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Am preparing to run CoCT in the near future and having been mulling over the Queen issue. Bearing in mind, I haven't seen the next few installments one thing that has been bothering me a bit is the Queen. It might be from knowing roughly the arc of the path but she seems all too obvious as the real villain. Her reputation, history, attitude etc. makes her the #1 suspect for the king's death, and the troubles in the city. I'm thinking of ways to conceal her villainy, maybe even make her appear as a noble queen, or at least the damsel in distress. That way when she is revealed to be the demonic creature that she is it comes as a nice sharp twist. To quote Sanjuro "The worst one is beyond your imagination".
The principal problem is that the rioting begins as the citizens take umbrage to the idea of this gold-digger taking the throne. Also the framing of the painter is an all too obvious ruse and even the briefing given by the PCs by the Watch should set alarm bells ringing as to the Queen's role. So the principal problem is how to reframe those events without major surgery to the adventure? Any thoughts?
As far as I can tell from the first installment, immediate suspicion of the Queen is expected, natural, and necessary for the plot of the Adventure Path to unfold. As you say, citizens immediately take umbrage with the thought of the gold-digger taking the throne - and yes, she's the obvious candidate for an assassination, being one of the people with the most to gain.
Why do you want to change this? She might make an even better villain if you let it play out the way it is. I imagine there's going to be a lot this campaign spent wishing the Queen dead, dead, dead, but being unable to accomplish it in a just and righteous way (if at all) and that's what's going to make finally defeating her so worthwhile. The feeling that everything is wrong and justice isn't being upheld in the city is what will drive the PCs throughout the whole adventure path, unless I miss my guess entirely.
The best villains don't always have to be accompanied by never-saw-it-coming double-takes, moments before the final showdown. Those can be fun, yes. But I don't think that's what this adventure path intends to be... I think trying to make it so might necessitate a lot of editing going forward. Also, keep in mind that even though the PCs (like a lot of the citizens of Korvosa) may suspect the Queen of treachery, no one knows what is truly driving her. So early in the adventure path, even the DMs don't know what's truly driving her, but it's probably going to be something shocking and evil and cool, so I think that should be enough.
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The principal problem is that the rioting begins as the citizens take umbrage to the idea of this gold-digger taking the throne. Also the framing of the painter is an all too obvious ruse and even the briefing given by the PCs by the Watch should set alarm bells ringing as to the Queen's role. So the principal problem is how to reframe those events without major surgery to the adventure? Any thoughts?
I'm planning on portraying her in the exact opposite way: The Pcs get to meet the queen and interact with her. I'm treating her as having the riots as part of her plans
my advise is use her to make the PCs believe her. If not her, you have her personal guard escorting them back and forth through the castle. have her mention how the queen has changed for the better over the past few months.
Creative Director
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As the campaign is constructed... by the time the PCs finish the first adventure, they should suspect that Queen Ileosa is up to something, that she's got SOMETHING to do with what's going on in Korvosa. The fact that Blackjack, the city's infamous "defender of the common man" swoops in to save Trinia and deny the queen her execution certainly should throw suspicion on her (and perhaps a little on Blackjack as well).
By the end of the second adventure... the PCs are VERY LIKELY to know that, beyond any shadow of a doubt, Queen Ileosa is the Bad Girl of the campaign. The rest of the campaign actually kind of depends on the fact that:
A: The PCs know Queen Ileosa is the bad guy.
B: That attempting to assassinate her is a good way to get themselves killed. In fact, at the start of the third adventure...
So basically, your job as GM of this campaign isn't to prevent the PCs from becoming suspicious of the queen. They SHOULD be. They just shouldn't be convinced she's a SUPER VILLAIN until they near the end of the 2nd adventure. Your job is to keep the PCs from trying to do something foolish like attempting to assassinate her before Adventure #6. You've got several tools to help you do this; the Harrow readings can steer the PCs away from such attempts; the advice of NPC allies can help, and certain events that occur to show off the Queen's power and the strength of her allies (particularly Sabina) should do the trick.
