Again, why does that give people the right to be rude, obnoxious, and insulting? There are plenty of people on these boards who feel that way and can argue and complain without being insulting. Be angry, be upset, but don't insult people. There is no reason people can't be polite and civil other than not wanting to or not trying to.Woah. Hold on a moment. I am not pretending to be speaking for Blackdragon here, but I don't think s/he was arguing for, advocating, or in any other way supporting people being rude, obnoxious, or insulting.
I feel Blackdragon was attempting to answer a question, in an honest fashion.
And now that I have had some breakfast, I think I can add some further insight.
While Paizo/Lisa Stevens/etc. might not understand it, they really should start expecting a backlash everytime a/any company "threatens" to take away something we have come to enjoy.
There was lashing ot with the cancellation of the print Dragon and Dungeon magazines. There is lashing when WotC announced 4th Edition (which is, essentially, cancelling 3.X), there was lashing over the announced moderation change (some of us had come to enjoy the way the forums were), Hell there was even a minor lashing out over the Gamemastery Modules getting changed to Pathfinder modules and getting reduced in schedule (although that quickly subsided when it was clear they weren't being canceled, just "rearranged").
So, even if they don't understand it, they should start expecting it.
Oh, and maybe there is a difference of opinion. I do not equate lashing out with being rude, obnoxious, or insulting. Although, I can see how some could.
I don't have a problem with people being upset about the changes but I don't think that it is unreasonable to ask for and expect a certain level of civility from posters. The on going problem is that all requests for such civility have been ignored and now Paizo feels a need to do something about it.
I'm not saying it give people a right to be insulting, inflamitory, or cruel. What I am saying is it is human nature that we you feel cornered or threatened to lash out. People make the assumption that everyone has the exact same coping mechanisims to deal with stress and anger. They don't. You also can't assume that everyone will function at the same level of articulate speech and be able to convey their thoughts without giving in to rage. I'm not condoning it, but the behavious not surprising.You may say you're not condoning it, but you've spent several posts trying to justify it.
If people are unable to write a post about a GAME on an internet messageboard without "giving in to rage," I'd suggest that people have a serious anger management issue. Rage? Come on. There are many things in life that are worthy of working yourself into a froth over, but at the end of the day, this is a game. Disappointment, I'd understand. Concern, sure. Being somewhat upset, fine. Rage, to the point where it's impossible to carry on a civil conversation?
Why is this starting to remind me of the Blue Eye-Brown Eye experiments?
I don't have a problem with people being upset about the changes but I don't think that it is unreasonable to ask for and expect a certain level of civility from posters. The on going problem is that all requests for such civility have been ignored and now Paizo feels a need to do something about it.
Yes, I expect to see as much civility as I see in Parliment in Great Britian. ... Ok, maybe a little more. ;)
There are many things in life that are worthy of working yourself into a froth over, but at the end of the day, this is a game.
Maybe you have a better life than me, but all the things that I find in life to get worked up into a froth over I can't affect one way or another.
I do have some. albeit small, chance of affecting the game I play.
Therefor, working myself up into a froth over a game is more productive than working myself up into a froth over anything else in life.
CEO
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My concern is what Paizo is going to do with Pathfinder because I have really enjoyed the world you have created. My greatest fear is that you are going to trash your world to cram it into the little box that WotC has created for it's core world (If you can call it that) and cosmology.
Just for the record, I have mentioned a number of times on this board in relation to 4e that Paizo will NOT change Golarion. We will NOT change the style of adventures that we write. We are really happy with the world and the stories that we are telling. If we can't keep the world the way it is and can't tell the stories the way we want, then that would be a huge problem. Rest assured that whether we go to 4e or stay with 3.5, Golarion and the stories we tell will stay the same.
-Lisa
Woah. Hold on a moment. I am not pretending to be speaking for Blackdragon here, but I don't think s/he was arguing for, advocating, or in any other way supporting people being rude, obnoxious, or insulting.
Disenchanter,
Here is the problem. This thread isn’t just about the whys and wherefore’s of peoples passion/anger. The OP tied together and explanation of said anger with:
While “moderation” certainly applies to those inclined to support 4e as well such moderation is a chimera for there is nothing there to moderate because those favoring 4e are nothing but praiseful. They can be easily civil and polite because they are for the emerging status quo. You, Ms. Stevens, I suggest have been gulled in the name of politeness and civility by a well phrased request to muzzle those questioning 4e.”
