I am wondering how many people out there really think the old versions of these feats were a problem?
In many of our games we have used both these feats and neither of them ever seem to have been abused and not functioned how they seem to have been intended. (in the CCg world things are banned or errataed if they dont function how they are intended)
Please I would like you thoughts and your observations on these two feats. (if you have playtested with the new feats please discuss also)
In regards to Combat Expertise, I never found it abused really, nor a problem. And in fact, after reading over the new Combat Expertise I find this very underpowered and not as useful.
As for Power Attack, I found that often abused and overpowered, especially when you compared it to the old combat expertise. Someone with Power Attack could choose to translate the entirety of their BAB into damage whereas someone with Combat Expertise could only translate upto 5 of their BAB into AC. It just didn't match up.
But tying it to ability scores seems to severely weaken them. I mean it makes Combat Expertise even less useful then it was. ^^; Especially when you compare it to the prime examples of whom is most likely going to take the feats. Barbarians and Fighters are going to be the primetakers of Power Attack and in general their strength is going to be pumped up as high as they can get it. Whereas the primetakers for Combat Expertise are going to be lightly armoured melees such as the rogue, ranger, and monk who aren't going to have that high of Intelligence scores. Now Combat Expertise is only going to really benefit wizards a class that isn't very likely to take it, as Intelligence is their primary ability score.
Once again Combat Expertise usefulness is shafted when compared to Power Attack.
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I never seemed to have a problem with them.
Personally Ive already posted my opinions that these have been too 'nerfed' - Combat Expertise especially - it really shafts the warrior types who would usually make the most use out of it.
There is an extensive thread on here already over this same topic - with ALOT of differnt opinions and perspectives on this.
My suggestion was and still is that the two feats should mirror they way they work on NeverWinter Nights. Power Attack or Combat Expertise is a flat -5 to attacks, and Improved PA or CE is -10 to attacks. That eliminates the myriad and sliding scare of math that is needed since it's always a stagnant plus.
Robert
Power Attack really was a bit OP in 3.5 - particularly when combined with Shock Trooper from CW and a few other feats. My main problem with it was that it was simply THE BEST way for melee'ers to deal enough damage, so every Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin in the game was pretty much forced to use it (with a two-handed weapon, of course) to stay useful. To paraphrase how one poster on the GITP forums put it: "Are we really to believe that the ultimate martial technique is a first level feat that boils down to 'Hit your target really, really hard'?"
Combat Expertise was fine, but as I said in the other thread on this same topic, it always bothered me that it wasn't defined explicitly as being the same as fighting defensively (since there are several feats/items/etc that trigger from doing so). I'm all in favor of CE being a static bonus to AC/Saves/whatever that you receive when fighting defensively or using total defense.
Power attack is a problem with two hand weapons (two times the minus of the base attack and one time and half of strengh) and medium to high levels (5+), especially with barbarians.
Combat Expertise is a good feat but in my experience it don't cause problems. It could be a proble if the feat gives you two times the minus in base attack for bear a heavy armor and time and half of the Dexterity.
Please excuse my poor english.
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After doing some playtesting - and using some of the ideas I proposed taking it from the Neverwinter Nights game - I think I found a good solution (in my opinion its good anyways)
Power Attack and Combat Expert feat allows a -4 to ones Attack Roll, and adds 4 to damage or AC respectively. (NOTE: Power Attack adds 6 to damage when using two-handed weapon) thats 1.5 times the damage - just like STR damage. (prereq: Str 13 or INT 13)
Improved Power Attack and Combat Expert increases this benefit to -8 to ones attack rolls for a +8 benefit to damage or AC. (+12 with a two-handed weapon). (prereq: STR 15 or INT 15 / BAB +6)
Benefits:
This is still allowing a two-handed wielder to gain a slight bit of advantage (since he is forgoing the use of a shield), but not TOO big of a benefit
This allows a set-stagnant bonus - that doesn't change round from round and require a bunch of spot math to be done.
This then prevent super strong giants and such to have just an assinine benefit from Power Attack.
The inclusion of the INT 15 prereq for improved CE, follows that logic of Paizo that a higher INT should be needed to reap a high level of reward/benefit from the feat - but its not an unreasonable expectation of that score to make good use of it.
(all of these have been issues that have been addressed by posters).
Robert
Is putting all your BAB into damage via Power Attack such a problem? To me it would seem that when facing level-appropriate enemies an attacker would need to put less points into damage via Power Attack so that he might still be able to hit the AC of his target.
I'd rather retain the old Power Attack as it stands now...
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I vote for keeping the old power attack and combat expertise. There might have been problems with them, but limiting them to 'on or off' with no granularity is not the way to fix them. I for one have many times seen people choosing to PA or CE for less than the full option because they still want to be able to _hit_ monsters. Limiting it to a max determined by ability scores instead of BAB is one thing. Limiting it to _exactly_ your ability mod or nothing at all is bad. Clarifying combat expertise as a type of defensive fighting only people with a certain feat can do would be good, though.
Personally i always considered Power Attack and Combat Expertise as combat tactics, not feats.
The character sacrifices a part of his attack potential to inflict more damage, or exposes himself to hit better.
Therefore i decided to give them for free to all characters (and intelligent npc) as combat tactics.
I developed similar options, each of them being in the same spirit [-x in this/+x in that], "this" and "that" being alternatively attack, damage or AC.
Everybody is happy with it.
One thing I think seriously needs altered is the X2 damage while weilding a two handed weapon. I don't see power attack being overpowering normally, but it can be pretty bad with a two-hander. Perhaps somthing like X1.5 as it still makes it more useful when used with a two-handed weapon, but not overly so.
I know this because I have just played a two-handed fighter with power attack who was dishing out damage in the hundreads (the record of his damage stands at 396 a round). He would be lucky to reach the hundreads with criticals should he not have power attack.