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Well, given the kinks that I can already forsee in 4E, I'll bet money that 4.5 will be out to fix the holes in between 2&3 yrs, and 5.0 in about another 2 or 3 yrs after that. My guess is it will happen around the point when everyone who is going to by the core books has bought them.
How would I feel? I'm going to laugh my ass off. Cause it won't be me wasting my money on this pointless endevor.
Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if 5e was a re-invention of the rules like 4e is. 4e set out to fix some things in 3/3.5 . . . but it appears to be a re-invention of D&D rather than a revision. I suspect the same for 5e.
What if 5th Edition was announced or started working on 5 years from now? How would you feel about D&D and WotC then?
I would be retrospectively happy and would feel reinforced in my decision of 2008: "You see?! it was a good thing that we stuck to 3rd Edition. They're doing it again!"
What if 5th Edition was announced or started working on 5 years from now? How would you feel about D&D and WotC then?
Same as now. Curiously ambivalent...
Greg
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As long as possible before money dries up. Which wasn't happening with WotC.Do you have access to WotC's books? Are you sure that the cashflow from 3.5 was healthy enough to sustain the RPG arm of WotC? You do understand that, in business, when the money actually dries up then your in trouble.
Actually, when the money dries up, you're out of business. Now, to my knowledge, there has never been a game mechanics rule set to go 10-15 years without revisions. I think GURPS came awfully close, but it did have Companion books issued along the way that revised rules and such.
I have no doubt at all that the people at WOTC absolutely love the game.
I also believe that had HASBRO not bought WOTC, then we likely would not have had D&D at all anymore. They infused wealth into the hobby that was sorely needed for the industry to continue.
I also cannot imagine what kind of supplements could support 10-15 years of one edition without themselves becoming old, stale and boring.
RPGs, just like the hobby itself, is a living entity. It grows and changes. Just like everything. Sometimes change is for the better, sometimes not.
I am looking forward to 4e, hoping it will fix the many flaws of 3.x, but also cautiously concerned because much of the pre-release information makes it look more like a tabletop wargame than a RPG. I was hoping for a more streamlined, simpler game. I will know for sure when I have the PHB in my hands.
Five? I say four. It's 4e after all. :D
Maybe it's even six years: 4eRevised in 2011 and 5 in 2014. But I doubt that it will be longer than that.
So I can't tell you how i'd feel, but I can tell you how I won't feel if it was announced (or even released) in 5 years: suprised.
Things seem to speed up. Edition Inflation or something. I guess by 8e or so, they'll have to stick to electronic versions because the printers can't keep up with the changes. By 20e (released half a year after 8e), your edition will be outdated by the time you have downloaded the stuff.
And after the game goes from 124e to 2587e in a single day, they'll have to shut down D&D for good, sit down, redo from start, and call it something else. E&E (Enemies and Encounters) or something, so things will return to normal.
It will be a horrible time when people cannot trust their FLGSs, shelves and gaming tables any more. They'll sit around a computer terminal, hastily downloading their latest editions and running a quick encounter before the next edition comes in. You'll have to be quick to get the XP to advance to the highest level possible in the current game to even have a chance against the lowest-level critters in the next.
Dice will be obsolete pretty quickly, because they can only put so many sides onto one of those. Instead you'll have random number generators for dice, where you have to put in the number of dice by hand (because it's not worth wasting code for because it changes so quick. And even that will change, as pretty quickly, you won't give in how many sides the dice are supposed to have, but how many -plex! (I.e if you put in a 25, the die will have 25plex sides. 25 plex means a 1 with 25 zeros behind it)
QFTQFT...Quicktime Frame Transition?
Quit Fragging Trolling?
Quantum Field Theory?Quantum Fourier Transform?
Quantitative Feedback Theory?
Queen's Film Theatre?
Quirky Fahrenheit Thermometer?
QFTQFT...Quicktime Frame Transition?
I had once thought it was "Quite F***ing True!" but really it's "Quoted For Truth".
Greg
I guess, really, what it comes down to is this... except for my duties as a writer (thus requiring to purchase core books... which I will wait a few months and get used), I can pretty much skip this edition since I don't think I will like it.... and wait for a better one while in the meantime stocking up on all the extra books from 3.5 I intended to get but could not at the time.
