I was readig over the unified skill list and agree with most of it. Open locks is a small error in my view.
I would have rather seen Open Lock be unified under Disable Device. Afterall, that is what you are doing when you open a lock. The only real difference between Open Lock and Disable Device is the consequences of a failed check. Fail Open Lock and it stays shut or at worst you break a lockpick. Fail a Dsiable Device against a trap and it may go off. But they are still the same activity pretty....making a mechanical device do what you want it to instead of what the creator wanted it to do. I also would like to see 'monkeywrenching' (or should that be goblinwrenching') and sabotage get a bit more mention under Disable Device...since even in a basic 1300s era style setting there are plenty of machines to wreck (more in a fantasy setting of the same rough era usually.)
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I like those combinations. They make a great deal of sense. I also like the name change for theft...since there are so many way to thieve. I would personally put Rope Use under survival....boy scout knots, snares and all that.
Oh hell lets be honest.
Tighing knots is nothing that a skill is need for.
Make a DEX check or substitute it with sleigh of hand, survial or even Profession (Sailor).
Draco,
I agree that most people dont need a skill for knots. Most people can tie a few basic knots. That being said, there are many different types of knots and many uses for rope that the average person could not even attempt, especially in a medieval setting where rope was in much wider use. Really rope use should be under several skills....survival, profession: sailor, mountaineering etc.
There is also the very intricate and useful knots found in the japanese martial art of Hojojutsu which has some extremely complex knots and tying method. Some of the knots tighten only while force is being extred against them while other tighten when strained againt and remain tightened. Some are designed so that as you struggle against them they constrict around your torso eventually knocking you unconscious (again some of these loosen when you stop struggling and you can breathe normally while unconscious and other remain tightened and will eventually kill you).
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Draco,
I agree that most people dont need a skill for knots. Most people can tie a few basic knots. That being said, there are many different types of knots and many uses for rope that the average person could not even attempt, especially in a medieval setting where rope was in much wider use. Really rope use should be under several skills....survival, profession: sailor, mountaineering etc.
Yes; the thing with Use Rope is that you use it differently depending on what you're using it FOR.
1. Use rope while mountaineering -> Climb
2. Use rope for ship's rigging -> Profession (sailor)
3. Use rope to tie someone up -> Escape Artist
4. Use rope to set a snare -> Survival or Craft (trapmaking).
With Use Rope as a separate skill, we should by similar logic also have "Use Legs" as a separate skill that would supercede the Jump skill, base land speed, and the Run feat. And "Use Arms" for just about everything.
With Use Rope as a separate skill, we should by similar logic also have "Use Legs" as a separate skill that would supercede the Jump skill, base land speed, and the Run feat. And "Use Arms" for just about everything.Isn't that describing the 'Fly' skill? :)
"Use Wings"? Maybe. But I'll probably keep Fly as a skill, just because the "Crouching Tiger, Hidden D&D" that's the presumed default after 5th level or so is really starting to bug me.
The Open Lock into Disable Device makes sense. And yeah Theft gone completely makes more sense. And just SoH.
I agree use rope doesn't need its own skill just a DMs common sense if you wish use for a specific purpose you have to make the ascociated check. Like setting a snare is survival, etc.
I don't agree with the Fly being in ascociated with "use arms" or "use legs", it is equivilant to the skills climb and swim.
The combination of so many of their bread and butter skills into bundles with each other is part of why i think Rogue's need a reduction in skill points (or starting skills in the case fo the system currently in the Alpha Release). That skill points/starting skills go a hell of a lot further than it did in 3.5 and rogues benefit from this in an extreme manner.
The combination of so many of their bread and butter skills into bundles with each other is part of why i think Rogue's need a reduction in skill points (or starting skills in the case fo the system currently in the Alpha Release). That skill points/starting skills go a hell of a lot further than it did in 3.5 and rogues benefit from this in an extreme manner.
The way the auto-max skills rules work in PFRPG, rogues won't really exist after 1-2 levels anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it.
Ah, I feel like I'm stirring things up today.
I still think combining Open Locks and Disable Device suffers the same problem as Handle Animal and Ride.
Open Locks and Disable Device absolutely mean the same thing. When you open a lock you are disabling a device. End of argument.
But unless you are using DracoDruid/Snorter's suggestion to combine skills with different ability modifiers, the two skills represent two different things and should be kept as separate, and they should be renamed. (I may be on board with the combined ability modifier skills, BTW).
