I am personally tired of people making baseless assumptions about other people and proclaiming their hatred for 4E while citing reasons that defy all reason and logic. I am tired of people creatively interpreting and selectively reading previews as an excuse for said hatred.
I don't even understand this statement. With the whole 'Countdaown to The Realms' thing there has been ALOT of official stuff put out about the hack job they are doing to cram FR into this whole "Points of Light" setting. It is butchery, it is unnessassary, especially when they then say that they are only putting out three books for the setting.
Me and many other Realms fans I know loved the setting the way it is.Enough people didn’t like the Realms the way it is that WotC felt it necessary to make some changes.
Except for the fact that WotC hasn't taken into acount one small factor. THe New York Times Best Sellers List. Fr has a long prolific history of novels, and the average reader isn't going to have a clue what the hell has happened, other than their favorite book setting is suddenly 100 yrs in the future and the world is jacked. This type of jump made me stop reading Michael Moorecock. WHat do you think it will do to Salvator? Not all of the novel readers are gamers.
They trashed YEARS of lore and history of the Realms all for a quick buck.They trashed certain parts of the setting that never really fit anyway all in an effort to revitalize the Realms and keep it profitable.
This is as much of a propaganda statement as anything Razz has said. Revitilize the Realms? The Realms was looking pretty good, at least in storyline. you know, minus those nasty crap modules about Cormyr and Shadowdale and the lot. They were bad. Mularond Didn't work in FR, don't use it. Maztica? As far as I know, it hasn't been used since 2E. I noticed that no one mentions Kartura since WotC has decided to use D&D to prop up LotFR by making it the oriental setting for FR.
It's NOT the same setting WE enjoyed. That's what you should do as a company, please your customers. Not base ideas on statistics for how to make more money quickly. Base designing game material for pleasing more customers so you will have them for a very long time and they can get others involved.You are not necessarily representative of all Realms fans. WotC designed the changes specifically to please their customers that were complaining and to get others involved.
Most of the people complaining about FR weren't FR fans! They were little biters sitting on the outside who were pissed that FR and not Greyhawk had been supported in 3.5. Realms fans wanted change? Not any of the ones that I know and play with. I know that's not saying alot, but those are still customers who won't be buying 4E Realms products.
I already know EVERYTHING about 4E Realms simply by reading everything on 4E D&D and 4E Realms collected on ENWorld and other sites.You, sir, have astonishingly more foresight than I.
I don't feel that that is saying much.
Wahoo! I wondered where you'd gone, Razz, old chap! It seems you were merely stewing before venting; like a sausage pricked with a fork.
Sebastrd pretty much covered the bases there.
P.S. Oh and it's "I (and other Realms fans I know) are appalled" or "I know that I and other Realms fans are appalled" (depending on whether you're trying to convey that you and your friends are appalled or that you and all other Realms fans in the world are appalled.
Nice condecending tone. It's no wonder he's so vitriolic to you.
Nice condecending tone. It's no wonder he's so vitriolic to you.Wahoo! I wondered where you'd gone, Razz, old chap! It seems you were merely stewing before venting; like a sausage pricked with a fork.
Sebastrd pretty much covered the bases there.
P.S. Oh and it's "I (and other Realms fans I know) are appalled" or "I know that I and other Realms fans are appalled" (depending on whether you're trying to convey that you and your friends are appalled or that you and all other Realms fans in the world are appalled.
Yes, truly Fabes is the "reason" why Razz rants the way he does.
Edit:
There has been some mention made by previous posters of 'Realms Shaking Events' having occured in the fiction lines on a regular basis, but very few of them left me with the perception of the bad-guys having come out on top.
That's because up until this point, Fr hasn't been crammed into this new "Points of Light" world mind set. The idea is that the world is a dark and evil place with a few little points of light (insert 'Good') lef in it. Instead of a ballance, the scale has now been tipped way into the favor of evil (Except the area of The Sword Coast which is where their cash cow Drizzt is located.
There appears to be problems with the quotes. My statement was directed at Razz. Sebastrd, I actually agree with a lot of the stuff you said, its just the quote block got messed up.