Here he basically says flat out says anti-4e people cannot be polite and get their point across. That it gives an advantage to pro-4e people because they don’t have to be angry. This is unfair, give us an exception to the rules.
He then goes on:
I must remind you that Paizo has been more than a mere bystander in how the tenor of the Paizo message boards have developed. Paizo has encouraged those questioning 4e to find expression here and, should Paizo decide after seeing the GSL to stick with 3e, Paizo will have profited by this policy. Indeed, Paizo has attracted those not inclined to immediately support 4e to Paizo’s site and thereby profited already. Paizo’s hands are not clean and to use another cliché, the genie cannot now be placed back in the bottle, at least not without some breakage.
Here he now makes Lisa and Pazio complicit in the tone and tenor. You brought us here for your own ends and benefit thus because you are responsible for us being here give us an exception to the rules.
Then it goes to my favorite line (in bold):
I’d prefer a level playing field. I prefer no ticky tack fouls and that the players be allowed to play, particularly as this game is largely at Paizo’s specific invitation. If you prefer, however, a “moderated” forum that advantages one group, and summon up what logic you will but the fact remains that those in opposition to anything are always more subject to being “moderated,” I can live with that. Paizo may, however, find me as dubious about matters as the poster who first inquired “Is this board really how Paizo wants to be represented?” I can withhold my patronage as easily as the previous guy, particularly if or when Paizo goes 4e.
Ah yes, the threat. I can take my ball (money) and go somewhere else. Give me an exception to the rules.
Now Blackdragon comes along and shows his passion and you say:
Here, F'n here!
Or, QFT for everyone else.
That in and of itself if just dandy. I get where you guys are coming from, I have empathy for you (I have been you in previous edition changes, with the ending of print Dragon and Dungeon magazine).
Do you hear me saying that I hear you? That I get it? That I can empathize with you?
However, my sympathy only extends so far. It still does not move me one millimeter off my firmly held belief that there are no exceptions to the forum rules. That I really just don’t care about why someone chose to violate the rules.
You, Blackdragon, and the original OP are not entitled to use your anger to brow beat everyone else that does not share your position (that includes the minority 4e cheerleading squad and the majority that doesn’t care/on the fence). If your position cannot be expressed any other way than vitriol and attacks (something I find doubtful) I am saddened for you.
If you need to process your anger or spank your inner child or whatever, go find a therapist, religious adviser or whatever therapy is your poison and deal with it.
My Two Coppers,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
4e Fence Sitter
...If you need to process your anger or spank your inner child ...
Ooh, a spanking, a spanking! Naughty, naughty Zoot!
Sorry, just thought we needed a wee bit o' levity. =)
I would say that is more understandable that 3.5 supporters are more negative than 4th supporters when it comes to 4th edition. Whether that means they are more likely to be "rude", I can't say, but I would say that there comments would be more negative, because they would be arguing against 4th edition. Now these positions would be and have been reversed when it comes to 3.5 edition. With 4th supporters being more negative, though not necessarily more "rude", in that case.
Now the question is, when does being negative = being rude. For some, always. In fact Lisa even said in her post that her mom told her if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Rarely is saying something negative going to be considered "nice".
Excellent post Amber. And maybe its just me, but I haven't seen you posting here in a while. Its good to have you back.
Thanks, it has been a while. That pesky 'real life' thing again. :)
I knew some people would get mad over my post, but I decided the risk of hurt feelings was worth expressing myself. There is a lot of resistance against censorship being expressed here, but when I say something unpopular those same people accuse me of being insulting and unhelpful.
And you know what? I'm fine with that. I'm willing to accept that others will judge me based on the content of my posts. That's what free expression is all about -- knowing that you'll make someone, somewhere, mad. I think this debate, and related threads, are silly and only hurting the cause of those who are upset with Paizo. That's allowed. I can feel however want.
In just the same way, some people probably see me as a Paizo fangirl with no opinions of my own and a smug sense of self-satisfaction. I'm willing to accept that judgement of me because it's important to state my opinion. And while I might feel that this debate is silly, I in no way think the debators are silly. For God's sake, I don't think there's a person alive with an internet connection who hasn't been worked up over something read or expressed online, no matter how trivial.
I won't apologize for my priorities, though, nor for my suggestions. A walk outside and some volunteer work will unquestionably relieve some of the tension garnered in messageboard posting. Unless someone is actually suggesting that if I can't post something mild enough to anger no one, and which contains something helpful, I shouldn't post anything at all?
-Amber S.
Now the question is, when does being negative = being rude. For some, always. In fact Lisa even said in her post that her mom told her if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Rarely is saying something negative going to be considered "nice".
