Or by moderation, do you mean moderation that supports your point of view or meets your definition of "nice"?
Moderation that doesn't allow ad hominem attacks.
Just that would remove 90% of my problems, if not all of them.
Can anyone see this thread going the way of that other thread last year (for the life of me I can't find it or remember the OP), where we all discussed the OP's post in a semi-civilised manner quite eloquently, then after about 3 pages it just degenerated into 16 pages of the best drivel I have ever seen and participated in EVER!
Man that thread was good while it lasted
No, but it sounds fun. I'm all for it. ;) (Sorry OP)
To the OP.
As far as being a board where freedom of opinion can be expressed, than yes I think that Paizo is proud of the path they've chosen, even if it isn't easy.
Always remember the 1st amendment isn't to protect the freedom of speech that the people in power agree with, but to allow everyone to express their opinions.
The majority of us are tired of the whole debate, but to shut down that debate would be a gross violiation of one of our freedoms.
In other words, Paizo feels it is more important that everyone gets their say, even if Paizo themselves doesn't agree with it, rather than only allowing posts that mesh with their beliefs.
This is my opinion only, but thankfully Paizo lets me express it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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No, but it sounds fun. I'm all for it. ;) (Sorry OP)Can anyone see this thread going the way of that other thread last year (for the life of me I can't find it or remember the OP), where we all discussed the OP's post in a semi-civilised manner quite eloquently, then after about 3 pages it just degenerated into 16 pages of the best drivel I have ever seen and participated in EVER!
Man that thread was good while it lasted
It pretty much degenerated because (like this one) we were all just saying the same thing, just with different words and experiences. After a while we started quipping with each other (ala Myself & Aber) and everyone just started joining in (even the Paizo Staff).
It truly was a work of art... I wish I could find it and place a linky! (Or do they archive Threads after a certain timefame?)
So let me get this straight. Either the OP is saying:
"You guys say nice things about 4e or I'm going to hurt your company, and through them your messageboards."
Or the OP is saying:
"I am posting a bribe to Paizo , via my patronage, to call for them to police up their message boards and make people stop saying what I don't want to hear."Is that close ? Because it's what I read in post#1 of this thread.
There are dozens of possible explanations for what the OP posted, including, given that there has been no further post from the OP (as far as we know; after all the Paizo boards sometimes move in smurferious ways) that it could have been a long, eloquently phrased, and entirely sincere version of the song from 'The Sound of Music' which starts 'So long, farewell....'.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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There are dozens of possible explanations for what the OP posted, including, given that there has been no further post from the OP (as far as we know; after all the Paizo boards sometimes move in smurferious ways) that it could have been a long, eloquently phrased, and entirely sincere version of the song from 'The Sound of Music' which starts 'So long, farewell....'.
Ladies and Gentlemen. The Von Trapp Family Singers!
(See DMcCoy1693 it's easy if you try) ;)
EDIT: Hey that's cool, you even turn Smurfy if someone writes Smurf in the Quote/Un-Quote. Smurftacular!
It pretty much degenerated because (like this one) we were all just saying the same thing, just with different words and experiences.
Different experiences with just words. Were we the thing saying all just same. Much degenerated because it pretty. (This one like)
Let me let you in on a little secret as to why so many people are pissed off about 4E. Take a pile of money, say about $8000. Now let someone arbitrarily decide that that money is now worthless because now the curency of the land is monopoly money, and you're SOL. You would be angry. That's how much my wife an I have spent in books.
Now lets pretend that you have a favorite Author. An Author that has been writing books for say...30yrs. Michael Moorcock maybe, Maybe someone else. Now say that the rights to that book and all of it's characters are given to someone else who has decided that they don't like the world, the people in it and the main characters and they are going to destroy it all, makr it look like something totally different and then call it my the same name? Would you be angry then?
Then lets say you go to a public forum with people who are also angry about major change, and it gives you a place to vent because the company that owns the rights has made it clear they don't care about you oppinion, so you vent with like minded people.
But then you are constantly told by others on that same board that you are simply overreacting. Change is good (Even though you have seen some of the changes and find them somewhere between weak and stupid) and that you should get over yourself, pull out another $8000 in monopoly money and give it to this new version of the book you love, even though it's lost what you loved it for.
Then you have to listen to people who come to the boards that don't understand the anger, and tell you blindly that we should all 'just get along' and because you are so angry, they aren't going to buy products from the place that has allowed you to vent these thoughts because they aren't willing to censer your thoughts because it's 'so negative'.
Would your thoughts be along the line: Don't let the door hit you.?
This is why these boards are so full of venom. And let me tell you a little secret. Attacking us for having these opinions makes it worse not better.
There are dozens of possible explanations for what the OP posted, including, given that there has been no further post from the OP (as far as we know; after all the Paizo boards sometimes move in smurferious ways) that it could have been a long, eloquently phrased, and entirely sincere version of the song from 'The Sound of Music' which starts 'So long, farewell....'.
Ladies and Gentlemen. The Von Trapp Family Singers!
(See Smurf1693 it's easy if you try) ;)
EDIT: Hey that's cool, you even turn Smurfy if someone writes Smurf in the Quote/Un-Quote. Smurftacular!
Gotta test that out.
EDIT: SMURFERIFIC!!!!
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....given that there has been no further post from the OP .....
