State governments are unwilling to loosen up on their foolish environmentalist policies regarding the refinement of gasoline. There are only a few refineries in the U.S., almost half of which are offline at any one time due to the fact that they're wearing out, and yet each state (and some counties) insists on having its own formulation. That means that refineries must frequently shut down, retool, and reconfigure their machinery to satisfy those requirements. And, by the way, recent government studies indicate that most of these so-called "environmentally friendly" formulations are in fact more toxic and environmentally destructive than plain gasoline.
In spite of temporary respites, I think the age of cheap US gas is over and ain't coming back- welcome to the rest of the world, folks.
While I completely agree that the age of cheap gas is over, there is a big difference between what is happening now and what has been going on for decades in Europe and the rest of the world. A big part of the high prices of gas in Europe stems from a fiscality that imposes high taxes on gas. Right now the increase in gas prices in North America have nothing to do with taxes. All the increases are in profit margins of refineries and the petroleum industry. The hike in oil prices, which trickle down in gas price hikes, is the result of many factor :
- Speculation on oil prices (this is a big factor right now)
- Decrease of the American dollar value in relation to other currencies over the world, while the barrel of oil is negociated in American dollars
- Insecurities in production (war in Irak, rebellion in Nigeria, nationalisation of petroleum fields in Venezuela, etc.)
- Decrease in relative refining capacity (note that no new refineries have been built in the US since the '70s). Most refineries are producing at or close to maximum capacity. Any glitch in production (break down, natural disaster, environmental problems) causes a drop in available refined products (gaz, plastics, lubricants, etc.)
- Increase demand from developping countries, especially China and India. With current rate of increase of oil consumption, the demand of both of these countries could be over the current world production capacity within a couple of decades. This puts a lot of pressure on the market (increase demand = increase in prices).
Note that none of these factors result in direct increases in governmental revenues, which would be the case if price increases were related to fiscal factors. In fact, to give an example, here in Quebec, even though we have relatively high taxes on gas compared to the US, the increases in gas prices have resulted in the phenomenon where it costs more to the government to buy gas for its vehicles than what it gets from gas tax revenues.
We're already down to one car, but my husband has to drive to Sterling Heights and back every day for work and since that job is what pays the bills, there's not really anywhere that we can give as a cut-off price to stop driving. There's great public transit here in A2, which is how I get around during the week if I need to go somewhere, so I guess we're fortunate in that regard.
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It's over 15 miles to work, over 6 miles to the nearest grocery store and 5 miles just from town. There is a bus system in town but I have to go 5-6 miles to get to the nearest stop. To visit any of in-laws or parents is a 150-350 mile one way trip. I don't think I could ever stop driving, winters are to cold to ride a bike and 15 miles is too far to walk to work. I plan to buy the cheapest most fuel efficient car I can find and ride my motorcycle as much as possible.
I would happily ride PT...if there was one that was worth a damn in this town, and drive one a week for groceries and whatnot.
Why is oil so expensive? It's simple:...
Ah. I did miss one other factor, arguably the greatest of them, given the current climate.
5) Speculation on the futures market. In essence, this amounts to speculators being of the opinion that oil will increase in price. In other words, people believe it's going to go up, so it is. Why do they believe the price will continue to rise? Simply put, because of all the factors previously mentioned. Thanks, Guillaume, for the reminder.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I live 20 miles from work. If gas prices reached $8/gal. with no offset in salary, I would be forced to find a new job closer to my home. I would probably look into places within biking range and use the car only when absolutely necessary. I'm fortunate enough to live within walking distance of two grocery stores already, so that wouldn't be much of an issue. The hospital is a bit far, though, so that would necessitate a drive. Other than that, special occassions only.
It would also kill my gaming group, because, aside from one player who lives in my neighborhood, all my other players are 20+ miles away.
Why is oil so expensive? It's simple:...And don't forget that oil, as a commodity, is traded in $US's. As the value of the $US drops, it takes more $US's to buy the same barrel of oil.
