ok I know this isn't a big thing right now but i HATE HATE HATE hate with the fury of a hundred thousand suns point buy. please do not make it default add it in a side bar if ya need to but not default . I like 4d6 drop the lowest. hell 3d6 straight up is better then point buy. I'm fine with no default or 3d6 ,4d6,5d6 but no point buy as default. I know I'll prob be out numbered here but I just hate it .
I have always had a similar problem, point buy was always to scripted, and people made some butt-ugly builds with it. 4d6 is often still not balanced (saying both fighters, one with stats like 13/14/11/8/7/12 and the other 18/17/16/12/11/17 are both CR1, happens to be a joke to me.)I have, in the past, given bonus feats to understated characters on a stat bonus to feat ratio. is a +2 to a stat worth a feat? often, and it make for different ways to be cool (now there are exceptions like the two stats above, what to i give the low stat fighter 10-12 extra feats?! Id rather have them reroll
If i ever have to use point-buy, I always use the DRAGON ANTE method of stat generation found in dragon magazine issue 346, pg 34. its a cool bring your character concept to life, and more importantly creates more organic builds with point-buy (and hides it)
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I like the point buy. Its kept many of my games civil, since several players often abused their stat generation (wouldn't build a character without a "natural" 18 roll).
I had them start rolling at the table, but then only one or two of my players were happy, since they'd roll the highest stats and others would be left with little more than 10's, 11's, and 12's in most stats. Even had a fight break out between two friends once over those same dice rolls (they were sore about it for weeks too).
We now pretty much exclusively go with the point buy (28 or 32 depending on DM), and we've enjoyed the game much better as a result.
Suffice it to say, there are the lucky and unlucky and the point buy corrects it. I wouldn't say that it should be default, but it has plenty of merit over the "classic" 3d6. Its also the design standard for monsters. If you want a good fight, I have to recommend a 25 point buy brawl.
I'm cool with point buy being in as a side bar I just dont wanna see it as default . my hate for it is just to much for that it seems.but I have no issue with making it available to those that wish to use it just never in my game.
I'm cool with point buy being in as a side bar I just dont wanna see it as default . my hate for it is just to much for that it seems.but I have no issue with making it available to those that wish to use it just never in my game.
Why can't it be default? How will it change your games if it is listed as the primary method rather than dice rolling?
Either way. It might be a good idea to put all the different stat generation methods in one place rather than having one as a primary and shoving the others in some other section.
For me, and some of my group, if we want to do a point buy fantasy game we will play GURPS. For us D&D, and by extension the Pathfinder RPG, means rolling dice for attributes. That being said, as long as rolling for attributes is an available option and is not trumped by a default point buy system, we're happy. If rolling stats is not an option, I am just going to have to add it. If rolling for stats "breaks the system" then I guess it's not a system I want to play.
Stephen Miller
Ancient Gamer & Curmudgeon
Slaying dragons and raiding dungeons since 1980
Why can't it be default? How will it change your games if it is listed as the primary method rather than dice rolling?Either way. It might be a good idea to put all the different stat generation methods in one place rather than having one as a primary and shoving the others in some other section.
how will it change my game I HATE IT .OH HOW I HATE IT. I will never use it ever . I want pathfinder to feel like my D&D game and rolling dice for stats is a part of that feel for me .I hate cookie cutter stuff sorry that's how it feels to me . but I would like to see a side bar with a few diff methods in the same place or have no default I just hate point buy to much gods you just don't know how much I hate it.
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If there's space for 2 different xp progressions, I think there'll be space for at least 2 stat generation methods: dice and point buy.
Although maybe they'll be different dice and point buy for the exact reason the xp chart is different, and we'll have things as:
* Roll 3d6 8 times, discard the lowest 2 totals.
* Distribute your stats as you like, but the total modifier has to be +3.
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I tend to favor the Stat rolling method over the Point buy system. I like it when characters end up with an 18 but also have a 4. It gives a broader range of ability scores and makes the player choose which stats get those numbers because they will have to roll play that really bad stat somehow. I think that's why most people favor point buy, it keeps them from having to roleplay something they don't want to. I have seen many cases were Point buy players will not have a stat under 10 because they don't want to have minuses and they wouldn't take an odd number because the even number gives the same bonus and allows simpler math. 4d6 is my method of choice for stats and it's 3.5's method as well. The DMG gives point buy as an option.