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The principal problem is that the rioting begins as the citizens take umbrage to the idea of this gold-digger taking the throne. Also the framing of the painter is an all too obvious ruse and even the briefing given by the PCs by the Watch should set alarm bells ringing as to the Queen's role. So the principal problem is how to reframe those events without major surgery to the adventure? Any thoughts?
Darken Trina's reputation a little and give her a hidden or not so hidden connection as a union sympathiser and she becomes a bit more of a believable assassin.
Blackjack stopping the execution could also be spun as the act of a lawless unionist.
Basically, everything remains the same, but the queen gets some better public relations and a very visible scapegoat (the sollies).
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We played our first session, and got through the players' first meeting with the Queen. Not only do they not suspect her, they think she's great.
At first, I thought her prepared speech was a little too flowery. But I decided to go with it. Listen to politicians speak (it's an election year in the States - you've got plenty of examples.) There is a cadence to a political speech, and I used that cadence, plus a few hand gestures (only a few, but quite pronounced when used) to make it sound like she was speaking for an audience.
The players loved it. They know the queen is using them as a symbol, and they're fine with it- they figure it'll start them on the adventure, and give them a bit of fame to boot. They actually feel a bit sorry for the Queen, having such a hard time early on, and they hope to help her just like she's helping them.
Yes, I suspect the scene at the end with Trinia will be a give-away. That's fine. I'm really looking forward to it.
Drew Garrett
Also, be aware that the more sophisticated and experienced the player is, the more they will consider the queen a red herring. They will think that the DM must be dangling the queen in front of us to distract us from what's really going on! Harry Potter style.
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To the OP I'd suggest also you could easily put a few "ministers" next to the Queen whenever the PCs meet with her. They could be sufficiently suspicious-looking (constantly leaning in to whisper to the Queen, "translating" what the Queen "really means", giving the impression they are really calling the shots, etc) people to the PCs ala "Wormtongue" to distract from a direct suspicion of the Queen whilst still incorporating the idea that the seat of power is itself tainted.
This may even be nothing more than an affectation the Queen is using to deflect suspicion, though personally I don't see her as being that subtle.
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I actually like that aspect of this campaign. In RotRL, for example, Karzoug is introduced at the end of #4, and there isnt much time to grow to hate him before the big battle. GIving the players someone to hate nearly from the get-go might make an interesting change.
That's exactly the point. We want players to pretty much know who the main bad girl is in this campaign as early as possible, but we also want to give them the opportunity to discover who she is during the course of play.
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As the campaign is constructed... by the time the PCs finish the first adventure, they should suspect that Queen Ileosa is up to something, that she's got SOMETHING to do with what's going on in Korvosa. The fact that Blackjack, the city's infamous "defender of the common man" swoops in to save Trinia and deny the queen her execution certainly should throw suspicion on her (and perhaps a little on Blackjack as well).
By the end of the second adventure... the PCs are VERY LIKELY to know that, beyond any shadow of a doubt, Queen Ileosa is the Bad Girl of the campaign. The rest of the campaign actually kind of depends on the fact that:
A: The PCs know Queen Ileosa is the bad guy.
B: That attempting to assassinate her is a good way to get themselves killed. In fact, at the start of the third adventure...** spoiler omitted **
So basically, your job as GM of this campaign isn't to prevent the PCs from becoming suspicious of the queen. They SHOULD be. They just shouldn't be convinced she's a SUPER VILLAIN until they near the end of the 2nd adventure. Your job is to keep the PCs from trying to do something foolish like attempting to assassinate her before Adventure #6. You've got several tools to help you do this; the Harrow readings can steer the PCs away from such attempts; the advice of NPC allies can help, and certain events that occur to show off the Queen's power and the strength of her allies (particularly Sabina) should do the trick.