-Skeld
Sometimes this is called inflation.
But, we had better get back, they mostly come at night. Mostly.
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I will never stop driving.
I will be a Road Warrior, in one of the last of the V-8 interceptors.
The roads will be my battleground, and I will battle for gas.
"You can run,....but you can't hide!!!"
Damn, I sold my car when I moved to Europe, but now I'm thinking I better pick me up one again before the Car Wars start.
Any Aussies out there know where I can get a cheap Ford Falcon?
I hate driving anyway. I would drive as least often as possible no matter how much it cost. I'm lucky, I can walk most of the places I need to get to anyway.
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I will never stop driving.
I will be a Road Warrior, in one of the last of the V-8 interceptors.
The roads will be my battleground, and I will battle for gas.
"You can run,....but you can't hide!!!"
Damn, I sold my car when I moved to Europe, but now I'm thinking I better pick me up one again before the Car Wars start.
Any Aussies out there know where I can get a cheap Ford Falcon?
You could get a Vespa, and join my crew of surly bike gangers.
~wry smile~ If gas goes over $5 a gallon, I will be walking / riding my bike more often. Luckly, the work car uses the work gas card, so I don't have to worry about paying for that vehicle's gas.
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At what point would you stop driving (because of the price of Gas)? When they cut the Gas with Cocaine to downgrade its purity and value.
My Mum tells me she'll stop using the car at $10 per litre (saving it for an emergency - like leaving town ahead of the tidal wave) but at that point there is no reason to register the vehicle.
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I don't know if I have a limit. I would have to weigh whether the 2 year old would be able to go to preschool or not while the 5 year old would have to ride the bus to school when she starts kindergarten. And like Dreamweaver said earlier it is too far for him to ride or walk to work so I guess we could look at him switching jobs but then that means he leaves a company he loves to work for. And still he would be able to ride a bike in the summer but in the winter and its 30 below he would have to drive or at least ride a snowmobile. As of right now I try not to drive as much and what not but when you live in Montana there are not a lot of options for us.
There is no point in which I would stop driving . . . there is a point where I would rent a studio apartment closer to work so I would only drive home on weekends. Once it's cheaperto have an apartment than to spend what I spend in gas I'll start apartment hunting.
BTW, I fill up my tank every other day. I live in Port Huron, MI and work in Dearborn, MI. it's approxamitely 75-80 miles, one way for me each day.
There is no point in which I would stop driving . . . there is a point where I would rent a studio apartment closer to work so I would only drive home on weekends. Once it's cheaperto have an apartment than to spend what I spend in gas I'll start apartment hunting.
BTW, I fill up my tank every other day. I live in Port Huron, MI and work in Dearborn, MI. it's approxamitely 75-80 miles, one way for me each day.
Ouch! That hurts even me! Good luck with that.
Commuting, I have to drive and take public transportation. I would love to just take public transportation. Not that I love crying children (or children in general) or standing next to bums or having a huge guy's elbow jabbed in my ribs for any length of time; I just think it's much more economical and better for the environment. Ultimately, I would like to see a greater emphasis on public transportation as fuel prices continue to rise, especially outside of metropolitan areas. I don't know how long it will be before that radical of a change can happen or how expensive oil has to get before buses, trams and subways become more common, but it's something I personally would like to see.
It's really not so bad once you've used it enough. Soon, your fellow human beings become mere obstacles on your path to work and you'll develop a nice solipsistic little bubble.
Soon, your fellow human beings become mere obstacles on your path to work and you'll develop a nice solipsistic little bubble.
And that's a good thing?
BTW, I fill up my tank every other day. I live in Port Huron, MI and work in Dearborn, MI. it's approxamitely 75-80 miles, one way for me each day.
One day *they* will institute a National Speed Limit of 35 mph to conserve gas.