DeadDMWalking had started a thread on this already, too. You can find it here. (see DracoDruid, I told you other people had started new threads without seeing the old ones) :)
The crazy dissenter on that board is saying sabotaging and figuring out how to disable a trap are Intelligence based and using tools to pick apart a hidden mechanism is a Dexterity based one.
That is the main definition of Dexterity! You are not going to be able to convince me (I mean him) differently.
He then goes on to show how you can still combine several skills into two skills by slightly rewriting the Open Locks, Disable Device, Search, and Sleight of Hands skills. It is on page 2 of the thread.
I think the idea is that it gets a cover all skills so that some skills are accually better or more used.
Sure you open locks in dungons all the time but when it comes to an RP encounter they say well ok thief we know he has it just come up and slight of hand it when you meet him and their responce is.
One I am a rouge not a thief two, i didn't sink any points in to slight of hand.
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My thoughts -
Thievery (Dex) – as Theft in Pathfinder, keep Open Locks (?)
I just think Thievery sounds better. It could be a course title, like Spellcraft. As for pulling out Open Locks, I’m on the fence. I don’t want to see all the thief skills rolled into one. I see Thievery as more about having quick hands – picking pockets, palming small objects, hiding things on your person, distractions, etc. But I also see how every class needs their Knowledge skill and their applications skill, and this would be the application skill for thieves (but not all rogues), almost a “thief-craft.” I could also just be sentimental. Maybe some feats could give bonuses to certain aspects and not others ("+2 to Thievery when picking pockets or palming small objects") so that everyone with 6 ranks of Thievery isn’t exactly the same.
Use/Disable Magical Device (Cha) – as Use Magic Device in 3.5 + magical traps
I added the word “Disable” because it seems like in some adventures, PCs have to shut down the eldritch machine before it’s too late. Mostly they would use magic stuff, but sometimes they would want to sabotage it as well. If a rogue were trying to disable a magical trap, I might make them use this skill instead of the regular Disable Device. Even if the word “Disable” isn’t in the skill title, I think a bit about it in the skill description would be nice. Plus, “Use/Disable” goes nicely with my next one…
Use/Disable Mechanical Device (Int) – as Disable Device in 3.5 – magical traps
Depending on the campaign, characters may run into enough complex mechanical devices that a skill check would be useful. But mostly this is a way to expand Disable Device into something more than just foiling traps. It includes foiling traps, but also sabotaging clockworks and rigging non-magical machines to malfunction. As noted above in Use/Disable Magical Device, I would pull disabling magical traps out of here and add it there. One could stick Open Locks here if one wanted to consolidated all the mechanical skills, but I see Thievery as overwhelmingly Dex skills and using or disabling mechanical devices as more of an Int thing.
This shows very well one of the major problems i have with the 3.5 skills system...automatically assigning a given attribute to a skill. Changing the attribute used with a skill gives the skill a bit more flexibility.
Disable device could be Int to figure out what you have to do and dex to do it. Could even use Wis (for the perception aspect) for analyzing it.
In general i am against automatically assigning an attribute for every use of a skill.
This shows very well one of the major problems i have with the 3.5 skills system...automatically assigning a given attribute to a skill. Changing the attribute used with a skill gives the skill a bit more flexibility.
Disable device could be Int to figure out what you have to do and dex to do it. Could even use Wis (for the perception aspect) for analyzing it.
In general i am against automatically assigning an attribute for every use of a skill.
I agree, combining disable device and open lock should be done. Giving an Int for figuring it out, and Dex for performing the act sounds good to me.
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I agree, combining disable device and open lock should be done. Giving an Int for figuring it out, and Dex for performing the act sounds good to me.
I disagree. It may seem like a simple thing to say it here, but it makes the game more complex. Either you can't write the normal bonus on your character sheet, or it has to take two lines. Every time you're thinking of using this skill you're thinking 'is this more of a Dex based application or an Int based application'.
The first thing about dexterity - it applies to manual dexterity as well as whole body dexterity. In D&D you can't have one without the other. If you ever take a look at an overweight concert pianist you will see that you can have fine control of your digits and not be able to do somersaults or dodge anything. While sometimes the chosen modifier doesn't make TOO much sense, it should at least have a plausible explanation.
Thus, in the concert pianist's case, both Int and Dexterity might make 'plausible' explanations, but so does Charisma (the performer's ability to include the audience in the performance). We wouldn't want to give all three as a bonus, so we choose one. And in this case we choose Charisma.
So, for Disable Device (open lock + disable device) we choose the one that makes the most sense. I say Intelligence. The manual dexterity part of opening the lock is very easy - besides there are multiple ways to do it. Figuring out the quickest is the best thing.