That being said, a couple quotes above werent by me.No worries. I was having some problems, too. I had to retype my whole post earlier because it got eaten.
Another useful piece of information: Razz is irrational, unintelligible, and generally full of s!*~. He's really not worth responding to and has been banned from just about every other D&D board out there. My suspicion is that he did not properly clean the tinfoil when making his uber-foil hat and some sort of fungus got into his ear canal and found a new home in his brain. He's posted the drivel about how TSR respected D&D a number of times (which is hilarious on so many fronts it's hard to even take as cogent thought by a sentient being).
Anyway, Razz = Troll, and not a very smart one at that.
Comming form someone who usually just belittles and shouts down those who don't agree with him, this statment sould mean nothing. Razz has as much right to voice his oppinion as ayone on this board. If you don't like his oppinos Sebastion, scroll over them.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Comming form someone who usually just belittles and shouts down those who don't agree with him, this statment sould mean nothing. Razz has as much right to voice his oppinion as ayone on this board. If you don't like his oppinos Sebastion, scroll over them.
Ditto.
Btw, how'd it go when you picked horses in the last edition change? It's always hard to take criticism regarding 4e from someone who prefers 2e to 3e.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Except for the fact that WotC hasn't taken into acount one small factor. THe New York Times Best Sellers List. Fr has a long prolific history of novels, and the average reader isn't going to have a clue what the hell has happened, other than their favorite book setting is suddenly 100 yrs in the future and the world is jacked. This type of jump made me stop reading Michael Moorecock. WHat do you think it will do to Salvator? Not all of the novel readers are gamers.
Oh really? How do you know they didn't take it into account? Were you there at the meeting where they made the decision? Or is this just another example of how much smarter you are than WotC that you know the correct decision without the information they have at their disposal.
Comming form someone who usually just belittles and shouts down those who don't agree with him, this statment sould mean nothing. Razz has as much right to voice his oppinion as ayone on this board. If you don't like his oppinos Sebastion, scroll over them.There appears to be problems with the quotes. My statement was directed at Razz. Sebastrd, I actually agree with a lot of the stuff you said, its just the quote block got messed up.
That being said, a couple quotes above werent by me.No worries. I was having some problems, too. I had to retype my whole post earlier because it got eaten.
Another useful piece of information: Razz is irrational, unintelligible, and generally full of s!*~. He's really not worth responding to and has been banned from just about every other D&D board out there. My suspicion is that he did not properly clean the tinfoil when making his uber-foil hat and some sort of fungus got into his ear canal and found a new home in his brain. He's posted the drivel about how TSR respected D&D a number of times (which is hilarious on so many fronts it's hard to even take as cogent thought by a sentient being).
Anyway, Razz = Troll, and not a very smart one at that.
Just like you scrolled over Sebastian's comment?
I don't even understand this statement. With the whole 'Countdaown to The Realms' thing there has been ALOT of official stuff put out about the hack job they are doing to cram FR into this whole "Points of Light" setting.
I rest my case. Rich Baker has specifically said they are not turning FR into a "Points of Light" setting. That hasn't stopped you or anyone else from accusing them of it. So you just proved my point. Thanks.
Minor Nitpick: If you're going to rail against the 4E changes and claim to be such a fan of the Realms, you really ought to spell the proper names correctly.
I don't even understand this statement. With the whole 'Countdaown to The Realms' thing there has been ALOT of official stuff put out about the hack job they are doing to cram FR into this whole "Points of Light" setting.I rest my case. Rich Baker has specifically said they are not turning FR into a "Points of Light" setting. That hasn't stopped you or anyone else from accusing them of it. So you just proved my point. Thanks.
Minor Nitpick: If you're going to rail against the 4E changes and claim to be such a fan of the Realms, you really ought to spell the proper names correctly.
What about trying to get reasonably current and/or correct information?
Is this the hamster thread? I forgot.
Well, *squeak* anyway.
P.S. Condescending isn't me. Genuine desire for clarity, yes. Condescending, never. I couldn't do my job if I was.
