As for the original topic,
We have a bit of a logical quandry here. Paizo staffers have stated over and over that WOTC staffers are firm believers in the OGL and others have discussed WOTC staffers' emberrassment over the delay on the GSL. On the other hand, a number of people have described the hands off approach Hasbro takes with its sunsidiaries. One statement points towards Hasbro causing the delay, the other points towards WOTC. It's going to be interesting to see which one is accurate.
BTW: Has anyone else had trouble getting to WOTC's D&D site since the April Fool's day news article?
EDIT: Boards ate a post where I basically said firefighters/teachers/cops are underpaid....
Well, there actually is another distinct possibility that someone posted on ENWorld. Link. Pay special attenction to the Duties.
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It is truly unfortunate, but in a capitalist society, where everyone wants to pay zero taxes, only those who bring in money, get money.
Greg
That is not strictly true.
The supply of workers available to do a job is another factor. A third factor is the desirability of doing the job yourself.
In the right places, garbage collectors and sewage pump workers can make a pretty good income.
Naturally, the ones who create wealth are going to recieve more wealth. But supply and demand is a factor as well.
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Well, there actually is another distinct possibility that someone posted on ENWorld. Link. Pay special attenction to the Duties.
Ow.
More to the point,How long has that post been unfilled?
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Well, there actually is another distinct possibility that someone posted on ENWorld. Link. Pay special attenction to the Duties.As for the original topic,
We have a bit of a logical quandry here. Paizo staffers have stated over and over that WOTC staffers are firm believers in the OGL and others have discussed WOTC staffers' emberrassment over the delay on the GSL. On the other hand, a number of people have described the hands off approach Hasbro takes with its sunsidiaries. One statement points towards Hasbro causing the delay, the other points towards WOTC. It's going to be interesting to see which one is accurate.
BTW: Has anyone else had trouble getting to WOTC's D&D site since the April Fool's day news article?
EDIT: Boards ate a post where I basically said firefighters/teachers/cops are underpaid....
I see what you mean, but... As a law student I've seen a lot of form books for a variety of legal documents. I would be extremely surpised if drafting a liscensing agreement took such a long time to create, especially if it was given any kind of priority, unless:
1. They've had an incredible rate of turnover and no one has completed the document (unlikely unless WOTC can't tap Hasbro's legal team).
2. Someone keeps changing the purpose/restrictions of the GSL so that it requires a new draft each time.
Depending on when this position was first advertised, you may be seeing the result of frustration from (instead of causing) the delay of the GSL.
Depending on when this position was first advertised,
march 24 (assuming '08, have no information on that one way or the other.)
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Let me clarify. A salary of $75,000 is low for I just noted on another board that Gleemax and the DDI reek of "poor planning, lacking stakeholder requirements, poor or lacking project management, no good process in place for quality checks and controlled public release, etc." and I think this can be expanded to the 4e release in general. The GSL is one element of this lack in project/product planning. Though I'm in the IT field, the basics of project management are the same and I see clear indications of failures in key areas--risk management, communication management, activity scheduling/sequencing--that are manifesting in things like making an announcement about something (Gleemax, DDI, the GSL, etc.) before you should/could really show that thing to stakeholders. This destroys stakeholder confidence, increasing pressure on the project to deliver which often leads to cutting corners and lower quality.
Dead on. As a marketing professional, I have been horrified by the way they have handled this as a project. Flat out pitiful.
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What companies do you think pay more than one employee this much money?
I am in media. I manage nine managers who are at or above this level.
Some types of manufacturing compensate like this, as does pretty much any high end B2B sales position. Go check the postins on www.theladders.com to get a feel for that.
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What companies do you think pay more than one employee this much money?
I am in media. I manage nine managers who are at or above this level.
Some types of manufacturing compensate like this, as does pretty much any high end B2B sales position. Go check the postins on www.theladders.com to get a feel for that.
I think he meant in the RPG industry. At least, I hope that's what he meant.
Your statement made me tally my team of 6's total annual salary. I don't even want to contemplate that number. You're not in NYC by any chance, are you?
::Rereads:: You are right. He was taking RPGS.
I am in Atlanta. Major metros drive up salaries.
he said 'snarky'... :giggle:
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HAHAHAHA.
I can think of maybe one or two people in the entire RPG _industry_ who make $75,000 a year. Maybe.
Editorial salaries in this business range from the mid-20s to the high-40s, I should think. It's been a long time since I worked at WotC, but I'm guessing that's still fairly accurate.
Thanks Erik,
You just cured my life-long desire to work in the gaming industry.
Now I can relax and enjoy being a lawyer.