I'll just wait for 5e, 6e, or 7th... as everyone says. I miss being 10 or so... back in, eh... (trying to calculate this... almost 35 now...) 1983.... I think. Maybe it was 84 when I first got into D&D...nah, it was 83. D&D was D&D... period.
My favorite thus far is 3.5 and to me that is D&D... and if I can scrape up enough copies of the core books it may be D&D for me for several, several years.
You know, the funny thing is that with this new edition, WotC might find that suddenly their greatest major competitor in the industry is in the form of used copies of their own previous product...
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Surprised that it took them so long. I'd say they will be working on 5th edition by the end of the year, if they don't decide to do a 4.5.
I think they will probably introduce interim revisions and then distro as errata and a 4e Unearthed Arcana.
I'm thinking they won't release a v4.5, simply because the 4e version (as much as I've seen) is so different from v3.5.
I also believe that had HASBRO not bought WOTC, then we likely would not have had D&D at all anymore. They infused wealth into the hobby that was sorely needed for the industry to continue.
I would think that Hasbro bought WoTC because they were making money hand over fist; they were a demonstrated moneymaker with a track record in a toy field that Hasbro didn't have a toe in. I doubt they were in any financial trouble at all, other than they were having to contract down to a more reasonable size after Pokemon cooled off. I would have my doubts that Hasbro would buy a failing company.
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As long as possible before money dries up. Which wasn't happening with WotC.Do you have access to WotC's books? Are you sure that the cashflow from 3.5 was healthy enough to sustain the RPG arm of WotC? You do understand that, in business, when the money actually dries up then your in trouble.
You can still have a good and healthy cash flow, but anticipate on incoming troubles and move before the troubles begin, or have a good and healthy cash flow and not meeting the arbitrarily-fixed objective that your parent company set in completely unrealistic ways.
I have seen both happen outside of the gaming industry. Not to say this is what happened here, but these are possible explanations (among others).
I would be happy with that. I like playing new games and if I got the chance to play a new version of D&D every few years that would be fantastic.
Well, if you like throwing away the books every couple of years, that's fine for you.
I'm one of those guys who likes to buy books, not to... rent or lease them. Call me a weirdo, but that's how I am.
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I would be happy with that. I like playing new games and if I got the chance to play a new version of D&D every few years that would be fantastic.
Well, if you like throwing away the books every couple of years, that's fine for you. I'm one of those guys who likes to buy books, not to... rent or lease them. Call me a weirdo, but that's how I am.
KaeYoss, I'm using your post as illustration, so please don't take my proceeding comments as directed against you--
I'm constantly surprised at how vocal everyone is over this.
If you don't want to give up your v3.5 material, then don't.
I don't mean to be smart-ass, but if you are satisified with D&D 3.5, then stick with it--there's no government fiat forcing you to convert your games.
I don't know why anyone would feel the need to be an activist against a new edition--and that's what it's starting to sound like, if you read all these posts collectively (across several threads and websites) and objectively: activism against WotC and the entire concept of D&D 4e.
I don't get it.
I especially don't get the apparent need of certain vocal posters to convince everyone around them that 4e is no good; and WotC is no good.
I especially don't get the vehemence that develops over this whole issue. I look through the posts --it's been a long, boring weekend, with my wife in London visiting family, my compatriots training, and me all alone :-( --I look at the gigantic collection of posts on this topic and there are actually, numerically, a significantly small number of posters who actively despise (my word) 4e and WotC. In fairness, the number of posters who actively approve of 4e and WotC is equally low. The significant factor is the number of posters who are for or against the new edition, but don't throw verbal razors at each other (my words again), and don't participate in rude or defamatory remarks regarding WotC, or any other company. This latter group is the largest number, but also the quietest, or least attention-getting.
As for me, I plan to buy the core rules for 4e, and I'll admit I'm gradually more and more excited to see the new books, but I don't find any desire in myself to encourage others to convert their games. Point-of-fact, my game 18 months from now will not necessarily conform to 4e, not any more than my current game 100% conforms to v3.5.
If WotC announced tomorrow that they decided to nix the whole idea, it really wouldn't make much difference to me. As far as being upset over an all-new set of rules books, supplements and accessories; being upset because the new version effectively makes my current version materially obsolete--I don't scream (my words) when Steve Jobs unveils a newer, sleeker iMac; I don't quit Apple, because the new iPod is faster, smaller and twice the capacity of the one I just bought. Maybe not the best analogy, but it works for me.
