With the invention of weapon groups for the fighter, I feel that Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. should apply to entire weapon groups. This would give the fighter more versatility and goodness--things that he sorely deserves.
With the invention of weapon groups for the fighter, I feel that Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. should apply to entire weapon groups. This would give the fighter more versatility and goodness--things that he sorely deserves.
The last sentence seems to imply that only fighters should get this benefit... are you advocating this as a fighter only feature or do you feel anyone that takes the feat should get it?
I actually hadn't thought about it. I think that'd be an okay class feature for the fighter, distinguishing it from the rest.
Bump for ideas.
Bump for ideas.
I agree with the weapon groups idea, we could borrow them from UA like it has already been said.
I actually like how they work alot, especially since it makes the Exotic weapon proficiency depend on what other kind of weapons you can normally use, which is good for coherence.
Of course, we'd need to rework the base classes a bit so that we have a number of group proficiency points to distribute.
One important part, thought, is that I feel we still need a "simple" weapons group that possibly everyone can use, if nothing to group those really simple weapons (quarterstaff, dagger, dart, sling, thrown rocks and the like) that don't really have a reason to go anywhere else, or are simply too little or too minor to have a separate group.
I think this is a good idea. Whether it should be used for fighters only or for any class is a good question, but it would benefit fighters most nonetheless since they are the most likely to pick numerous feats including some weapon (group) specific feats.
Sky
I think this is a good idea. Whether it should be used for fighters only or for any class is a good question, but it would benefit fighters most nonetheless since they are the most likely to pick numerous feats including some weapon (group) specific feats.
It actually doesn't really benefit anyone in particular in my opinion... It just makes a certain kind of play more viable.
Fighters being able to pull out their best tricks with more than one weapon is just fluff, really: how many will they be using at one time? One or two at most, hence they don't really get much mechanical benefit.
Other classes will probably gain more versatility or, at most, more proficiencies, but they won't really gain much of an advantage... I mean: What good does it really do for a sorcerer to be able to use a greatsword without penalty?
I think it's fine to make it available for everyone, I doubt it really does anything to game balance.
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I prefer the notion of making a particular form of 'retraining' available to Fighters.
The dual-wielding Fighter might have a longsword and short sword when he gets his hand on a Sun Blade and suddenly realizes that he'd be *so* much more effective if he hadn't Specialized in Longsword, and could dual-wield Short Swords. Spend some time retraining and change that Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword) into short sword.
On the other hand, a seperate, higher-level set of Feats, that did allow Weapon Focus, or even Specialization, in a larger grouping of weapons, would also be neat (and far 'neater,' IMO, than the lame Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization feats).
It'd just be easier to make the feats themselves apply to weapon groups (rather than making it a fighter-only feature). Go-go better feats.
Don't really like it. Weapon focus should be open to everyone. Wizards use it for Rays. Going to put Ray spells into Weapon Groups?
Why not? Or why not make that a specific group? (Not like any wizard worth his salt is going to take Weapon Focus: Ray, mind you.)
I would say apply weapon focus to weapon groups, but weapon specialization to a single weapon. This is much more intuitive to me than applying both to entire weapon groups and will add a bit more flavor to combats who take focus in the same group. If two characters take Weapon Focus: Heavy Blades, one might take Weapon Specialization for Great Sword while another favors the slightly smaller Bastard Sword.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I'd say that one ought to pick one set and stick with it--either single weapon or weapon groups.
I'd say that one ought to pick one set and stick with it--either single weapon or weapon groups.
I see no reason you can't have both. Representing narrower and narrower focus of training. While a person may be well versed in a weapon group there is usually a specific weapon with which they prefer to train and fight. Applying Weapon Focus to broad groups and Weapon Specilization represents this detail of training. A wizard who is part of the samurai social class may take Weapon Focus: Heavy Blades to represent his training in kenjutsu despite his character class and Weapon Specialization: Katana to represent the heavy emphasis on that weapon found in kenjutsu.
It does not make the system more cumbersome. Simply change the description of the feats. And better represents actual weapon training techniques.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I think it would make the system more cumbersome: "So I have a +4 bonus when wielding swords, but I have an additional +1 to-hit when wielding a shortsword."
It's not a huge deal, I know, but it's one of the realism things that I would be happy to sacrifice.
Simply note it on the weapon stats area on the character sheet. No more cumbersome than keeping track of other feats and their use.
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Don't really like it. Weapon focus should be open to everyone. Wizards use it for Rays. Going to put Ray spells into Weapon Groups?Why not? Or why not make that a specific group? (Not like any wizard worth his salt is going to take Weapon Focus: Ray, mind you.)
I don't like it. What about rogues, rangers, paladins and certain kinds of cleric? They get locked out of weapon focus now?
You can't reorganize proficiencies by weapon groups because then you'll be dealing with weapons certain classes can't use in the groups and I don't want to see huge lists of what classes can and can't use when they can use 3 out of 5 weapon in a group.
I don't like it. What about rogues, rangers, paladins and certain kinds of cleric? They get locked out of weapon focus now?
You can't reorganize proficiencies by weapon groups because then you'll be dealing with weapons certain classes can't use in the groups and I don't want to see huge lists of what classes can and can't use when they can use 3 out of 5 weapon in a group.
Uh...when normally in 3e they could only use 1/5 of those weapons?
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Uh...when normally in 3e they could only use 1/5 of those weapons?
Saying all simple weapons, rapiers, shorts, shortbow for a rogue is a lot simpler and shorter. Now you're going to have to list any simple weapon that's grouped with weapons a rogue can't use. The list gets longer.
You're suggesting throwing the ENTIRE weapon proficiency system out for 1 class. Sorry, that doesn't work. I suggest hitting the DM for giving you a stupid piece of treasure that no one in the party can use.
How am I suggesting throwing out the weapon proficiency system again?
Uh...when normally in 3e they could only use 1/5 of those weapons?Saying all simple weapons, rapiers, shorts, shortbow for a rogue is a lot simpler and shorter. Now you're going to have to list any simple weapon that's grouped with weapons a rogue can't use. The list gets longer.
You're suggesting throwing the ENTIRE weapon proficiency system out for 1 class. Sorry, that doesn't work. I suggest hitting the DM for giving you a stupid piece of treasure that no one in the party can use.
He said nothing of the sort, your reaching there buddy.
Why couldn't you do something like this?
Under Weapon Training for the fighter add the line(s):
If the fighter has Weapon Focus in a weapon listed in his chosen group of weapons, the feat applies to all weapons in that group.
Do the same for specialization, imp. critical, etc.
That means the feats are left as they are for other classes but fighters now get a better benefit for them.
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One could simply make the option of applying Weapon Focus to a whole weapon group a fighter class feature. Other classes would still have the option of taking Weapon Focus, but the fighter would get more out of it. The Warblade has the ability to change the weapons weapon focus and a lot of other feats are applied to (they can even change their exotic weapon proficiencies), so I don't see how a little bit of extra flexibility would overpower the fighter.
An even better option would be adding this feature to Weapon Training in the following way:
"If you have taken Weapon Focus or a feat deriving from Weapon Focus for a weapon in your specialized group, the feat now applies to all weapons in the group. This also applies to feats taken at later levels."
EDIT: Kind of ninja'ed by Shane Leahy.