Pres man,
I think the way you frame your argument puts you in a position of not being able to post. Being negative != rude. The act of negating, opposing can be positive. It is in how you do it.
You are for no edition change (stance) how you express that is civil or rude.
If you jump into a 4e topic on, say the nature of elves in 4e, and attack WotC, the people that like the change, and/or 4e in general, you are being rude and off topic. You are in essence threadjacking or threadcrapping.
If instead you come to the list say I am not fond of the new edition and in this case 4e elves don't do it for you because of X, Y, Z. You have made your point, are on topic, and have not taken it to the personal. This is civil.
I guess this also goes to goal. Are you trying to debate your point and topics? Or, have you given up all hope and are just acting the spoiler? If its the former, you can be civil. If its the later the goal almost precludes being civil.
Does this expand your options?
Thanks for listening,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
4e Fence Sitter
You're right, but some of those boards were a bit more predisposed to Phase 4 than regular boards...; )
*EXAGGERATED WINK*
:D
I am running late for work, so I can only briefly touch on the topic now. So this is the point I choose:
You, Blackdragon, and the original OP are not entitled to use your anger to brow beat everyone else that does not share your position (that includes the minority 4e cheerleading squad and the majority that doesn’t care/on the fence). If your position cannot be expressed any other way than vitriol and attacks (something I find doubtful) I am saddened for you.
First, again I would say Blackdragon, and I know myself, aren't condoning the vitriol or attacks. I'd like to think that my posts haven't come off as such. But then again, as many have stated, attacks and insults are in the eye of the receiver. Most insults thrown around here are unintentional.
And on top of that, when I started posting here, Sebastian lined up to give - nearly - every new poster a "spanking" and brow beating when their posts infuriated him some way or another. In a sense, he set the tone. And now forum regulars are speaking out against those that adopted the tone and not just against those throwing intentional insults. The very tone they accepted in Sebastian. Even if they never agreed with it.
So, I do ask for your forgiveness, but that comes off as more than a little hypocritical - and condescending. Although I am certain you didn't mean it that way.
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It is my distinct impression that the boards have a lot of new members. 4x or 5x the number of posters as they did even 6 months ago. I'm sure Paizo would be able to confirm that. In any case, with a rapidly growing community, we've had our trouble 'integrating' everybody. Certainly there are people who have come in with a more aggressive stance than is necessary.
Most of these people will come around and become respected members of the community. As a community we've done a good job of moderating ourselves *for the most part*. Paizo should be extremely happy to be associated with the boards and the 'active community'.
Now, the 4th edition threads seem to have the most 'strangers' and the most 'disagreement'. Even before the 'open letter', it was mostly getting better. 'Trolling threads' weren't getting the same play as they might. They'd go away after a couple of days (but always replaced by new ones). For the most part, the community has been adept at determining which threads are 'useless' from the beginning. With thread titles like 'Why the New Rogue blows Donkeys' people knew what the OP's agenda would be. With threads like 'Is anyone else as excited about 4th edition as I am?' people would know what was going to be in that thread.
Certainly some posters went into those places to 'disagree' with the OP. And that's where the fighting has been. But I don't think it has 'clouded' the whole community, or even the 4th edition boards. Sure, you have to be a little careful, but most people know what they're getting when they go to the thread. There may be a few that 'appear neutral' but turn out not to be. They are a minority.
I'm not particularly concerned about moderation - I expect that I'll continue to keep saying the things I want to say about anything, really, without fear of having my comments removed or edited.
That said, other than the fact that it is ill-mannered to do so, I think it is unfair to allow 'gushing' toward people but deny the ability to 'bash'. Basically, a high opinion may be held of a designer or game developer for no other reason than their association with the game - without an understanding of their motivations and true behavior. A game designer could be a horrible person - poisoning babies in his or her spare time, for instance - and people who don't know them will say 'I LOVE so-and-so'. It seems that someone cannot say 'I HATE so-and-so'. If the purpose is to be able to discuss the GAME, we whould be basing our opinions on what the person has done FOR THE GAME. And so while we should never say 'so-and-so's mommy is a bad person' why shouldn't we say 'so-and-so is a hack. Every product that they've ever designed has been crap'.
Now, I don't think we NEED to say this, but I think we should be able to. I didn't complain when people were calling Gary Gygax a hack in the Planet Stories Thread. Those of us who disagreed with the poster explained WHY we didn't think so.
And if someone thinks that a current 4th edition designer is a hack, why isn't that a valid opinion?
