
Sylvain Hamel |
Here is a suggestion.
Instead of changing the way turning works. Introduce cleric spells/powers that channel healing so that it takes quite a while to heal someone (example 1hp/level per round). This would make healing during the encounter very impractical (though I can find a few exciting situations where the PCs would have to defend their cleric while he heals someone) but would enable after encounter healing. Hence reducing the need for resting after a few encounters. It solves the same problem as the turning rule but in a much more elegant way I think.

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I think that one of the reasons they did change turning however is that the turning system back in 3.5 is rather clunky on its own. Aside from having to memorize the set of numbers that you role for(and the corresponding level adjustment it gives you) it is mostly a useless ability very quickly.
For the first couple of levels you can turn things like skeletons or zombies, if you roll adequately. However beyond that, it quickly becomes less feasible because undead have to add hit dice much more quickly then characters do to maintain a challenge, because undead hitdice are weaker. That means that if you are going to be facing an undead that is a cr 8, meaning something you could face as early as level 5, its probably going to have in the neighborhood of 12HD+, well beyond what you could turn even with a maxed out turning check of level +3, and thats discounting turn resist.
Turning quickly becomes something that is a good way to add a bit of flavor by making the cleric waste an action(a 10th level party finding 30 skeletons in a room around the guy whose the actual boss) or if the DM comes up with something non-combat related that can be overcome by channeling positive energy, like an evil altar, but not for much else.
I thought the pathfinder modules did a good job of turning this around in some ways, giving undead ways of being tough without adding HD so they could still be within range of the cleric and also including haunts so that all those turns feel useful. But the PFRPG seems to go much further with that.
Now turning seems a viable alternative, a no brainer if you are fighting a swarm of undead(I hurt them and heal us? Awesome.), questionable tactics if you are fighting mixed enemies(I'll probably nuke their undead and heal us a bit, but I'm going to be healing their fighters a bit too, is it worth it?), and very cool for undead focused clerics(I can mass heal my minions and hurt the enemy while leaving msyelf out of the radius.
These rules also fix something thats often disliked in other forms in the game as well, the all or nothing rule. With turning, like destruction or the like, either the undead are there and fine, or they are essentially out of the fight permanently. The new rules mean that the cleric can do damage, helping the fighter to cut them down more quickly rather then risking something that either instantly wins the fight or is worthless.
Also, the will save on check for the undead means that intelligent undead and more powerful ones are more likely to be resistant to it, as they should be which feels very good in terms of flavor. And I think the way you balanced in turn resistance is wonderful, making it feel more like a 'positive energy resistance' against turn checks and letting the creature have a better chance then a normal one to stave off the panick.
All in all, I think the system is well done.
-Tarlane

Sylvain Hamel |
In my opinion, 2 wrongs dont make a right.
If turning is broken fix it. In my mind there are multiple ways to do it with modification to either undead HD or turning mechanism.
Using turning with healing is counter intuitive to me and you create somekind of mongrel ability. Turning is for undeads, leave it that way.
I thought my method was way mot elegant and easy to apply. Same results, taste better.
I think that one of the reasons they did change turning however is that the turning system back in 3.5 is rather clunky on its own. Aside from having to memorize the set of numbers that you role for(and the corresponding level adjustment it gives you) it is mostly a useless ability very quickly.
For the first couple of levels you can turn things like skeletons or zombies, if you roll adequately. However beyond that, it quickly becomes less feasible because undead have to add hit dice much more quickly then characters do to maintain a challenge, because undead hitdice are weaker. That means that if you are going to be facing an undead that is a cr 8, meaning something you could face as early as level 5, its probably going to have in the neighborhood of 12HD+, well beyond what you could turn even with a maxed out turning check of level +3, and thats discounting turn resist.
Turning quickly becomes something that is a good way to add a bit of flavor by making the cleric waste an action(a 10th level party finding 30 skeletons in a room around the guy whose the actual boss) or if the DM comes up with something non-combat related that can be overcome by channeling positive energy, like an evil altar, but not for much else.
I thought the pathfinder modules did a good job of turning this around in some ways, giving undead ways of being tough without adding HD so they could still be within range of the cleric and also including haunts so that all those turns feel useful. But the PFRPG seems to go much further with that.
Now turning seems a viable alternative, a no brainer if you are fighting a swarm of undead(I hurt them and heal us? Awesome.), questionable tactics if you are fighting mixed enemies(I'll probably nuke their undead and heal us a bit, but I'm going to be healing their fighters a bit too, is it worth it?), and very cool for undead focused clerics(I can mass heal my minions and hurt the enemy while leaving msyelf out of the radius.
These rules also fix something thats often disliked in...
*typo

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I think that turning doing both damaging and healing seems instinctively wrong because those two seem so opposed to each other. We don't normally visually positive(or negative) energy being different then any other energy type. The good gods might be sending that damage but its still damage.
However the system isn't that far from others in the book, effects like cure spells or lay on hands use positive energy to the same result. You touch an undead they sizzle, you touch a person and its nice. This just does that to a wider area.
Does add some neat ideas though, the necromancer who takes tomb tainted soul so that when he 'rebukes' his undead it heals him while hurting the party, but who takes damage when the cleric turns just as his minions do.
-Tarlane

Blue_eyed_paladin |

Actually, now that turning does something different, maybe we should be thinking about it as a different name.
Call it 'channeling positive energy' or 'channeling negative energy'. After all, it heals people (or harms them) and has an effect on undead, as well. If you call it 'turn undead', there is still a connotation that its only use is in dealing with the undead (but not any more!).
Come to think of it, this now makes cleric-led mass battles much more effective. You just wait until everyone in a unit is hurting, then get the cleric to heal a 30-foot burst around themselves. With a 5th-level cleric, everyone living in that radius is getting back 3d6 hit points. Certainly nothing to sneeze at.