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Disable device could be Int to figure out what you have to do and dex to do it. Could even use Wis (for the perception aspect) for analyzing it.
In general i am against automatically assigning an attribute for every use of a skill.
But we've got to assign something so we can all play the same game. In the end, we need a bottom line, even if it's a little arbitrary (like the overweight pianist example).
What I have seen and like are feats that allow you to swap out which ability score is key for a skill, like Weapon Finesse allows you to use Dex instead of Str for attack bonuses.
If Open Locks were a Dex skill, one could imagine a feat called Puzzle Solver that switches Open Locks to an Int skill plus a few other little perks. Or Light Touch that switches it to Perception because a PC's sense of touch it so refined, like a safe cracker.
Director of Games
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I am strongly leaning toward combining these two skills (Open Lock and Disable Device) and having both be based off Dexterity (as most seem players I have encounter seem to think that both work off Dex anyway). Although I can appreciate the Int logic, I think it is just simple for game play if they are both based off Dex and Pick Pocket (errr.. Sleight of Hand) returns to being its own distinct skill.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I am strongly leaning toward combining these two skills (Open Lock and Disable Device) and having both be based off Dexterity (as most seem players I have encounter seem to think that both work off Dex anyway). Although I can appreciate the Int logic,
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
What if there was a feat to make Open Locks Disable Device a int skill like the feat that makes Intimidate a Str based skill
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I am strongly leaning toward combining these two skills (Open Lock and Disable Device) and having both be based off Dexterity (as most seem players I have encounter seem to think that both work off Dex anyway). Although I can appreciate the Int logic,
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingWhat if there was a feat to make Open Locks Disable Device a int skill like the feat that makes Intimidate a Str based skill
While I personally would have gone with Int, I think that there is a strong argument for Dex, and that's all we really need to assign a skill ability modifier. So, good call. The fact is that by tying to Dex (traditional rogue ability) it will help retain rogues as the king of the trapsmiths, and help keep wizards from stepping on their toes (or wizard/rogues). So, that's a good thing.
As for the option to make a feat to use a different ability modifier - I think it makes sense for an ability that is as useful as an attack roll. If you're not making attack rolls like 20x more often than you're making disable device rolls, you're not playing the game right (just kidding, I know some people don't like combat - but you know what I'm saying, right?).
In any case, seeing a relative +4 on an attack bonus is certainly a feat well spent. Seeing up to an effective +4 on a skill check - it could be as well, I suppose. But since most rogues will have a dex and int closer to each other (at least at the beginning, before stat enhancements) I wouldn't think that the feat would be terribly useful - no more than the standard +3 for the skill focus feat.
If skill focus is kept as a feat, I think it should also make the skill a class skill for all of your classes (whatever form that takes).
If skill focus is kept as a feat, I think it should also make the skill a class skill for all of your classes (whatever form that takes).
The group I am playing with altered Skill Focus some. In our house rules you can only take Skill Focus for class skills. We introduced another feat that makes a cross-class skill a class skill from that point onwards. We found it useful for making an acrobatic fighter without having to multi-class into rogue as well as situations such as a fighter from a wizard family using a feat to make Knowledge: Arcana a class skill.
-Weylin
I've combined the skills two ways in my game:
Mechanics: Open Lock, Disable Device, Knowledge (architecture & engineering)
Trickery: Sleight of Hand, Disguise
I really like Mechanics, but I'm not so convinced about Trickery. I can see the similarities but I can also see a few differences. At first I thought Sleight of Hand was too weak by itself, but the more I think about it, the more useful it seems to be (pick pockets, conceal an item, loot an opponents body without the other PCs noticing...)
So perhaps I'm suggesting:
Mechanics (Int - I definitely think it should remain Int based)
Sleight of Hand (Dex)
Disguise (Cha)
What I'm thinking now is that activating a magic device and bypassing a magic trap really aren't all that different, and it's rogues that most often do both. So I'm proposing for my group that:
Disable Device = Disable Device + Open Lock + Use Magic Device
Sleight of Hand = Sleight of Hand skill + Quick Draw feat
The boost to SoH gets rid of a fairly lame feat, but gives the skill enough legs to stand on so that it doesn't need Open Locks or anything to bolster it. And besides, jugglers should be able to throw a lot of weapons, which is one of the functions of Quick Draw.
With regards to Disguise, I'm rolling it into Perform. I mean, if you're an actor, you should be familiar with costumes and impersonation, right?