I think that because the regulars don't know what is or isn't acceptable there is a big concern that the tenor of the boards will change. And I don't know that is a good thing. If you hang around a couple of weeks you can see how the whole thing works. For example, I know that most of Sebastian's posts will contain personal attacks, and I largely ignore what he says as irrelevant to the conversation. Others enjoy his scathing sarcastic wit and are willing to let him have a pass - and I frequently include myself in that number. Sure, I think it would be good for him to give people more of a break, and I've even told him so a time or two.
But I think everyone in this community will be disappointed if we 'bubblewrap' everything. Better to allow a few inappropriate posts and make sure people feel that they are free to express themselves. Mature posters will be able to ignore the inappropriate posts, and given enough time the regular posters will educate the newcomers on the accepted norms.
We've been a successful self-regulating community for a long time. That hasn't changed. I think we simply need more time to bring things under control in this particular board - and a whole host of threads about fear of censorship won't contribute to that.
This problem will also largely go away when a final decision for whether to go 4th edition is reached. Unfortunately, I don't think a 'Final Decision' is possible. I don't imagine for a moment that the 3rd AP will be 4th edition, and then why convert in February of 2009 when GenCon is a more appropriate place for it. So, in that sense, there may be quite a bit more time before a 'final decision' is reached.
In any case, I hope that we can start to trust each other to avoid personal attacks, and when confronted with one, refrain from firing back. Call it a personal attack, respond APPROPRIATELY (be polite even if the person doesn't deserve it and remind them how it doesn't help the conversation or debate), and move on to your points. I know we can do it.
First, again I would say Blackdragon, and I know myself, aren't condoning the vitriol or attacks. I'd like to think that my posts haven't come off as such. But then again, as many have stated, attacks and insults are in the eye of the receiver. Most insults thrown around here are unintentional.
So if you get feedback from the moderators that you have crossed line X, it’s ok because it was unintentional?
Further, I am not saying that you and Blackdragon are advocating attacks. I am saying that you and Blackdragon are posting on a topic that is about more than the first 3/4th's of the OP's argument (why he is angry). You are basically tying your posts to the OPs and I am merely pointing out that it moves me none when you move beyond feeling angry to acting out on the forums.
And on top of that, when I started posting here, Sebastian lined up to give - nearly - every new poster a "spanking" and brow beating when their posts infuriated him some way or another. In a sense, he set the tone. And now forum regulars are speaking ot against those that adopted the tone and not just against those throwing intentional insults. The very tone they accepted in Sebastian. Even if they never agreed with it.
Am I Sebastian? No. But this is a subtle attempt link me and others with him somehow lets you off the hook is disingenuous. You are using the OP’s complicity argument again. You all let the bad man attack me thus give me an exception to the rules. In a nutshell, No. If you have a problem with Sebastian and his behavior take it up with the forum mods.
So, I do ask for your forgiveness, but that comes off as more than a little hypocritical - and condescending. Although I am certain you didn't mean it that way.
Am I your confessor? No. Forgiveness is something given to those that have wronged me, have you wronged me? No. My forgiveness is for those I deem needing it in the first place and worthy of it in the second. It is off topic and not relevant to the issues of my post.
Am I a hypocrite? Again, you refer back to my complicity because I didn’t protect you from Sebastian. Since it is not my job to moderate this board and I didn’t see it happen, nice deflection of the issue.
Am I condescending? I leave that for you to judge, I see myself as direct and too the point.
If you want to debate me on the issues of this topic I will gladly have a back and forth with you. I will be civil and on topic.
In Service,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
4e Fence Sitter
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Because some people feel that it's all they have left.
Maybe you have a better life than me, but all the things that I find in life to get worked up into a froth over I can't affect one way or another.
So... I'm looking forward to 4th edition, but even so, you seem like nice enough folks and I'm sorry you feel like you do. I want to help.
So I thought I'd throw out some ideas for you to do something about what you're feeling rather then lash out. You know, constructive, positive stuff.
The best and most obvious way you could influence Paizo is to buy more of their products. Become a supersubscriber or whatever it is. Being a business, they should listen more urgently to the people that are their current, best customers.
Another thing you could do is write some reviews. Mr. Blackdragon and Mr. Disenchanter haven't written any reviews at all. If you really love the Paizo products as they are right now, say so. Write positive reviews for the products you own and specifically mention how you like them being 3.5 edition.
Obviously you should be responding to any and all of the survey's that paizo puts out as well as any postings put out by their staff. They also publish their e-mail addresses so you should be providing feedback to them directly.