My point: if anyone can politely tell me why this topic requires an activist stance, please do.
If 5th edition was announced in 5 years, I would do the same thing that I will be doing for 4th edition in a few months-buy the core set and play some games with it to see if my friends and I like playing it more than we like playing our current game.
KaeYoss, I'm using your post as illustration, so please don't take my proceeding comments as directed against you--
I'm constantly surprised at how vocal everyone is over this.
If you don't want to give up your v3.5 material, then don't.
I don't mean to be smart-ass, but if you are satisified with D&D 3.5, then stick with it--there's no government fiat forcing you to convert your games.
I don't know why anyone would feel the need to be an activist against a new edition--and that's what it's starting to sound like, if you read all these posts collectively (across several threads and websites) and objectively: activism against WotC and the entire concept of D&D 4e.
I don't get it.
100% my feelings, as well. If Monopoly 2e came out tomorrow, it doesn't mean that you could no longer play original monopoly . . . so if you don't want to switch, you don't have to. Why then must you rail against the new edition when some people are excited about it.
I know that some of the anti-4e crowd says that the pro-4e crowd feels like they are forcing it down their throats, but I have never seen that. What I have seen is anti-4e people criticize the new edition and the pro-crowd respond. If you don't like 4e fine, play 3.5, but stop trying to change people's minds.
You can have doubts, you can have worries but there is no legitimate reason that I can see for you to be an activist against 4e.
Well, maybe on reason . . .I think many on these boards hope that if they are vocal enough, Paizo will remain 3.5.
Anyways, I was just responding to tell MR. Turner, we share similar thoughts in this instance.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I am not looking forward to 4E based on all of the details and design choices I've seen so far. Therefore, my thoughts on 5E, regardless of when it comes out, is "it depends." (Always a good answer to most questions, by the way.) If 5E is more similar to 3E, then I'll eagerly look forward to it, but if it's a continuation of the shift I'm perceiving in 4E, then I won't look forward to it anymore than I do with 4E.
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You can still have a good and healthy cash flow, but anticipate on incoming troubles and move before the troubles begin, or have a good and healthy cash flow and not meeting the arbitrarily-fixed objective that your parent company set in completely unrealistic ways.
Cash flow goals are rarely arbitrary. It is possible that a parent company can set them without a realistic view of the subsidiary but in general the financial goals are mutually agreed upon.
I see no evidence that WotC had a healthy enough cash flow for 3.5 to continue. At my FLGS sales of 3.5 had slowed even before 4E was announced. I can't be sure but my guess is that the rest of the industry was experiencing a similar slow down.
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Well, if you like throwing away the books every couple of years, that's fine for you.
RPG books are not like actual tools. I read them for entertainment. I use them to play a game until I no longer want to play it.
When I but a hammer I expect it to last for decades. I expect any chosen form of entertainment to have a much shorter shelf life.
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My question to you folks, and I am curious about the 4e-pros response to this (even they have to draw the line somewhere along WotC's rocky road), is this:
What if 5th Edition was announced or started working on 5 years from now? How would you feel about D&D and WotC then?
I'd probably make a note in my pda or one of my calendars of what to ask for my b-day/holiday gifts in 5 years. Then I'd continue playing in my current DnD 3.5/4.0e campaigns.
To me, I'll buy from a company unless a company does or supports something I find morally repugnant (e.g., supports terrorism, racism, slavery, right-wing fanatics, etc.) WotC is updating its game rules? Okay. Will I be forced to buy it when it comes out? No. Then there's no issue for me.
NO ONE IS FORCING FOLKS TO CHANGE EDITIONS.
NO ONE IS FORCING FOLKS TO CHANGE EDITIONS.
No, but the move is forcing the hand of third party game companies like Paizo, Green Ronin and Mongoose to make a very diffacult choice: Put all of your eggs in one basket, follow us, and hope we're not driving off of a cliff. Or stick with a system, that well not perfect, is tried and will sell, but there's no way to tell if you'll have any customers in a year cause they've all switched to 4E. There wouldn't be this much strife if 3.5 & 4E were compatiable.