At those speeds it will start taking you 2 hours to get to work -- one way :-(
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BTW, I fill up my tank every other day. I live in Port Huron, MI and work in Dearborn, MI. it's approxamitely 75-80 miles, one way for me each day.One day *they* will institute a National Speed Limit of 35 mph to conserve gas.
At those speeds it will start taking you 2 hours to get to work -- one way :-(
My Jeep gets its best mileage at 55 MPH. The decrease in average mileage is significant at 35.
Soon, your fellow human beings become mere obstacles on your path to work and you'll develop a nice solipsistic little bubble.And that's a good thing?
Not really a good thing, but a necessary thing if you're in, say, New York City at rush hour trying to get where you're going on time.
I live in Texas. At $2.50/gallon people were grumbling about trading in their F-250s for cars. Now, at $3.40, everyone is driving a super heavy F-350, and there's still no public transportation. At $22/gallon it would be the same. At $700 a gallon, with fast, clean, efficient public transportation, they would happily take out a second mortgage, just to drive their trucks some more. And by then, each truck would be the size of Detroit. Higher gas prices lead to more grumbling; they do not influence behavior in the slightest bit that I can tell.
Like I said in Andrew's other thread, I'm glad I don't own a car and that my scooter only needs to be filled about once a week (just over a gallon per filling).
Especially with gas prices here in Europe (well, Denmark anyway) hovering just below $8.75 a gallon.
Nice to see so many Michigan people (No, I am not going to use the –gander suffix here)!
At the risk of wandering too far off the original topic (which has already happened a few times), I did see an interesting blurb from McCain the other day where he advocated repealing gas taxes, as we’re basically taxing those who live the farthest from work (i.e. “the poor”) hardest.
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Nice to see so many Michigan people (No, I am not going to use the –gander suffix here)!
At the risk of wandering too far off the original topic (which has already happened a few times), I did see an interesting blurb from McCain the other day where he advocated repealing gas taxes, as we’re basically taxing those who live the farthest from work (i.e. “the poor”) hardest.
That's a great point. Depending on where you live, the offset of living in the city--and probably being able to forgo a car altogether--vs. living in the 'burbs, or rurally--where a car is requisite--may not balance. I've heard, "Once you leave London, you can never afford to return." It's the same in a lot of major cities in the US. Thus, if you started outside NYC, even without a car, you might not be able to afford to move there and maintain your family's standard of living. I'm starting to see a true Catch-22 developing for a significant slice of the population, especially in the rural US. Maybe ruralites managed well 75 years ago, but in CE 2008, people don't usually get up at 3AM so they can walk to the Mill and punch in before 8.
Very true. But I do kind of wonder if the U.S. government can afford the $10 billion hit (in lost taxes) on top of the war costs. The dollar is already weak enough; I'd hate to destroy all international confidence in the U.S. economy and make it into a Weimar Deutschmark.
I live in brooklyn, ny, so public transportation is the way to go for most of the people I am in regular contact with. I prefer to ride my bike to and from work, however. It's a great form of exercise and saves a hell of a lot of money, even when you consider paying for new inner tubes and such.
You use gas for driving? Really?
Then what do you use to barbacue? Not sure about chicken or ribs, but surly vespa gangers only need about $12 to reach crispy, golden, succulent, perfection.
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I live in Texas. At $2.50/gallon people were grumbling about trading in their F-250s for cars. Now, at $3.40, everyone is driving a super heavy F-350, and there's still no public transportation. At $22/gallon it would be the same. At $700 a gallon, with fast, clean, efficient public transportation, they would happily take out a second mortgage, just to drive their trucks some more. And by then, each truck would be the size of Detroit. Higher gas prices lead to more grumbling; they do not influence behavior in the slightest bit that I can tell.
Hell no! Convert your F350 to Electric. Just Means its as heavy as a Hummer, with the same range...