I tend to favor the Stat rolling method over the Point buy system. I like it when characters end up with an 18 but also have a 4. It gives a broader range of ability scores and makes the player choose which stats get those numbers because they will have to roll play that really bad stat somehow. I think that's why most people favor point buy, it keeps them from having to roleplay something they don't want to. I have seen many cases were Point buy players will not have a stat under 10 because they don't want to have minuses and they wouldn't take an odd number because the even number gives the same bonus and allows simpler math. 4d6 is my method of choice for stats and it's 3.5's method as well. The DMG gives point buy as an option.
I agree with everthing you say about the stats, but I tend to favor point buy because of the weakness of stat rolling. There are many cases that you will simply get a horrific set of rolls that makes 25 point buy look over powered (12, 12, 12, 11, 10, 10 comes to mind as one of my experiences), but are just above or at the minimum bonus to not be able to reroll.
Can it produce more interesting stats than point buy, I think so. However, in my experience, it doesn't do it often. More times than not I've seen people have an awesome character with no real drawbacks and the other characters who seemed to be behind in power.
How about using a point for point system? Give the Characters a set amount (between 65 and 80 depending on campaign) and have them design the characters. If not quite random enough, take 65 points and roll 2d6 and add, then divide between abilities (Note* 66 points makes character with Abilities average 11, while 72 gives average 12) I've used both with my players and no complaints yet. Or at least no serious whining.
How about using a point for point system? Give the Characters a set amount (between 65 and 80 depending on campaign) and have them design the characters. If not quite random enough, take 65 points and roll 2d6 and add, then divide between abilities (Note* 66 points makes character with Abilities average 11, while 72 gives average 12) I've used both with my players and no complaints yet. Or at least no serious whining.
GOds no please for the sake of all that is holy in this world or then next .NO NO NO NO WITH THE HATE OF A MILLION SCREAMING WORLDS AS THERE SUNS EXPLODE AND ALL LIFE IS EXTINGUISHED FOR EVER MORE NO!.
I hate point buy in any shape or spirits cured form I hate them so much it hurts me to see them NO. no them in a side bar i can live with for other player but not as default .
sorry for the rant have i said i hate point buy?
man I have played with my highest state was +1 and had a -2 and every one else lowest was +2 yep the dice gods hatted me that day...and you know what I had a blast my stats are not my char they are a part of him but not his whole hell we played 3d6 straight the first 3 years i played d&d and that was ad&d so yeah i play em as they are no fuss when you whine because man i got a 12 that's only like a +1 then I just dont know what to say and be nice. and thangar the fighter with his strength of 12 kicked ass.
yep I can there pretty much alike in a lot of ways for one all had rolling d6's as default. and if my bad grammar is an issue man dont read it.sorry man your post came off as condescending so if my grammar is an issue thats yours not mine.
In that default array the +2 primary attribute modifier is generally worth +5 points of point buy since it is usually applied to the primary stat.
In all of my games I've knixed stat rolling. It lead to some very unbalancing stats. With only 1 usually rolling ridiculously high stats and the rest getting shafted. On occassion I've had the majority of the group roll freakin' fantastic for all their stats, but I tell you this it is damn hard to run for a group who's collective lowest stat is 14.
So we use the point buy system, it makes sure every one is on par.
It is the best stat generation I have ever used. I love it.
I like having a smattering of different methods to pick from. Honestly I'd like it if Pathfinder didn't even waste much page count on it. I personally use the "4d6 drop lowest" approach, and usually let players roll 7 rolls and drop the lowest of those. That ends up usually with a nice even spread. But on the other hand, I can see the need in some groups for a point-buy, to keep the guy with all 12s and 13s to get grumpy and jealous when another player gets all 17s and 18s. It happens.
That said, I hope they don't waste a page talking about a dozen different ways to put numbers on a character sheet. Maybe a box off to the side mentioning the 4d6 method and a much simpler version of point buy and that's it. I want my Pathfinder to be full of other stuff--race stuff, class stuff, magic, feats, gear. Anywhere else that space can be cut is great with me. Heck, axe the whole combat section and I'd be a happy guy.
On one hand, we know that point buy isn't happening in its present form.
Point buy isn't open content, so if it does happen, it will need to be reworked like xp.