No, but the move is forcing the hand of third party game companies like Paizo, Green Ronin and Mongoose to make a very diffacult choice: Put all of your eggs in one basket, follow us, and hope we're not driving off of a cliff. Or stick with a system, that well not perfect, is tried and will sell, but there's no way to tell if you'll have any customers in a year cause they've all switched to 4E. There wouldn't be this much strife if 3.5 & 4E were compatiable.
NO ONE IS FORCING FOLKS TO CHANGE EDITIONS.
I hate to sound mean, but those companies exist partially because of WoTC and the OGL.
In truth, WoTC doesn't have to make decisions based entirely on how it affects 3rd parties because they know enough will spring up/follow 4e that things should be cool.
So again, no one is forcing anyone to change editions . . .and especially not consumers.
My question to you folks, and I am curious about the 4e-pros response to this (even they have to draw the line somewhere along WotC's rocky road), is this:
What if 5th Edition was announced or started working on 5 years from now? How would you feel about D&D and WotC then?
I'd be completely unsurprised.
In fact, I fully expect that WotC will get enough flak with the actual release of 4E (which we haven't seen yet) that there will be a 4.5 hot on its heels in a year or less. They did it for 3.0 - 3.5, and the changes there were minimal by comparison.
5e in five years? Can we make it three? I want to see 4e's "story" changes corrected (that is, reversed) a lot sooner than that.
On the question of edition frequencies:
AD&D editions and the contemporaneous D&D editions were distinct games, not editions of each other. The explicitly introductory game was started with the Holmes boxed set and all games called just "D&D" between its release and the year 2000 were not editions of the main game, but of a separate, related game.
The "main line" game went D&D (1974) -> AD&D (fully released in 1979) -> AD&D 2e (1989) -> D&D 3e (2000) -> D&D 3.5 (2003). Further, there a degree of compatibility between 1e and 2e that was very similar to the degree of compatibility between and 3e and 3.5. That leaves us with five editions over 34 years, with only three discontinuous versions.
4e is accordingly coming between two years (on the average frequency of 7.25 years between editions) and five years (on the average frequency of 13 between major rule discontinuities) early. If, mind, we count the initial version of D&D as a fully-realized game, instead of an experiment. If count from AD&D 1st edition, 4e is fourteen years early for a discontinuous rules set.
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Surprised that it took them so long. I'd say they will be working on 5th edition by the end of the year, if they don't decide to do a 4.5.That's just silly. Do you seriously believe that?
Considering that they started working on 4th edition as soon as they got the first 4 "complete books" for 3.5 out the door, I do believe that. I fully expect them to have started working on the next "edition" whatever they call it by the middle of 2009 at the latest.
I agree with Cory on this one. His date may or may not be off, but it seems sensible that they would start laying the groundwork for a new generation of D&D players once 4E is settled in and making money.
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Quote - "If 5th Edition was announed in 5 years, how would you feel?"
I'd do what most adults do, and what I intend to do with 4th edition.
Take a look.....
Simple as that, if I happen to like what I see then well done Wotc you have managed to keep me as a current customer, if I don't then adios see you next edition no hard feelings.
Or alternatively I can chuck my dummy out my pram and wail a lot ;-)
Here's a thought about the "frequency" of new editions:
Let's say you were a "game designer" for a certain specific RPG company.
Now I'm making a distinction between game designer and content designer. A game designer being someone who specializes in rules, and a content designer being someone that specializes in non-rules supplements (adventures, campaign settings, etc.).
Now, I'm not saying that a game designer will only work on rules, but will also do some content work as well (spread the wealth, as it were). But I suspect that a game designer probably prefers developing the rules side of the game, because he/she finds that most interesting.
Once a new version has hit the shelves, what does a game designer has to look forward to? Sure there are the various splat books that are inevitably going to come out, but there is probably only a certain level of saturation there.
Me, personally, if I were a game designer, I'd be thinking about the next edition the moment the new one left my hands. Why? Because that's where I would find the most challenge at work. Maybe I would on it on my own spare time at work (when most people are surfing or playtesting) but I'd start working on new rules. I may pitch them to my bosses as "alternate rules" for the current edition, but at some point they may start pointing toward a completely new version of the rules - either because there are too many of them piling up (you can only have so many alternate rules for a system) or because the deviation is getting so far from the current edition that it warrants a new version.
