| Otto the Bugbear |
Hey all,
One thing I noticed right away when reading through the Pathfinder PDF was the new skill system. It struck me that it really doesn't do two things that I thought this project was supposed to/rumored to accomplish.
1. Fix elements of 3.5 that were broken: IMO, skills were the furthest thing from broken in 3.5. While there are a few areas with holes big enough to throw a cat through, the underlying system really wasn't broken at either end of the spectrum, neither too powerful nor too weak.
2. Maintain backward compatibility: The new skill system fails at this an spades. It's already been pointed out how the new system basically just grants everyone an absurd skill increase across the board. That's only one worry though. Maintaining backward compatibility isn't just making sure the Pathfinder material that replaces core works ok. It also has to be backward compatible with the library of books that many people who are excited about this project certainly have. Even if someone just has Complete Warrior/Divine/Arcane/Adventurer, it becomes more problematic to switch to this pseudo SWSE system than just refine the existing system a little bit.
What I mean by that is really accomplished pretty easily. First, reduce the number of skills by combining some of them together. Second, get rid of the 2:1 cross-class skills purchase (but keep the cross-class maximum ranks).
Anyway, more details can be found here .
Cheers
Otto :)
| EL |
I'm fine with the above or the below.
Use the 3.5 system for skills with the revised skill list in alpha but remove class vs. cross class skills. All skills can be taken by all classes. What makes rogues so great at skills is the number of skill points they get over other classes. If we can agree that some skills like Disable device/open lock (yes I think those should go together) should be rogue skills we impose a feat requirement that a rogue gets as a function of thier class. This works much like Tracking.
For example anyone can take Disable device but to use it on any trap with a DC higher than 10 you need the feat Trap disarming.
Now if your fighter wants to use a feat to be able to disarm traps he can but he has less skill points so he is sacrificing something else to do it along with a feat which makes him a less capable fighter for diverting his attention from his profession.
As for DM's, well some DM's like statting up all of thier NPC's some don't. This screams optional rule. Perhaps something along the lines of a skill pool.
For example lets say you roll up an NPC that is just for a quick fight and you don't want to do all his skills. We take his skill total and create a skill pool. Lets say he has 100 skill points available. You set that aside. You run your combat and say you need to make a ride check, you make a quick decision based on how good you think he is at that skill (sounds random but as a DM your the only one who can answer that question) and subtract the number of ranks you grant him from his skill pool. Jot it down in case he survives and you reuse him later. If for some reason best flute player comes up in battle well apply the same logic as above. Anhy major NPC you'd probably want to stat up completely which actually won't be that bad since we dropped class/cross class skils which is the most agrivating part of skills.
Now we go back to humans and half elves and change that make a class skill ability to extra skill points for humans. You could do the same for half elves but personally I think the half elves and humans are still to similar. I'd change half elves to +2 to any, +2 to any, (cannot choose the same ability) and -2 to any.
This gives the customization many if not all players are looking for while reducing prep time for DM's. It is simple and easy in my humble opinion. I never really understood why Class skills was needed. Why on earth can't you have a perceptive fighter or a mage who can lie through his teeth just as good as any rogue. Again if a skill like spellcraft is needed to be separate use the feat system to seperate it out and give it as a free feat to the class you want to have it.
for example
Student of spells- without this feat your max rank in spellcraft can never exceed half your character level.
That is just my two cents from my limited gaming experience of 2nd edition on up plus whatever else I can get my hands on.
| Otto the Bugbear |
Well, damn. That link appears broken. I've added the entirety of the suggestion below.
I've never implemented it, but I think the skill bonus feats should indeed grant the skill as a class skill. In fact, with the amount of skills reduced significantly, I'd lose the +2/+2 feats (such as Acrobatic, Deft Hands, et.al.) and just go with Skill Focus granting a bonus and making the skill a class skill.
You're absolutely right about the 2:1 thing, and that's why I say to drop it. The classes that only have two skill points are already sacrificing to pick up ranks in Stealth or Perception or whatever.
I'm not going to touch the racial stuff, because I think the +2/+2/-2 is just a silly power-up that drifts too far away from backward compatibility. Leaving it at +2/-2 wasn't really a problem with 3.5 (aside from the half-orc). But, I'll get around to posting about that in the appropriate place some time after this weekend.
The biggest problem with skills is that there are more than 61 of them. The skill point system itself isn't really broken and in need of a total overhaul in the way shown in the Alpha download. You can totally get away with very few changes, none of which includes changing the fact that classes get skill points and skill ranks.
First, group the skills together and reduce the number of skills. Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Languages, Mechanics, Knowledge (arcane), Knowledge (planes and cosmology), Knowledge (exploration), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (practical), Perform, Perception, Social Interaction, Stealth, Wilderness Lore
Then, get rid of the 2:1 cross-class purchasing of skill ranks.
That's pretty much it. This helps achieve the backward compatibility that's been talked about, without the comparison between the old and new character skill ranks so lop-sided.
Skill System
Skill Ranks: A character spends his skill points to gain ranks in a skill group. One skill point spent gives a character one rank. The maximum number of ranks a character can gain depends upon if that skill is a class skill or a cross-class skill.
Class Skills: A character can have ranks in a class skill equal to his ECL +3.
Cross-class Skills: A character can have ranks in a cross-class skill equal to one-half of his ECL+3. Once a character has taken a class with a skill listed as a class skill, his maximum number of ranks becomes his ECL+3.
