Double Slice.. off hand is better then primary?

[SirUrza]

If you JUST have Two Weapon Fighting and Double Slice... you're penalty is -2/0. That seems REALLY odd and really wrong to me... why is there a feat that makes your "off hand" attacks better then your "primary" hand? That seems backwards to me.

If Double Slice is intended to reduce the penalty of Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting, it needs to be worded differently and have atleast Improved as a Prerequisite.

[NekoMouser]

SirUrza wrote:

If you JUST have Two Weapon Fighting and Double Slice... you're penalty is -2/0. That seems REALLY odd and really wrong to me... why is there a feat that makes your "off hand" attacks better then your "primary" hand? That seems backwards to me.

If Double Slice is intended to reduce the penalty of Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting, it needs to be worded differently and have atleast Improved as a Prerequisite.

You were pimping this pretty hard over in the Swap thread, so I though I'd drop by and be neighborly.

I think the logic that goes into Double Slice works something like this.

1. The lighter weapon is generally the offhand weapon. Giving a bonus to hit with the less damaging lighter weapon isn't broken in comparison to ameliorating the penalties with both weapons. Thus, a lower prereq feat versus a higher prereq feat.

2. In the case where the offhand weapon isn't light (like a certain ashy elf emo boy and his scimitars or a Michelle Yeoh with a pair of Chinese Broadswords or even Conan with bastard sword and battleaxe combo), you effectively reduce the penalty for using two weapons if those weapons aren't light weapons.

3. Frankly, the real world logic is kind of behind this one. If I swing weapon A at you, you'll block it. If I swing weapon A at you while also swinging weapon B, you've got to move a little faster and more precisely to block B. The down side of this is that it assumes that you are fighting a single weapon user without a shield...but there is an overriding logic. Unlike Swap, which is merely a nod to a neat mechanic and nifty cinematics.

4. It adds a bonus which happens to alleviate a penalty. It doesn't just alleviate a penalty. This supports the "hold up weapon A and smack you with weapon B more easily" format. It also gets at the advantage of a hidden dagger in old swashbuckler movies without going to a feint mechanic.

Just my take on it.

[SirUrza]

Yes but if you weapon focus (and weapon finese depending on the weapons) using double daggers or double shortsword.. everything is a light weapon and your off-hand is still better then your primary hand. :)

[NekoMouser]

Of course you would be. See points 3 and 4 above.

I swing the first short sword/dagger/moldy bag of cabbage noodles at an opponent, and he tries to block it. Taking advantage of his shift in position to block my primary weapon, I increase my ability to hit with my offhand short sword/dagger/carrot.

It's that simple. Again, it doesn't take into account a number of additional possibilities (like the opponent having 2 weapons also...or a shield), but that's the nature of the to hit/AC system. You could as easily say that the swing from your primary weapon caused you to shift in a circular fashion, building momentum for your offhand attack and thereby better enabling it to penetrate a foes armor. *shrug*

Now if your question is about which one is really the "offhand", that's certainly a valid concern. I'd say whichever you make your second attack with...which can easily provide for fighting styles where you jab and then hit 'em with the moneymaker.

[Weylin Stormcrowe 798]

TO me the off-hand/secondary attack being higher than the primary attack says that the "primary attack" is the set up for a nasty unexpected blow from a secondary weapon. A weak attack with your long sword so you can knife your enemy between the ribs. A very solid and reliable tactic that is widely taught in combat schools. Easy to a see a barbarian fighting against a knight and going light with his sword just to get the chance to bury his hatchet in the knight's chest.

-Weylin Stormcrowe

[SirUrza]

Very nice work, can't wait to see the colorized version. :)

[Black Dow]

Weylin Stormcrowe 798 wrote:

TO me the off-hand/secondary attack being higher than the primary attack says that the "primary attack" is the set up for a nasty unexpected blow from a secondary weapon. A weak attack with your long sword so you can knife your enemy between the ribs. A very solid and reliable tactic that is widely taught in combat schools. Easy to a see a barbarian fighting against a knight and going light with his sword just to get the chance to bury his hatchet in the knight's chest.

-Weylin Stormcrowe

I've been struggling between the logic of this and the "colour" of the feat as I'm playing a two weapon fighter in our new campaign. Had kindof arrived at the same principle, but you've clarified it so much better Weylin - my fighter is a sword/handaxe wielder so that description of "burying the hatchet" definately sold Double Slice to me - many thanks.

BTW - SirUzra, was going to start this thread up myself, but you beat me to it - Weapon Swap thread, followed by this one - a fine example of "Two Weapon FIghting" if I ever saw it! Nice work lol.

[Weylin Stormcrowe 798]

Black Dow wrote:

Weylin Stormcrowe 798 wrote:

TO me the off-hand/secondary attack being higher than the primary attack says that the "primary attack" is the set up for a nasty unexpected blow from a secondary weapon. A weak attack with your long sword so you can knife your enemy between the ribs. A very solid and reliable tactic that is widely taught in combat schools. Easy to a see a barbarian fighting against a knight and going light with his sword just to get the chance to bury his hatchet in the knight's chest.

-Weylin Stormcrowe

I've been struggling between the logic of this and the "colour" of the feat as I'm playing a two weapon fighter in our new campaign. Had kindof arrived at the same principle, but you've clarified it so much better Weylin - my fighter is a sword/handaxe wielder so that description of "burying the hatchet" definately sold Double Slice to me - many thanks.

BTW - SirUzra, was going to start this thread up myself, but you beat me to it - Weapon Swap thread, followed by this one - a fine example of "Two Weapon FIghting" if I ever saw it! Nice work lol.

Always been a fan of long sword - hand axe combo myself...think that goes back to the old comic Arak: Son of Thunder where the title character used long sword and tomahawk. Tend to go with short sword and heavy gauntlet though myself (big fan of the Eisenfaust style from 7th Sea), especially with several close combat feats to deal with those pesky great swords and monsters with reach. So many interesting and tactically solid two weapon combinations out there.

-Weylin Stormcrowe

[SirUrza]

Black Dow wrote:

BTW - SirUzra, was going to start this thread up myself, but you beat me to it - Weapon Swap thread, followed by this one - a fine example of "Two Weapon FIghting" if I ever saw it! Nice work lol.

You're welcome. Now if we could just get Jason in them. :)