If any of you are ever in New York City, send me an email and I'd be happy to buy you dinner (especially if you like Korean food!) and/or drinks as a small token of my appreciation for your hard work.
You're telling writers that you'll buy them food and drink? Heck, some of us might take a trip out there just for that!
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Thanks Erik,
You just cured my life-long desire to work in the gaming industry.
It seems that the reality of it certainly doesn't match the fantasy.
To all the Paizo staff and contributing authors:
I think I speak for most of the messageboard when I express my heartfelt thanks that you put your considerable talents into this art form that so many of us have loved for so long. If any of you are ever in New York City, send me an email and I'd be happy to buy you dinner (especially if you like Korean food!) and/or drinks as a small token of my appreciation for your hard work.
Hear,Hear!
And if you are in Las Vegas, drop me a line for the same offer.
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Thanks Erik,
You just cured my life-long desire to work in the gaming industry.
It seems that the reality of it certainly doesn't match the fantasy.
To all the Paizo staff and contributing authors:
I think I speak for most of the messageboard when I express my heartfelt thanks that you put your considerable talents into this art form that so many of us have loved for so long. If any of you are ever in New York City, send me an email and I'd be happy to buy you dinner (especially if you like Korean food!) and/or drinks as a small token of my appreciation for your hard work.
Hear,Hear!
And if you are in Las Vegas, drop me a line for the same offer.
Same thing for New Orleans, at least if its after August...
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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What companies do you think pay more than one employee this much money?
I am in media. I manage nine managers who are at or above this level.
Some types of manufacturing compensate like this, as does pretty much any high end B2B sales position. Go check the postins on www.theladders.com to get a feel for that.
I meant, of course, what RPG companies you think pay employees this much money? Obviously lots of companies do, just not in this industry.
Same thing for New Orleans, at least if its after August...
Off topic but ...
Doth my eyes betray me? Does another Paizo poster live in New Orleans? Or are you heading down this way after August?
I'd have private messaged you but I can't figure out how (or if you can! :P)
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If any of you are ever in New York City, send me an email and I'd be happy to buy you dinner (especially if you like Korean food!) and/or drinks as a small token of my appreciation for your hard work.
"And if you're ever passing through Yorkshire, please drop in!"
<rubs hands with glee>
"That's one promise I'll never have to make good on!"
<knock on door>
<looks through chink in curtains>
<sees queue of Lisa, Vic, Erik, Josh, Wesley, Gary, Cosmo, Jacobs, Logue, Pett, McArtor, etc...>
"Aw, Frig!"
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Same thing for New Orleans, at least if its after August...Off topic but ...
Doth my eyes betray me? Does another Paizo poster live in New Orleans? Or are you heading down this way after August?
I'd have private messaged you but I can't figure out how (or if you can! :P)
DM,
Actually I grew up in Metairie (easier to say N.O. for out of staters), and despite some extended visits out of state, have always considered myself a Louisianian by birth. I even married a cajun! My wife and I graduate from law school in May and I start work with a firm in September (hence the post August), so I'll actually have money then. If you want to email me at Forgottenprince at yahoo dot com we'll exchange stories.
FP
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Chief Technical Officer
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...On the other hand, a number of people have described the hands off approach Hasbro takes with its sunsidiaries.
I have to say, I haven't seen that approach from Hasbro in general. While I'll admit I haven't paid any attention to Hasbro's recent purchases (assuming they've had any), I did (back in the day) look into their history with companies they purchased in the years closer to the Wizards buyout, and I'd characterize Hasbro as being very far from hands-off. In particular, I seem to recall that Tiger Electronics and Galoob were both pretty much immediately gutted, with the few surviving employees being transfered to Rhode Island in short order, where their existing brands were assigned to almost entirely new teams of people under Hasbro's direct control. The only notable exception that I can think of is Kenner—they did come under direct corporate control quickly, as far as I could tell, but they at least got to keep their Cincinnati offices for a while.
That said, I do believe that Hasbro has been very hands-off with Wizards, but I see that as the exception to their acquisition strategies, not the rule.
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What companies do you think pay more than one employee this much money?
I am in media. I manage nine managers who are at or above this level.
Some types of manufacturing compensate like this, as does pretty much any high end B2B sales position. Go check the postins on www.theladders.com to get a feel for that.
I meant, of course, what RPG companies you think pay employees this much money? Obviously lots of companies do, just not in this industry.
Yeah you did. I misread.
That said, I do believe that Hasbro has been very hands-off with Wizards, but I see that as the exception to their acquisition strategies, not the rule.