Skill Synergy: Drop this altogether. It really just boils down to ‘yet another tiny, often situational, modifier I have to keep track of’. With the new skill groupings, the bonus isn’t needed anyway. For example, if you have 5 ranks in Acrobatics, you essentially have 5 ranks in Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble. The measly +2 bonus from synergy is eclipsed by merely having these groupings in the first place.
Class Skill List: The class skills list changes a little bit, as does the number of skill points each class gets. With such a reduction in the number of skills in the game, I’d be tempted to adjust these more, including introducing odd number of skill points each level. The skill points listed here are the SRD skill points, followed by what I would assign if I were redesigning the game (6 SRD / 5 Me).
Bard (6/5): Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (all), Languages, Perform, Perception, Social Interaction, Stealth
Barbarian (4/3): Animal Handling, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Perception, Wilderness Lore
Cleric (2/2): Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (planes and cosmology, local), Perception, Social Interaction
Druid (4/4): Animal Handling, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (exploration), Perception, Wilderness Lore
Fighter (2/4)*: Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (local), Perception
Monk (4/4): Acrobatics, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (exploration, local, practical), Perception, Stealth
Paladin (2/3): Animal Handling, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (planes and cosmology), Perception, Social Interaction
Ranger (6/5): Animal Handling, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (exploration, local), Perception, Stealth, Wilderness Lore
Rogue (8/6): Acrobatics, Athletics, Craft, Knowledge (local, practical), Language, Mechanics, Perception, Social Interaction, Stealth
Sorcerer (2/2): Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (arcane, local), Social Interaction
Wizard (2/3): Craft, Endurance, Knowledge (all)
*Seems that one of the most common house-rules for the Fighter is an additional 2 skill points. The Alpha release also did this and I strongly recommend it.
SKILL GROUPS
Acrobatics (Dex)*
Balance – balancing across narrow or treacherous surfaces
Escape Artist – escaping bindings or grapples
Tumble – avoiding movement attacks of opportunity and various other movement related checks
Animal Handling (Dex/Cha)
Handle Animal (Cha) – tending and working with domestic animals
Ride (Dex) – for riding on a mount
Wild Empathy (Cha) – influence wild animals and magical beasts
Athletics (Str)*
Climb – climbing surfaces
Jump – long jump and high jump
Swim** – swimming, including checks to avoid non-lethal damage from swimming
Craft (Int) [Individual skills]
Includes Forgery
Endurance (Con)
Concentration – for spellcasters to maintain spell concentration
Hold Breath – just like it says
Persevere [from Endurance feat] – avoid damage from forced march, starvation or thirst; continue running, avoid damage from hot or cold environments
Knowledge (Arcane) (Int) [Trained only]
Identify Item – determine a single basic functions of a magic item.
Arcana – knowledge of ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts).
Knowledge (Exploration) (Int) [Trained only]
Dungeoneering – knowledge of dungeons, caves, caverns, oozes, molds, spelunking.
Geography – knowledge of lands, terrain, climate, people.
Nature – knowledge of animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin.
Knowledge (Local) (Int) [Trained only]
History – knowledge of royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities.
Local – knowledge of legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids.
Nobility and Royalty – lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities.
Knowledge (Planes and Cosmology) (Int) [Trained only]
Religion – knowledge of gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead.
The Planes – knowledge of inner planes, outer planes, ethereal plane, astral plane, shadow planes, elementals, outsiders.
Knowledge (Practical) (Int) [Trained only]
Appraise – determine the value of expensive and rare objects
Architecture and Engineering [Trained only] – knowledge of buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications
Language (Int) [Trained only; Individual skills]
Language – pick a language and learn it; 1 rank is the basics, 2 ranks is passable, 3 ranks is fluent.
Reading and Writing – learn to read and write, or decipher unfamiliar text.
Mechanics (Int) [Trained only]
Disable Device – ruin the function of a mechanical device.
Open Lock – pick a lock.
Perform (Cha) [Trained only; Individual skills]
Perception (Int/Wis)
Listen (Wis) – hear sounds, determine direction and location
Search (Int) – searching for fine detail
Spot (Wis) – notice something significant
Sense Motive (Wis) – get a feeling about others, see through their lies
Social Interaction (Cha)
Bluff – lie through your teeth, also includes Disguise
Diplomacy – persuade through words
Gather Information – gather rumors and other information
Intimidate – use threat of violence to coerce specific acts out of an individual
Stealth (Dex)*
Hide – remain hidden
Move Silently – make no noise while moving
Sleight of Hand – loot retrieval, such as picking pockets
Wilderness Lore (Wis)
Heal – help yourself or others through non-magical means
Track – track a subject via footprints or through other means
Survival – survive in the wilds
*Armor Check Penalty applies.
** Double Armor Check Penalty applies.
You'll notice that I've dropped three skills, Profession, Use Rope and Spellcraft.
The profession rules don't work. At all. If you really want your character to have a profession other than Adventurer, go ahead and pick on. Yes, for free. Happy Birthday. Remember, nearly every NPC you interact with in a non-violent way will have a profession.
Use rope is hard to place. I guess it could fall under Mechanics or Knowledge (practical), but that means every sailor or teamster would know how to disable devices or appraise valuable objects. I'm content just to hand-wave this one into your profession. If you choose a profession that it makes sense for your character to know about Rope Use, then you do.
Spellcraft is a strange one to eliminate, I'll admit. However, I just don't see very much use in identifying a spell as it's being cast. If you really insist, just add it to Knowledge (arcane), where it makes the most sense.
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