Thanks for the reply. As I mentioned I've only got #1 so far. Judging from the summaries in the pathfinder section I was a bit under the impression that the Queen was only definitely revealed as the real problem sometime in #3 as then #4 begins with the Queen's agents actively hunting the party. Jumping to conclusions I suppose. So hopefully when I get #2 or am able to download it that will make more sense. Either way I'll probably wait until I have at least #3 in my hands before running the AP.
I actually like that aspect of this campaign. In RotRL, for example, Karzoug is introduced at the end of #4, and there isnt much time to grow to hate him before the big battle. GIving the players someone to hate nearly from the get-go might make an interesting change.That's exactly the point. We want players to pretty much know who the main bad girl is in this campaign as early as possible, but we also want to give them the opportunity to discover who she is during the course of play.
As I mentioned in the thread about the Guide to Korvosa, the problem I am expecting to have is convincing a party of do-gooders to want to help the Queen. I'm thinking they'll be so suspicious, so early, that they may decide to dispose of the brooch instead of returning it. And I'm skeptical they would answer a general call for the help of adventurers from the Queen. I've got time to work something out, but my players are fairly sharp, and I need something that won't make them feel like they're being railroaded into the plot.
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Creative Director
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As I mentioned in the thread about the Guide to Korvosa, the problem I am expecting to have is convincing a party of do-gooders to want to help the Queen. I'm thinking they'll be so suspicious, so early, that they may decide to dispose of the brooch instead of returning it. And I'm skeptical they would answer a general call for the help of adventurers from the Queen. I've got time to work something out, but my players are fairly sharp, and I need something that won't make them feel like they're being railroaded into the plot.
If that's the case, that's fine, actually. The brooch-returing scene is merely in the adventure to give the PCs a chance to meet Ileosa near the start. If they're pre-disposed to not like her and want not to go meet her, that's perfectly okay.
You can then just proceed after they finish with Gaedren by running an encounter or two with riots and other stuff; make sure one of those early ones is the encounter where they meet Grau. If/when they help him out, he'll certainly point them toward Cressida Kroft anyway.
And if that don't work, then you can simply have the inital riot die down as scheduled, and then have the PCs hear through the grapevine/from bulletin boards/whatever that the Korvosan Guard is looking for brave souls to aid in taking care of some jobs. However it works, you just need to get the PCs to go visit Cressida, at which point she can send them out to All the World's Meat.
We've given you a LOT of material between the Guide to Korvosa, the Player's Guide, and Pathfinder itself to draw upon if the PCs don't play nice with the adventure's plot, in any case. Of course... if you have players who HATE being railroaded almost as much as they HATE the mere concept that they MIGHT be railroaded... you probably shouldn't be running pre-made adventures for them anyway. You should instead have a big fat campaign setting and a big mountain of adventure hooks, maps, and stat blocks for anything you might need. And then just turn them loose in Korvosa and have the events of the adventure just unfold around them.
We've given you a LOT of material between the Guide to Korvosa, the Player's Guide, and Pathfinder itself to draw upon if the PCs don't play nice with the adventure's plot, in any case. Of course... if you have players who HATE being railroaded almost as much as they HATE the mere concept that they MIGHT be railroaded... you probably shouldn't be running pre-made adventures for them anyway. You should instead have a big fat campaign setting and a big mountain of adventure hooks, maps, and stat blocks for anything you might need. And then just turn them...
Indeed, there is a LOT of stuff to work with so far, and it's good stuff too. The players know this is a pre-made. They just dislike it when I have to needle them back on track in a way that seems counter to what their characters would do. I no longer have the time to develop my own campaign, though I might get pressed to do that once the Pathfinder RPG is out. From the DMs perspective, I WOULD like them to meet the Queen early, because I can completely see how that's going to set things up for later. But one of the players has already asked about the Guide to Korvosa, and I'm still not sure I want them to read some parts of it yet.