They probably didn't want to "kill the golden goose" of Magic the Gathering and Pokemon with heavy corporate oversight (and the unexpected success level of D&D 3.x was a nice side benefit). With the suits setting their eyes on the MMO market and probably taking the early D&D 3.x profit levels as the benchmark, Hasbro seems to be pushing WotC hard at the moment. I doubt that WotC will avoid being completely absorbed under Hasbro's direct control much longer.
And Resource Management in the IT field. The wifey makes almost six figures.Oh great...Now Im depressed that someone thinks that making $75,000 a years isnt alot of money. :(I agree Jason. There are really only two kinds of jobs which pay that kind of money, Lawyer and Doctor. And you have to be good at what you do to make that.
Good IT professionals (even non-managers) can make $60-100K a year, depending on certifications, experience, location, and the position. The median is still somewhere around $45-60K, IIRC, even after the dot-com bust. It's also a whole lot easier to become an IT professional than it is to be a doctor or lawyer.
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HAHAHAHA.
I can think of maybe one or two people in the entire RPG _industry_ who make $75,000 a year. Maybe.
Editorial salaries in this business range from the mid-20s to the high-40s, I should think. It's been a long time since I worked at WotC, but I'm guessing that's still fairly accurate.
Yeesh, way to crush dreams there Erik. My job started in the high 20s and doesn't even require a degree, my only hope for fame and fortune was to try and turn my hobby into my career =p. I suppose I could always get the fame at least, Logue has hordes of groupies.
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Okay, let's look at how much a freelancer can hope to make in the rpg industry. Ignore such things as self-employment tax and health insurance, and just do raw dollars.
Let's assume you get paid an average of 6 cents a word. I have had years when that was my average, though I have had years above and below that, too.
Next, let's say you can write 3,000 words a day, 5 days a week. That adds up to 15,000 words a week. We'll give you one week off. (This is a dream scenario for a freelancer by the way, look at this as a best case you'll never see, not an average). For some reason, you don't lose any time at all doing research, trying to drum up new gigs, doing revisions, or working on projects that don't pan out. Somehow you get the five game companies you work with to always have a new project ready when you get done with the old one, never overlap, and never change projects mid-stream. We also assume that everyone pays you on time, no one goes bankrupt, all the checks clear, and you never forget to send in an invoice or contract.
So that's 51 weeks x 15,000 words x 6 cents, or $45,900.
Yeah, I've made about that much in a year freelance writing, so I know it can be done. I ALSO know I've made less than that in later years, and often actually got paid a LOT less than that, even when that was what I had earned.
And it was never as smooth as 15,000 a week. It was always 5,000 one week, the 60,000 over the next two, then 18,000 that were for a company that paid on publication and ended up never publishing. It's a rough way to make a living, and after 8 years of it I decided I had to grab another job for my expenses, because no matter how hard I worked my income was never regular, though things not in my control.
If I got offered a regular game company job at anything like $45k, I would consider myself fortunate. I might well settle for one paying less (especially if I didn't have to relocate). I would never expect to be making $75k, for the reasons Erik outlined.
It can be a great living, but you won't get rich, and it's a heck of a lot of work. Very few freelancers stay that way forever.
Editing 19k? OMG!I make over 20,000 USD a year teaching English literature and holding a side job at a University in China (28 teaching hours a week....). My rent on a nice seaside 3 bedroom apartment is 175 dollars a month and a dozen (organic) eggs costs 2 USD. During the summer I will supervise English immersion field trips abroad and make about 4k in a month.
You poor bastards. I'm going to the beach, it's 17 degrees C today.
<threadjack>
Well, if the US Gov manages to tank the national laboratory system, I may have to come talk to you. I've often considered teaching English in Asia as interesting fall-back career.
</threadjack>
For anyone looking for a job over here, consider that foreign teachers in China who have a good income get a job with low hours to maintain their work permit, and schedule side jobs to actually make money. What's interesting is that doing this is harder in the big cities where the hourly fees are higher, but travel from job to job is time consuming.
I don't think people at WotC get paid all that much. You hear game designers talking all the time about how it barely pays the bills. Really, you don't get a whole lot of organizational ability when you're only paying people $75,000 per year (that's just a guess as to what the average WotC salary is, and I tried to guess high). That's in the East Coast. I don't know what it's like out west but our company pays our west coast people comparably.
.HAHAHAHA.
I can think of maybe one or two people in the entire RPG _industry_ who make $75,000 a year. Maybe.
Editorial salaries in this business range from the mid-20s to the high-40s, I should think. It's been a long time since I worked at WotC, but I'm guessing that's still fairly accurate.
Wow, that is just...sad. I guess you guys really are in it for the love. My respect for RPG editors just went up a notch.