I'm sure other folks might have some ideas as well.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And on top of that, when I started posting here, Sebastian lined up to give - nearly - every new poster a "spanking" and brow beating when their posts infuriated him some way or another. In a sense, he set the tone. And now forum regulars are speaking out against those that adopted the tone and not just against those throwing intentional insults. The very tone they accepted in Sebastian. Even if they never agreed with it.
Hey, leave me out of this crap. I don't berate all new posters, I berate all stupid posts. To the extent it falls disproportionately on the new, it's because I quickly learn who is actually going to step up and start posting something intelligent and who's going to continue with the same unreasoned crap. I tend to have a good relationship with the former and generally begin ignoring the later.
And while I have no doubt that I am the coolest, most articulate, sexiest, most modest, and all around best guy who posts here, I'm just another random poster. If you want to start the latest and greatest "won't someone stop Sebastian" lynching mob, more power to you. I'm due for my quarterly drubbing as that bad man that no one stands up to and ruins the Paizo boards for all other posters. I can't say I'll be participating in it; I don't feel any particular need to defend or justify my conduct.
You, Blackdragon, and the original OP are not entitled to use your anger to brow beat everyone else that does not share your position (that includes the minority 4e cheerleading squad and the majority that doesn’t care/on the fence). If your position cannot be expressed any other way than vitriol and attacks (something I find doubtful) I am saddened for you.
Personally I think I've held my temper very well. The only "attack" I have leveled is at WotC's PR department whose methods I find insulting. What I do find interesting is the number of people on these boards that if they don't like what is being said to them, call it an "attack" and cry foul. Believe me, If I decide to verbally attack someone, trust me, you will know (At least for the ten seconds the post is left up.)
So why are you always berating me, Sebastian?
My concern is what Paizo is going to do with Pathfinder because I have really enjoyed the world you have created. My greatest fear is that you are going to trash your world to cram it into the little box that WotC has created for it's core world (If you can call it that) and cosmology.Just for the record, I have mentioned a number of times on this board in relation to 4e that Paizo will NOT change Golarion. We will NOT change the style of adventures that we write. We are really happy with the world and the stories that we are telling. If we can't keep the world the way it is and can't tell the stories the way we want, then that would be a huge problem. Rest assured that whether we go to 4e or stay with 3.5, Golarion and the stories we tell will stay the same.
-Lisa
All I have ever asked of Paizo is to continue turning out the quality products that I've come to expect.I don't care what the rules system is, because I have to convert it to 2E anyway (Though I would perfer 3.5 because I can do the conversion in my head.) The only thing I really hate is Delve format. I have the utmost respect for Paizo and it's staff, and I'm not the least bit upset about the moderation of the boards. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long.
Just keep up the good work, and I'll be with Paizo whereever it goes.
If you need to process your anger or spank your inner child or whatever, go find a therapist, religious adviser or whatever therapy is your poison and deal with it.
Just for the record, D&D is my therapy. Without it I would most likely be a serial killer...or a Televangilist. It's had to say. It could have gone either way.
Just for the record, D&D is my therapy. Without it I would most likely be a serial killer...or a Televangilist. It's had to say. It could have gone either way.
So your edition of choice will take you to your happy place? Problem solved, play your edition of choice.
Tongue Firmly In Cheek,
Bryan Blumklotz
AKA Saracenus
4e Fence Sitter
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If you need to process your anger or spank your inner child or whatever, go find a therapist, religious adviser or whatever therapy is your poison and deal with it.Just for the record, D&D is my therapy. Without it I would most likely be a serial killer...or a Televangilist. It's had to say. It could have gone either way.
I know that was a joke and I take no offense, but a former regular/employee at my FLGS is a serial killer currently on death row.
Because some people feel that it's all they have left.
Maybe you have a better life than me, but all the things that I find in life to get worked up into a froth over I can't affect one way or another.
So... I'm looking forward to 4th edition, but even so, you seem like nice enough folks and I'm sorry you feel like you do. I want to help.
So I thought I'd throw out some ideas for you to do something about what you're feeling rather then lash out. You know, constructive, positive stuff.
The best and most obvious way you could influence Paizo is to buy more of their products. Become a supersubscriber or whatever it is. Being a business, they should listen more urgently to the people that are their current, best customers.
Another thing you could do is write some reviews. Mr. Blackdragon and Mr. Disenchanter haven't written any reviews at all. If you really love the Paizo products as they are right now, say so. Write positive reviews for the products you own and specifically mention how you like them being 3.5 edition.