Is this the hamster thread? I forgot.
Certainly seems like it.
Squeak!
I live in the UK, and I do not read the New York Times. Could you please clarify for me whether or not to date Forgotten Realms novels have been as popular according to the Best sellers List of the New York Times as Blackdragon states, and how representative that is of the market in booksales from major retail outlets or by internet over there in the US?
I'm not sure about all or even most of the Realms novels, but Salvatore’s most recent original hardcover, The Two Swords, Book III of The Hunter’s Blade Trilogy (October 2004) debuted at # 1 on The Wall Street Journal best-seller list and at # 4 on The New York Times best-seller list. Many of the Drizzt books appear on the NYT's best seller list.
That said, the NYT's best seller list is actually made up of several lists (different genres typically get their own list), so I'm not sure if there's a permanent log with exactly which list a book was listed on.
This also might be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestseller
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If it doesn't sell well, they're not going to just change it back. They may stop publishing Realms products.
They aren't going to publish FR stuff anyway.. the new plan is 3 products per campaign world and done. Campaign Sourcebook, Player's Guide, some sort of adventure thingie and on to the next. I don't really see what the point in gloating about the destruction of something other folks enjoyed quite a lot.
The 4e FR are very clearly radically different and unnecessarily so. I don't like the FR...I especially disliked the clone zones like Maztica and Mulhorand. But I'm not going to start buying it because they got rid of those things and I doubt many other non FR folks are either. But a lot of folks who are already buying the FR are livid about the changes.
That's just dumb. And if they continue in that vein when they do Greyhawk, Planescape, Mystara, Dark Sun, or whatever else that'll be even more folks pissed off for no particular gain.
Those are some good points. The 4E FR changes seem designed to appease people who already dislike the setting. "Firing" loyal long-time fans in the hopes that people who have disliked the setting will suddenly become rabid FR product consumers seems like a very stupid thing to do. It seems to be the marketing philosphy behind 4E FR and 4th edition in general. I just don't see the wisdom behind "Fire your current loyal audience, and hope you "hire" more than you fire."
Probably because thats not the business plan. From the sounds of it, most people who have played 4th Edition want to play 4th Edition. Its more of a "maintain the current fanbase while trying to get new people," kind of plan. The didnt "fire" anyone.
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That may be what they wanted, but I think they are in for a rude awakening. Many of their customers have been completely alienated everything related to 4E. They seem to more than willing to loose loyal customers to attract a few new, younger players that may or may not stick with the hobby. It's good to try to attract younger players to grow the fanbase, but it's downright silly to do it at the expense of long-time, loyal customers who spend a lot of disposable income on your products.
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Probably because thats not the business plan. From the sounds of it, most people who have played 4th Edition want to play 4th Edition. Its more of a "maintain the current fanbase while trying to get new people," kind of plan. The didnt "fire" anyone.
Let's face it : the loyal fans that bought tons of their products these past years have everything to blame themselves for this situation(myself included).
I endeavoured to buy everything I could get my hands on so that D&D would continue (I remember TSR demise).
That means that I also bought some badly written recent products, that did not quite meet the standards I expected to see. Such as races of Boredom, Heroes of silliness, the "mini but too big" handbook, ...
Not that the idea of these product was, bad, but the actual execution looked rushed to me, and the percentage of the content that I actually wanted to use in my games close to nil.
All this for the sake of the collection. So yes, I (we) gave them bad habits.
So it's quite fair for them to believe they will pull this yet again, as they have had no negative trends so far on this score.
Of course, the awakening, in some six months one year ... might bite.
Is this the hamster thread? I forgot.
Well, *squeak* anyway.
P.S. Condescending isn't me. Genuine desire for clarity, yes. Condescending, never. I couldn't do my job if I was.
Cheery in here, isn't it?
Did you know hamsters eat their young? It's true!
Did you know hamsters eat their young? It's true!
Sadly I had hamsters and have seen that horror first hand when I was 8.
Mommy sitting there chewing the heads off her babies... yum.Very formative. That was the year I started playing D&D.