You and I clearly don't use the word "respectfully" the same way, because the antagonistic and insulting tone of your posting is anything but respectful to me or to Paizo or Wizards.Respectfully yours,
Donny the Mad DM
I think you may be feeling a little overly sensitive, Mr. Wertz. Let me be frank: I despise the corporate entity that is Hasbro. I am gravely disappointed many of the decisions WotC leadership has made in recent years, especially those that lead up to 4E. I think they continue to stumble, and I think those decisions will ultimately be bad for the industry as a whole.
However, even I don't blame people like you or Lisa Stevens for selling your stake in WotC. Was it the best decision for WotC in the long term? I'll admit, I'm sure it certainly seemed that way in the short term. I would suggest that it may turn out not to be *long term*. But prognostication is a tough thing. If I was in your shoes, I probably would have done the same, especially if I wanted to go off and establish a new start-up in an industry as tough as publishing, much less game publishing.
As I've got futures on my mind of late, I'll go one step further. As you can see from my subscription list, I've made several subscriptions to Paizo and I've also pre-ordered the PFRPG. I'll not be subscribing to DDI or anything like it. If I buy a 4E book, it will be used. And if anyone cares to make a little side bet, I'm betting that WotC will not be around as a game publisher in 10 years time. There will probably still be a CCG business, and I wouldn't be surprised if the miniature game survived in some incarnation, but I don't expect to see a publisher of paper D&D books.
This conversation reminds me of something I've said a few times while working hard on hobby work... 'Just think, if I work _really_ hard at this, I might - just might - be able to get into the gaming industry and make a quarter of my current salary!'
One of the reasons I get antsy when I see people making personal attacks on game designers and such... I mean, these aren't exactly big wigs out of touch cause they're too busy in the hot tubs of their limousines ;)
As you can see from my subscription list, I've made several subscriptions to Paizo and I've also pre-ordered the PFRPG.
Just realized that the alias doesn't show the subscription list...this should do it.
I'll take that bet in a heartbeat. I think you are vastly overestimating the ill will generated by the marketing missteps with 4e. The only way D&D doesn't still exist in ten years time is because the industry itself is gone. Fourth edition is looking to be a very good game. Its not the game I want to play, but then neither are GURPS or any of the White Wolf games and those are quite successful, too. D&D is a very powerful brand and Hasbro/WotC hasn't done anything to seriously damage it. They've pissed off a slice of the existing customers, but every edition has done that. Fourth edition is not anywhere near as bungled as 2e was, nor is WotC/Hasbro anywhere near as badly run as TSR was at that time.Unless you are just making a general bet on e-publishing instead of paper? Which I don't think will pan out in 10 years either, but is at least possible.
I think that the lack of a GSL could lead to the end of D&D. Lets face it WotC is only known to put out so so modules. Most of the really great stuff has been put out by third parties under OGL or by Paizo under the magazine licence. Without this type of support, I doubt that they will be able to maintain their sales (See TSR) and Hasbro will pull the plug if it stops making money,
*raises hand*
I have a question. Does WotC or Hasbro really have no way of pulling back the OGL? I've gotten this assumption from a lot of online discussion...but no real confirmation. Is the OGL a real and true public domain system? Or is there a set of circumstances WotC could use to pull 3.5 back under their wing?
Perhaps this question is an obvious one. But for those of us not fully in the know of the legalese WotC's put out, it'd be reassuring to know that the PRPG is safe from any legal wrangling by WotC in that regard.
In this thread both James Jacobs and Vic Wertz said they weren't worried about any problems on that front.
*raises hand*
I have a question. Does WotC or Hasbro really have no way of pulling back the OGL? I've gotten this assumption from a lot of online discussion...but no real confirmation. Is the OGL a real and true public domain system? Or is there a set of circumstances WotC could use to pull 3.5 back under their wing?
Perhaps this question is an obvious one. But for those of us not fully in the know of the legalese WotC's put out, it'd be reassuring to know that the PRPG is safe from any legal wrangling by WotC in that regard.
There's US supreme court precidence that may or may not entirely apply to the OGL. If it applies then the OGL will become public domain as soon as the edition changes. If it doesn't then we only have WOTC's word that they won't touch it.
But I have faith that if it comes to a court battle the CA state supreme court will make the OGL public.
But I have faith that if it comes to a court battle the CA state supreme court will make the OGL public.
Only problem with that: Wizards is in Washington. I'd imagine any dispute involving them would be fought there.
In my homebrew world, all Paizo designers make over $75,000 a month.
In my homebrew world, all Paizo designers make over $75,000 a month.
LOL. I'm sure the Paizians would be very glad to play in your world.
LOL. I'm sure the Paizians would be very glad to play in your world.
Possibly. Did I mention that my world also has a bit of an inflation problem?