Obviously you should be responding to any and all of the survey's that paizo puts out as well as any postings put out by their staff. They also publish their e-mail addresses so you should be providing feedback to them directly.
I'm sure other folks might have some ideas as well.
I am a subscriber. the tag is on my wife's screen name.(I like Paizo, but not enoug to pay for two subscriptions.) As far as reviews, I don't bother to read other peoples review, I wouldn't use their advice anyway. As a Charter Subscriber to Pathfinder (And former to Dungeon & Dragon) I don't post feedback on what I buy on my account because it's usually birthday/ Solstic/ aniversary stuff for my wife, So I don't want to advertise a gift. SHe's on these boards too.
And on top of that, when I started posting here, Sebastian lined up to give - nearly - every new poster a "spanking" and brow beating when their posts infuriated him some way or another. In a sense, he set the tone. And now forum regulars are speaking out against those that adopted the tone and not just against those throwing intentional insults. The very tone they accepted in Sebastian. Even if they never agreed with it.
Hey, leave me out of this crap. I don't berate all new posters, I berate all stupid posts. To the extent it falls disproportionately on the new, it's because I quickly learn who is actually going to step up and start posting something intelligent and who's going to continue with the same unreasoned crap. I tend to have a good relationship with the former and generally begin ignoring the later.
And while I have no doubt that I am the coolest, most articulate, sexiest, most modest, and all around best guy who posts here, I'm just another random poster. If you want to start the latest and greatest "won't someone stop Sebastian" lynching mob, more power to you. I'm due for my quarterly drubbing as that bad man that no one stands up to and ruins the Paizo boards for all other posters. I can't say I'll be participating in it; I don't feel any particular need to defend or justify my conduct.
I think being on the business end of a tongue lashing from you is like a board hazing. You just need to explain to them the propper response is: "Thank you Sir, May I have another?"
This has already been responded to, but Sebastian is an individual.. he's not the basis of a policy.
I won't belabor the point any further, other than to point out that responses he does or does not receive to his posts don't set any precedent.
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And while I have no doubt that I am the coolest...guy who posts here...
I'm not so sure about this part. For my money, this title should go to Mr Logue....
If you want to start the latest and greatest "won't someone stop Sebastian" lynching mob, more power to you.
I thought it was my turn to lead the lynch mob against you?!? Now you're going to let Disenchanter do it just because he wrote a post about you? Jeez, you're as bad as the Paizo staff!
If you need to process your anger or spank your inner child or whatever, go find a therapist, religious adviser or whatever therapy is your poison and deal with it.Just for the record, D&D is my therapy. Without it I would most likely be a serial killer...or a Televangilist. It's had to say. It could have gone either way.
QFT
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Sorry if I am not as eloquent as the OP but english is not my native language...
I guess that they try to influence Paizo decision regarding 4E but I'm not sure that's the best way to accomplish that...
If a market still exist for 3.5 products and that the Paizo fanbase is solid why the more vocals of those fan decided to quit the boat as soon as Paizo ask for a minimum of civility?
How do 3.5 fan think that Paizo can do business with a fanbase so fragile and so volatile?
SNIP
So instead of loosing their time bashing a system that they have no intention of playing why don't they try instead to make it clear to Paizo that there is enough people to support the 3.5 industry? By the comments they made regarding 4E until now, I am pretty sure that Erik Mona and James Jacob already prefer 3.5 over 4E as the system...
Very good point. I agree with you.
I will certainly try to buy any 3.5 product I can grab, especially those from Paizo. Cost and print run are not issues for me.
I know quality deserves some price.
I previously said I would still buy Paizo adventures, even written for 4e, if quality remains the same, and I trust Paizo with this. I would still prefer the same product in 3.5 though, no matter how good it is for 4e.
I still believe that Paizo best spell is "turn XXXX to gold", and I still stand by this opinion.
I do not see myself buying ANY other 4e product ever. That would just be a waste of resource for me, and since I expect heavy expenses for the next two years, this is non negociable.
Hey, the others ! Show yourselves !
I think being on the business end of a tongue lashing from you is like a board hazing. You just need to explain to them the proper response is: "Thank you Sir, May I have another?"
Seriously.. I prefer to think that Sebastian encourages thoughtful posting.
I know you're trying to interject some levity, but I don't think there's any frat initiation required here. An intelligent friendly poster doesn't need to run a guantlet at Paizo.com, and Sebastian doesn't actually seem to impose one either.