Kruel.. so much falls into place now.
Sque- munch, munch.
Did you know hamsters eat their young? It's true!Sadly I had hamsters and have seen that horror first hand when I was 8.
Mommy sitting there chewing the heads off her babies... yum.Very formative. That was the year I started playing D&D.
Had something simliar happen in my elementary school when the class hamster gave birth- one moment there were 4 babies, the next there were 3, and then there were none. It was damn scary when some of the older kids caught on to what was happening.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Whew. Glad someone bumped this thread.
I had a hamster that used to play D&D with us. He'd run around the table and chew on character sheets. We fed him cookies and soda. His name was Spew.
And an apology for Razz:
Sorry for the harsh words above. You're nutty, but I crossed the line and was just mean and rude. My apologies. I'll still accuse you of wearing a tinfoil hat, particularly when you talk about TSR being a good steward for D&D (are you nuts?!?!), but I should not and will not take it any further in the future and apologize for doing so in this thread.
Good luck with 3e, hope you love it and play it till the day they pry the d20 out of your cold dead hand.
Edit PS - this is in spoilers more to keep from reigniting the issue so that the current whimsical nature of the thread can continue than to keep the apology hidden.
And for Charles Evans
You're becoming my own personal Jimminy Cricket. It's scary and I will someday take my revenge by using you as bait to catch a giant whale. Be warned.
That may be what they wanted, but I think they are in for a rude awakening. Many of their customers have been completely alienated everything related to 4E. They seem to more than willing to loose loyal customers to attract a few new, younger players that may or may not stick with the hobby. It's good to try to attract younger players to grow the fanbase, but it's downright silly to do it at the expense of long-time, loyal customers who spend a lot of disposable income on your products.
I think that the portion of players who play 3rd Edition and dont want anything to do with 4th Edition are a minority. I also think that the minority percentage decreased during the playtest as Wizards made changes to make the game more fun.
It makes no sense to lose a LOT of players on the off chance that a "few" new players will hop on, and I think that they have succeeded in making a fun game that most current D&D players will enjoy in addition to making it known to other people.
I have this tendency, as of late, to make my post and try not to read any replies to it because I know for some reason everytime I post, no matter how simple and gentle it may be, SOMEONE finds something wrong with it. Because if I read the post, I feel the urge to defend myself, but then that's never taken seriously so I simply ignore reading the post in the first place. Apologies to those I have yet to reply too. It's not that you've shut me up, I just refuse to retort or acknowledge to such hateful people. You're giving me similar reasons to avoid Paizo boards entirely for the same reason I avoided Wizards forums and ENWorld's (technically).
I am thinking of probably changing my screen name after all these years. It seems no one can make a strong opinion AGAINST something without being harassed by those who PASSIONATELY LOVE that very same thing. And those people are the "good guys" on the boards?
It's sad, really, that when a biased positive review or a strong positive opinion post is made on 4E (or anything), no one belittles that person or even blinks twice. But when a NEGATIVE review/post/opinion or whatever is made that person unintentionally began a flame war...
So...who's really the bad guy here? Me for having my reasons to hate 4E and 4E Realms, or the very people clawing at me for blood? Really, folks, try reading your replies very closely and you'll see what I mean.
From the few replies I skimmed through (I end up viewing a few as I scroll down), no I am not saying TSR was treating D&D better. I am saying TSR treated D&D much better in SOME ways than WotC is treating D&D.
And, yes, what I meant by me and Realms fans was I meant me and every D&D player that I know from my hobby shop or who I hang out with and many people on other forums besides this one (such as Candlekeep's forums).
Well, go ahead, I am waiting for another vitrolic reply to be made to this one, even though I attacked no one in particular and made a very intelligible reply. But it won't matter, after all, because I am "that Razz guy" and it's just immediate hate once any reply, no matter how tame, I make is read.
A prize to the first one that spews the first breath of fire! :D
Minor Nitpick: If you're going to rail against the 4E changes and claim to be such a fan of the Realms, you really ought to spell the proper names correctly.