So the idea that WotC was working on a new edition early on before 3.5 was even cold on the shelves, doesn't surprise me. It's what I'd be doing if I were in their shoes.
So, am I completely out to lunch here?
Greg
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So, am I completely out to lunch here?
Greg
Depends if you missed breakfast....
Ok so no drumroll.
Seriously though I agree totally, I imagine that a lot of stuff that doesn't get used, or at least initially falls by the wayside gets worked on with the intent to use later. Whether that's for a supplement or new edition who know's but I don't doubt (or I at least suspect) that a lot of 4th edition stuff was conceived during the 3.0/3.5 development and never made the cut.
Probably due to differences in design philosophy at that time. IMHO of course ;-)
Depends if you missed breakfast....So, am I completely out to lunch here?
Greg
Actually, I did miss breakfast today. But then, with two kids that need to get to school, and one to daycare, that's more the norm for me than not...
Ok so no drumroll.
Here you go... :-)
Greg
It's not like they're retooling factories--if 4e tanks, the writers can always go back and write legacy products.
We don't know that yet. The GSL might include a clause that they have to abandon the OGL for good.
Also, it's possible that if 4e tanks, some of the companies who went along with it go out of business, so there won't be any legacy writing there.
Quote - "If 5th Edition was announed in 5 years, how would you feel?"
I'd do what most adults do, and what I intend to do with 4th edition.
Take a look.....
Simple as that, if I happen to like what I see then well done Wotc you have managed to keep me as a current customer, if I don't then adios see you next edition no hard feelings.
Or alternatively I can chuck my dummy out my pram and wail a lot ;-)
Yeah, very adult, insulting people. That's the way a grown-up behaves.
Here's a thought about the "frequency" of new editions:
<snip>
Once a new version has hit the shelves, what does a game designer has to look forward to? Sure there are the various splat books that are inevitably going to come out, but there is probably only a certain level of saturation there.
Me, personally, if I were a game designer, I'd be thinking about the next edition the moment the new one left my hands. Why? Because that's where I would find the most challenge at work. Maybe I would on it on my own spare time at work (when most people are surfing or playtesting) but I'd start working on new rules. I may pitch them to my bosses as "alternate rules" for the current edition, but at some point they may start pointing toward a completely new version of the rules - either because there are too many of them piling up (you can only have so many alternate rules for a system) or because the deviation is getting so far from the current edition that it warrants a new version.
So the idea that WotC was working on a new edition early on before 3.5 was even cold on the shelves, doesn't surprise me. It's what I'd be doing if I were in their shoes.
Good point. If a designer is a rules junky, then rules will be what he makes. After it reaches a 'critical mass' it will go 'new edition'.
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It's not like they're retooling factories--if 4e tanks, the writers can always go back and write legacy products.We don't know that yet. The GSL might include a clause that they have to abandon the OGL for good.
Also, it's possible that if 4e tanks, some of the companies who went along with it go out of business, so there won't be any legacy writing there.
That is purely speculative. There is no indication that will happen. It's like the constant warnings that the terrorists might attack at any moment. It's a worst case scenario with no substantial evidence to back it up.
I agree that if the GSL does include language like that then very few 3rd party publishers will go along with it but again - its just speculation with a twist of scare mongering.
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Yeah, very adult, insulting people. That's the way a grown-up behaves.
My comment wasn't aimed at insulting anyone and even came with a smiley to emphasise that point (I was trying to be humorous), but rather was admittedly a little dig at how overly passionate people are getting about a game.
At what point are we too invested if it upsets everyone this much that a new edition is coming out. Like I said I intend to have a look and if I don't like it stay with 3.5. I am far from rabidly pro 4th edition, however I freely admit to being moderately optimistic and having a little faith that the designers will come up with something worthwhile even if it's not for me and mine.
Now if anyone feels that I personally targeted them with my comment and is mortally wounded by it I'm more than happy for the mods to remove it and the post, but you may want to ask yourself if your being a little thin skinned and sensitive.
Like I said meant to be funny, sorry you didn't think so.
Later days
Or alternatively I can chuck my dummy out my pram and wail a lot ;-)Just to divert for a second - What in the name of all that's holy/unholy is a "pram"?
British term for baby carriage. Short for perambulator, I think.