If I'm lacking much of a sense of humor it's because I really don't see any just cause in being a jerk. And this started out as a heavy serious thread, so I'm adhering to the tone set by the first post.
There's no just cause in being a jerk on these boards. What somebody else does is what somebody else does.
I think the way you frame your argument puts you in a position of not being able to post. Being negative != rude. The act of negating, opposing can be positive. It is in how you do it.
And yet some will always take it is as a negative. That was my point. Someone will always take constructive critism as being an attack on them, thus comments of "don't be rude" without saying what it means to be rude are meaningless.
If instead you come to the list say I am not fond of the new edition and in this case 4e elves don't do it for you because of X, Y, Z. You have made your point, are on topic, and have not taken it to the personal. This is civil.
And what if the reason is a totally subjective one? "I don't like the new version of elves because it does not 'feel' like D&D elves to me. In fact that seem more like anime elves." Is that valid? Yet, no sooner would such a post be made that others would take it as some slick attempt at calling 4th edition an anime game. And yet the statement does not support anything of the kind, it is merely one poster presenting a 'feeling' they are getting of new elves. There is nothing objective about that feeling, nothing they can point to and say, "Right here is the proof." It is subjective thing. And yet, by some (maybe not you, but others), would see it as an attack.
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And yet some will always take it is as a negative. That was my point. Someone will always take constructive critism as being an attack on them, thus comments of "don't be rude" without saying what it means to be rude are meaningless.
The new board rules don't say anything about being rude. Paizo is asking us not to insult people. i think that distinction is fairly clear.
And what if the reason is a totally subjective one? "I don't like the new version of elves because it does not 'feel' like D&D elves to me. In fact that seem more like anime elves." Is that valid? Yet, no sooner would such a post be made that others would take it as some slick attempt at calling 4th edition an anime game. And yet the statement does not support anything of the kind, it is merely one poster presenting a 'feeling' they are getting of new elves. There is nothing objective about that feeling, nothing they can point to and say, "Right here is the proof." It is subjective thing. And yet, by some (maybe not you, but others), would see it as an attack.
To say something feel like anime is not an insult. It is not a negative characterization of a person. To say that 4E was designed for idiots would be a negative attribution targeting the character of a person.
The folks at Paizo have asked us not to make it personal. Is it really that hard to avoid personal attacks while discussing 4E?
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I would agree.The way some people talk you'd think this was life or death. Maybe we should get off the computer and go walk in the real world for a while. Do some volunteer work, sponsor a food drive, or protest atrocities in Darfur. Something meaningful.And this type of insult is helpful how? You answer to these people is "Get a life!"
I think this type of response is where part of the rage is comming from.
I would agree as well. Actually, I am fairly certain I already have a life, and I do not need any suggestions on how to lead it, thank you.
I do not think the text is really insulting, though, it is just an angry response, but it does not help any. I think I would listen more to the pro 4e side without this kind of text.
The folks at Paizo have asked us not to make it personal. Is it really that hard to avoid personal attacks while discussing 4E?
I don't know, could you tell me? Since you keep implying that anyone that questions the current policy is incapable of not making personal attacks, which seems to me to be a personal attack.
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The folks at Paizo have asked us not to make it personal. Is it really that hard to avoid personal attacks while discussing 4E?I don't know, could you tell me? Since you keep implying that anyone that questions the current policy is incapable of not making personal attacks, which seems to me to be a personal attack.
Actually I have not made that point until this thread (as best I can remember), and it is a question. I have read a whole lot of posts from people saying that the new rules are restrictive and that they make any discussion of 4E impossible.
So I am asking - why? Is it impossible to discuss the things you (the collective you) do not like about 4E without personal attacks?
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I do not think the text is really insulting, though, it is just an angry response, but it does not help any. I think I would listen more to the pro 4e side without this kind of text.
But it is noteworthy that you count Amber to the pro 4E side though she didn't even hint at this direction.
I think Amber made a general statement including both sides of the discussion. This doesn't necessarily make the statement better ( I some kind of agree though) but your reaction is an example how unhealthy this discussion has already become to our perception. If someone says something we don't agree with and may even find offending we decide right at the moment that said person has to be from the other side. Instead of thinking about if there could be a bit of truth in what has been said.
In fact, I think that it is exactly this behavior from us all which led to Paizo officials moderating the 4E threads. We stopped listening to each other. Which leads to arguing for the arguments sake and as a consequence to bad feelings between the board members as they don't feel listened to by their discussion partners.