Wow! That hurts. It's a deep arguement. Like aruging with my eleven year old nephew. A typo? Last thing I would want to do is offend you.
I have this tendency, as of late, to make my post and try not to read any replies to it because I know for some reason everytime I post, no matter how simple and gentle it may be, SOMEONE finds something wrong with it. Because if I read the post, I feel the urge to defend myself, but then that's never taken seriously so I simply ignore reading the post in the first place. Apologies to those I have yet to reply too. It's not that you've shut me up, I just refuse to retort or acknowledge to such hateful people. You're giving me similar reasons to avoid Paizo boards entirely for the same reason I avoided Wizards forums and ENWorld's (technically).
I am thinking of probably changing my screen name after all these years. It seems no one can make a strong opinion AGAINST something without being harassed by those who PASSIONATELY LOVE that very same thing. And those people are the "good guys" on the boards?
It's sad, really, that when a biased positive review or a strong positive opinion post is made on 4E (or anything), no one belittles that person or even blinks twice. But when a NEGATIVE review/post/opinion or whatever is made that person unintentionally began a flame war...
So...who's really the bad guy here? Me for having my reasons to hate 4E and 4E Realms, or the very people clawing at me for blood? Really, folks, try reading your replies very closely and you'll see what I mean.
From the few replies I skimmed through (I end up viewing a few as I scroll down), no I am not saying TSR was treating D&D better. I am saying TSR treated D&D much better in SOME ways than WotC is treating D&D.
And, yes, what I meant by me and Realms fans was I meant me and every D&D player that I know from my hobby shop or who I hang out with and many people on other forums besides this one (such as Candlekeep's forums).
Well, go ahead, I am waiting for another vitrolic reply to be made to this one, even though I attacked no one in particular and made a very intelligible reply. But it won't matter, after all, because...
Well if half of what you spewed out made sense or you could back it up with facts no one would be "Clawing" at you as you put it. Stop acting liek your some g@+*~~n matyr and a g#*!*#n innocent. Now wheres my g!!$#@n prize?
Had something simliar happen in my elementary school when the class hamster gave birth- one moment there were 4 babies, the next there were 3, and then there were none. It was damn scary when some of the older kids caught on to what was happening.
Nothing like a headless baby hamster and mommy with her cheeks stuffed full.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I have this tendency, as of late, to make my post and try not to read any replies to it because I know for some reason everytime I post, no matter how simple and gentle it may be, SOMEONE finds something wrong with it. ...
So...who's really the bad guy here? Me for having my reasons to hate 4E and 4E Realms, or the very people clawing at me for blood? Really, folks, try reading your replies very closely and you'll see what I mean.
Hi, Razz. I am, myself, not switching to 4th Edition.
But you *do* realize that you're in the 4th Edition section of the messageboards, right? This is the place that 4th Edition afficianados come to talk about what they like about the game, ask rules questions, and support one another.
It isn't neutral ground.
Your posts are analogous to the people who interrupt church services and argue loudly against the religious dogmas. You're going into a football stadium and yelling that there's something wrong with people who don't like baseball.
If you think that the people in my examples are acting like jack-asses, I'd be inclined to agree.
Well if half of what you spewed out made sense or you could back it up with facts no one would be "Clawing" at you as you put it. Stop acting liek your some g%*$%#n matyr and a g&%&~$n innocent. Now wheres my g!#+!#n prize?
Emphasis mine. This is exactly what I was thinking. You label people who like 4th Edition as children, idiots, whatever. You complain that the designers dont know whats going on, dont give a crap about their fans, and have no idea what D&D is. You make all of these assumptions without any backup or proof, and THEN try to come out like YOU'RE the victim?
To be fair, you're not the only 4th Edition hater that makes all these irrational claims, you're just the only one that apparently thinks he didnt do anything wrong.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Trying to steer back to the topic:
In some other threads, people have asked what the "essence" of Greyhawk is. I have the same question for the Forgotten Realms. What do you think is essential to the flavor of the Realms?
for me, it's the organizations --the Harpers, the Red Wizards of Thay-- and an emphasis on the "wha-hoo"-ness of magic --Seven Sisters, Spellfire, weave versus shadow weave-- regardless of the power of the effects. Magic in the Realms ought to be fun!