I would think things like Queen Ileosa would be the least of your problems. I'm still trying to figure out how to prevent them from going down the side tunnels that are not in the scope of the adventure in the Ossuary.
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I would think things like Queen Ileosa would be the least of your problems. I'm still trying to figure out how to prevent them from going down the side tunnels that are not in the scope of the adventure in the Ossuary.
Hehehe, I'm with you there :P everyone loves those "Not covered in the scope of this adventure" moments. Mostly if they haven't hit level 4 yet I'm going to give them a few random sewer/undead encounters whilst making it obvious that they're basically wandering randomly around the Vaults and should really get back if they want to get anything done, else I'll have them open onto empty sewers pretty quickly and they can splash about in unidentified liquid to their hearts' content until they get bored and head back into the action. If they still refuse to stop poking about, I'll just... cry at them or something :P.
I must admit I wouldn't change Ileosa at all, I find her wonderfully psychotic (especially after reading PF8), and I think it'll be really interesting seeing just how the PCs suspicions of her develop and what they want to do about it.
I would think things like Queen Ileosa would be the least of your problems. I'm still trying to figure out how to prevent them from going down the side tunnels that are not in the scope of the adventure in the Ossuary.
Actually, those types of things I can handle, and I've often had to over the years. Those types of things are smaller scope. Most of Korvosa is riddled with vaults and tunnels afterall. Dealing with the Queen is dealing with a major plot element, a key villain, and a vital first stage story hook all at once. It's a pretty important part of setting up the entire AP really... well, depending on the players, it is.
Speaking of clouding up obvious plot points...What have people been doing to protect the identity of Blackjack? To my players (who've all watched Zorro), it won't be hard to guess which of the NPCs they're introduced to is the masked hero.
What I did is give them a red herring in the form of Grau Soldano. Rather than introduce him in a drunken stupor, I had him engage our rogue (who was a former student at Orsini's Academy) in a friendly rooftop Shingles duel. By giving him a bit of a flamboyant death wish from his troubles with Sabine, he makes a perfect candidate for Black Jack...and hopefully a bit more of a surprise when the real reveal occurs.
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Creative Director
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Speaking of clouding up obvious plot points...What have people been doing to protect the identity of Blackjack? To my players (who've all watched Zorro), it won't be hard to guess which of the NPCs they're introduced to is the masked hero.
What I did is give them a red herring in the form of Grau Soldano. Rather than introduce him in a drunken stupor, I had him engage our rogue (who was a former student at Orsini's Academy) in a friendly rooftop Shingles duel. By giving him a bit of a flamboyant death wish from his troubles with Sabine, he makes a perfect candidate for Black Jack...and hopefully a bit more of a surprise when the real reveal occurs.
Spoiler!
I'm not sure Charles. Evil is as evil does, and right as the AP starts there's regicide and other horrific actions.
The best way to 'conceal' the Queen as the true villain is to run some adventures before the AP events occur and throw in some red herrings from the other Houses. But personally, once it hits the fan I want the PCs to have a villain they hate and they don't kill in one or two sessions after they meet her.
And who really cares if everyone suspects the gold-digger killed her husband? The question is 'now what?' Nobody knows just how evil she is, and what she's planning (if anything). You can still have courtly intrigue and mysteries despite knowing that the Queen is 'evil'.
As a player, it'd be awesome to suspect that the BBEG of the campaign is The Queen. First, it'd be a great "Oh, Crap!" moment as you realize just how hard that's going to be. Second, I've never been in a campaign where I've suspected the villain from the very outset. Third, it gives you all the incentive in the world to recruit allies as they come along, since you need social power to pull this off and survive.
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In my own games I've often found that introducing an obvious villain is the last thing the players expect. They'll drive themselves crazy overthinking things, looking for the man behind the curtain. If I run CotCT, they'll probably deduce that the Queen has been mind controlled and that a fellow PC is somehow the assassin.
Obvious villains make players very, very paranoid. It's a good thing.