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I am a subscriber. the tag is on my wife's screen name.(I like Paizo, but not enoug to pay for two subscriptions.) As far as reviews, I don't bother to read other peoples review, I wouldn't use their advice anyway. As a Charter Subscriber to Pathfinder (And former to Dungeon & Dragon) I don't post feedback on what I buy on my account because it's usually birthday/ Solstic/ aniversary stuff for my wife, So I don't want to advertise a gift. SHe's on these boards too.
My suggestion wasn't for you to read reviews, but to write them. Paizo looks at those reviews to see what products people like and why, and other buyers read them when choosing products.
If you haven't given her *anything* from your charter subscription so far that's going to be a big birthday present once you do!
I do so enjoy the talk about talking about 4E. It's like discussing the stationary a letter was written on instead of the actual letter.
Haha, I was going to say the same thing, but couldn't think of a way to say it that was interesting enough to make typing it worthwhile.
Can someone please just call me a fanboi already so we can carry on? :-)
Just read it again.
3E is portrayed as unique. It is associated with caring, creative, and loyal gamers.
4E is portrayed as different with no mention of any positive attributes.
...
So because he has not described your sentiments (which perhaps he does not understand), this is what you say he is implying:
So, as eloquent as the OP was my conclusion is the same - 4E gamers just don't care. Now you can add to that - 4E gamers are not loyal and may lack creativity.
Please refer to my previous comment as follows, the one you seem to have missed (You seem to miss a lot):
I guess when my wife comes home and says "I work so hard" I can accuse her of implying that it is not hard for me, but that would really strain our relationship.
Finding nothing with which to start a fight, it seems to me you are creating something to quarrel over. Perhaps this might help explain the tone of the discussions you participate in CWM.
This is moot, because GVD has already replied to CWMs accusation:
The subtext is that those staying with 3E care about D&D and those that want to play 4E do not.
So I am asking - why? Is it impossible to discuss the things you (the collective you) do not like about 4E without personal attacks?
As an aside: reading the post immediately above might help you answer that. If you twisted my words like that I would be insulted and might lash out at you with CAPSLOCKED, bestial and vulgar remarks... if I was such a person. (EDIT: If only everybody had the dignity and grace of Andrew, below. So true A.T., so true.)
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Here he basically says flat out says anti-4e people cannot be polite and get their point across. That it gives an advantage to pro-4e people because they don’t have to be angry. This is unfair, give us an exception to the rules.[sic]
I am pro-4e.
I guarantee I could effectively argue the merits of v3.5 over 4e; that I could argue from an anti-4e stance without devolving to derision, derogation, invective and insult. It's called the Lincoln-Douglas Style, and is a proforma debate method employed by attorneys and high school students all across the English-speaking world.
Without translating what any other poster has written, anyone who feels they absolutely must insult or belittle in order to get their point across, has already effectively thrown in the towel. In my observation, if the arguments are presented logically, reasonably and sincerely, they will be remembered; if they are presented in terms of anger, insult, or as 'cheap-shots', they will be forgotten: it will only be remembered that some people were angry, and when others ask what were they angry about, no-one will really be able to say...
And yet some will always take it is as a negative. That was my point. Someone will always take constructive critism as being an attack on them, thus comments of "don't be rude" without saying what it means to be rude are meaningless.
It's true, there are people in this world that are thinned skinned, and there's nothing you can do about it. (I'm not pointing to anyone here, just stating a general fact.)
You can always try to reread your post from someone else's point of view, asking yourself, would I find this offensive if I were on the receiving end?
But really, if your are on the "up-and-up", then the only people you have to worry about are moderators. If you genuinely didn't mean an insult and you think the "receiver" is blowing it out of proportion, you have to trust that the mods won't "censor" you. If they do censor you, you have two choices: plead your case or try a little introspection.
Now if you don't trust the mods, well, that's another story. I think that if I didn't trust the mods to deal with my postings fairly, I doubt I would post to that board. Note: I'm not telling you to leave the Paizo boards, how you handle a lack of trust is your choice - this is just what I would do.
But in the end you can only control yourself.
Greg
I berate all stupid posts.
I thought you were a lawyer, not judge, jury and executioner?
But Wii, the system with the most sales, has backwards compatibility.... coincidence?
Yes, actually. The Wii is wildly successful because it has a much broader target demographic than the other two consoles, and aggressively pursues that demographic with controls, games, and advertising directed specifically at them. The Wii's backwards compatibility is to the Gamecube, a system which was by all accounts somewhere between unsuccessful and a flop.