What do you think is essential to the flavor of the Realms?
Ed Greenwood. :-D
Seriously, Ed Greenwood! I don't care what Realms edition he writes for as long as it contains his typical mystical prose and magic he's so damn good at describing. If all Ed, and writers like Ed, did was churn out "Elminster's Ecologies"- level material which describes in detail new and original Realms locations and adventure locales, I'll buy them.
The crunch of any edition of the FR no longer matters to me. No matter how much they try and brainwash me into thinking they're improving the game/campaign setting's mechanics, that's not where the game is at for me. It's the content.
for me, it's the organizations --the Harpers, the Red Wizards of Thay-- and an emphasis on the "wha-hoo"-ness of magic --Seven Sisters, Spellfire, weave versus shadow weave-- regardless of the power of the effects. Magic in the Realms ought to be fun!
Agreed, though not just the magic.
In 2nd edition & 3rd edition (I have no experience of 1st edition Forgotten Realms) part of the essence of the Forgotten Realms was for me that all those crazy secret organisations, archmages, churches, powerful rulers, and adventuring parties (including PCs) all managed to keep one another in check to the point where normal people could get on with their lives.
As far as I can determine thus far, whatever the essence of the 4E rendition of the Forgotten Realms may turn out to be, that essence is likely to be severely lacking in those 2nd & 3rd edition defining qualities, in both how it purportedly got to and where it currently is.
I'm currently reading Swordmage, and I would say it still has all those crazy organizations, powerful villians, etc. All the Spellplague elements actually adds to the overall mystery and magical undertone of the setting, such as inherited spellscars that glow blue, plaguechanged areas that defy normal logic, etc.
I'm no FR aficionado and I'm only basing this information on 100 pages out of Swordmage so far, but I would say the flavor of FR is only somewhat changed. And I could see the natural progression of how the FR setting has become the Spellplagued world. The backstory I admit is a little silly (Abeir and Toril getting torn apart or some such nonsense), but I still like the world and some of its changed elements.
I think if the changes happened as a product of the novels and not just an excuse to fit FR into a 4e framework, people would have been more forgiving...well, a little maybe. For me personally, I like the old Realms and the new Realms as two different but fascinating fantasy settings.
I'm actually a huge Birthright and Dark Sun fan, don't much care for the Realms, but I've been reading this thread off and on to see what kinds of changes were actually made.
Hopefully my favorite campaign settings will not be changed quite as drastically as the Realms were.
Dark Sun will be of special interest to me, as it will obviously need psionics and I'm really hoping dragonborn, tieflings, and eladrins get dumped to make room for thri-kreen, muls, half-giants, pterrans, and aarakocra. I don't wanna see a repeat of the Paizo Dark Sun fiasco that appeared in Dragon and Dungeon magazine some time ago.
I don't wanna see a repeat of the Paizo Dark Sun fiasco that appeared in Dragon and Dungeon magazine some time ago.
Shudder,shudder gods that was bad so very bad
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't wanna see a repeat of the Paizo Dark Sun fiasco that appeared in Dragon and Dungeon magazine some time ago.
Okay, I'll admit ignorance here. I think I have the DRAGON and DUNGEON "Dark Sun" themed issues, as well as some of the Dark Sun articles in a couple of "where are those settings now?" issues.
What were the problems? Did those issues suggest changes to the settings that went beyond those necessary to accomodate the 3rd Edition rules?
yes very much beyond. And they were bad changes at that. I mean paladins in dark suns was just one of the many many flaws in that issue.
It was a perfect example of crowbarring a setting into a new edition of the rules.
The LG paladins in dark sun was pretty bad, then they had bearded dwarves, and medium-sized half-giants and thri-kreen. Metal weapons became way to easy to obtain. There were other problems, but it was definitely the worst conversion I had seen for a while.
The ideas they had for writing in the new psionics handbook races was actually not that bad though. The fluff made a lot of sense and definitely could have happened.