Actually, in the NT we have as much Thorium as Uranium...what we should be working on is Thorium Fuel Cells for the Artificial Production of Petroleum Hydrocarbon Molecules.
You use gas for driving? Really?
Yes, GASoline, smartass! ;-)
Actually, one of my uncles used to have a Volvo which ran (partially?) on actual gas (not sure which kind exactly). Had a big pressurized container in the trunk/boot/that storage space in the back of the car/whatever.Then what do you use to barbacue? Not sure about chicken or ribs, but surly vespa gangers only need about $12 to reach crispy, golden, succulent, perfection.
Why, barbecue coal/bricks or heat beads, of course!
Haven't done any barbecuing of gangers, vespa ones or any other kind, though... ;-)
Very true. But I do kind of wonder if the U.S. government can afford the $10 billion hit (in lost taxes) on top of the war costs. The dollar is already weak enough; I'd hate to destroy all international confidence in the U.S. economy and make it into a Weimar Deutschmark.
Don't worry. History shows that it'll never work out that way.
Very true. But I do kind of wonder if the U.S. government can afford the $10 billion hit (in lost taxes) on top of the war costs. The dollar is already weak enough; I'd hate to destroy all international confidence in the U.S. economy and make it into a Weimar Deutschmark.
The Amero is the new currency being developed right now between America, Canada, and Mexico to make a borderless community like the EU.
” The North American Union is a supranational organization, modeled on the European Union, that will soon fuse Canada, the United States, and Mexico into a single economic and political unit. The details are still being worked out by the countries' leaders, but the NAU's central governing body will have the power to nullify the laws of its member states. Goods and people will flow among the three countries unimpeded, aided by a network of continent-girdling superhighways. The US and Canadian dollars, along with the peso, will be phased out and replaced by a common North American currency called the amero.”
This guy gives you THE details. ok, not really but he's fun to watch.
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I literally can't stop driving; I'm half an hour from my workplace and an hour from the city where you have to go to shop, and there are literally no forms of public transit available. This is the curse of living in a rural area when the local economy is based on the tourist trade.
Continent girdling superhighways? That's idiocy. Build continent-girdling railways, it'll work better and last long after oil has hit permanent scarcity if we go for renewable energy sources.
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Very true. But I do kind of wonder if the U.S. government can afford the $10 billion hit (in lost taxes) on top of the war costs. The dollar is already weak enough; I'd hate to destroy all international confidence in the U.S. economy and make it into a Weimar Deutschmark.Not the Deutschmark. Our new american currency will be the Amero ! The Amero is the new currency being developed right now between America, Canada, and Mexico to make a borderless community like the EU.
Don't forget Bush signed on to the North American Union. ” The North American Union is a supranational organization, modeled on the European Union, that will soon fuse Canada, the United States, and Mexico into a single economic and political unit. The details are still being worked out by the countries' leaders, but the NAU's central governing body will have the power to nullify the laws of its member states. Goods and people will flow among the three countries unimpeded, aided by a network of continent-girdling superhighways. The US and Canadian dollars, along with the peso, will be phased out and replaced by a common North American currency called the amero.”
This guy gives you THE details. ok, not really but he's fun to watch.
Actually that is the Christian Union of North America. The Commonwealth Used a Black hole weapon on those Nazi bugs and created the USA and Canada to free the world of them. Looks like we will be doing it again.
PS their Currency is not the Amero. It is the New Florin.
Earth is Commonwealth Property. Anyone who doesnt want to be Commonwealth should leave now!
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I literally can't stop driving; I'm half an hour from my workplace and an hour from the city where you have to go to shop, and there are literally no forms of public transit available. This is the curse of living in a rural area when the local economy is based on the tourist trade.
Continent girdling superhighways? That's idiocy. Build continent-girdling railways, it'll work better and last long after oil has hit permanent scarcity if we go for renewable energy sources.
Hypersonic Maglev that travels in Vaccuum pipes below the surface. Just dont mind the six G turns at the Lakes.