Hey! He's right! That was the one and only post by the poster! What if he really was a shill for WotC? What if he created that thread, knowing that many people would respond, thus maintaining said thread's position at the top of the heap, giving it a great deal of exposure to whoever comes here and inadvertently leading them to the conclusion that this is a bad place? What if this is all part of some master plan?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
Soooo tired... I have been posting on this thread now for 2hrs and 20 minutes! It's 2am here and I have a 2hr drive to Sydney in the morning. Let's make a date to come back tomorrow and continue this discourse some more Aber.
Let me let you in on a little secret as to why so many people are pissed off about 4E. Take a pile of money, say about $8000. Now let someone arbitrarily decide that that money is now worthless because now the curency of the land is monopoly money, and you're SOL. You would be angry. That's how much my wife an I have spent in books.
I dont agree with this analogy. No one is forcing us to change editions. We can keep using those 3rd edition books for years to come (and we will).
Now lets pretend that you have a favorite Author. An Author that has been writing books for say...30yrs. Michael Moorcock maybe, Maybe someone else. Now say that the rights to that book and all of it's characters are given to someone else who has decided that they don't like the world, the people in it and the main characters and they are going to destroy it all, make it look like something totally different and then call it my the same name? Would you be angry then?
Bingo! This is the analogy I 100% agree with. If the Pathfinder Campaign Setting changes from 3.5 to 4th it will feel just like this to me (same with Eberron and Forgotten Realms).
okay I want to be on the smurfing bandwagon
Smurf.
Ohhh That's so Smurfy!!!
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So....is the OP going to buy 4e even though the Wizard's boards are a pretty gnarly place at times? Or am I unfairly disparaging the WOTC boards?
Cute.
And, somewhat ironically, I avoided the 4E sections at WotC for quite some time, because it was positively *venomous* over there.
And yet, the venom of those posters did not affect my opinion of the people at WotC, or my willingness to buy WotC product, one bit. I don't blame Mike Mearls (to pick a name out of a hat) for the postings of every single fan of the game he's working on. I'm still looking to get a few 3.X books, and have no worries at all that my cash money will go to support WotC people, despite the occasional troll on their message boards.
Still, if the OP wants to blame Paizo for the blather of the various name-callers, that's his right. As Heathensson notes, it will be interesting to see if all the name-calling coming from the 4E proponents (on these boards and others) will lead to him boycotting WotC as well.
If i would buy Rise of the Runelords and i want to convert it to 4e. Maybe i will have a question about that. I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?Has anybody actually, on these boards, told you to go away?
Not yet. If you check the Recent Posts, you will notice no question asked. And on top of that, you will find this little gem that is representative of the pro-4th Edition thinly veiled insults towards the 3.5 stalwarts. Although, I will grant it is very likely unintentional - much like most of the indirect insults (on all sides) are.
On another side note, I do like how all of CNBs examples are from the "Anti-4th Edition" trollers, and none of the "Pro-4th Edition" trollers.
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Let me let you in on a little secret as to why so many people are pissed off about 4E. Take a pile of money, say about $8000. Now let someone arbitrarily decide that that money is now worthless because now the curency of the land is monopoly money, and you're SOL. You would be angry. That's how much my wife an I have spent in books.
Now lets pretend that you have a favorite Author. An Author that has been writing books for say...30yrs. Michael Moorcock maybe, Maybe someone else. Now say that the rights to that book and all of it's characters are given to someone else who has decided that they don't like the world, the people in it and the main characters and they are going to destroy it all, makr it look like something totally different and then call it my the same name? Would you be angry then?
Then lets say you go to a public forum with people who are also angry about major change, and it gives you a place to vent because the company that owns the rights has made it clear they don't care about you oppinion, so you vent with like minded people.
But then you are constantly told by others on that same board that you are simply overreacting. Change is good (Even though you have seen some of the changes and find them somewhere between weak and stupid) and that you should get over yourself, pull out another $8000 in monopoly money and give it to this new version of the book you love, even though it's lost what you loved it for.
Then you have to listen to people who come to the boards that don't understand the anger, and tell you blindly that we should all 'just get along' and because you are so angry, they aren't going to buy products from the place that has allowed you to vent these thoughts because they aren't willing to censer your thoughts because it's 'so negative'.
Would your thoughts be along the line: Don't let the door hit you.?
This is why these boards are so full of venom. And let me tell you a little secret. Attacking us for having these opinions makes it worse not...
QFT blackdragon, QFT.
Funny how the orginal author doesnt seem to upset of the opposite neagtivity that gets thrown around from people who like 4e.....
Remember to keep your emotions in check when Paizo decides which edition to support. I am afraid THAT will actually be the low point of the angst on these boards. Whichever way they go (or go indi) the message boards will be crazy because you cannot please everyone.
Wise words. This is a situation when it is best to be a pessimist. Quietly resign yourself to the thought of Paizo picking the worst possible choice for you - and get used to the fact.
That way, if Paizo chooses that path, you are already accepting of it even if you don't agree with it.
I know I have...
Quietly resign yourself to the thought of Paizo picking the worst possible choice for you - and get used to the fact.
IMO, the worst possible choice is to fold. I'd rather see Paizo write for 4E and GURPS before I'd want them to close their doors.
Remember to keep your emotions in check when Paizo decides which edition to support. I am afraid THAT will actually be the low point of the angst on these boards. Whichever way they go (or go indi) the message boards will be crazy because you cannot please everyone.
Very true. The supporters will be nothing more than Paizo Fanboys while the decriers will be branded as heretics.
Of course, if Paizo printed every adventure with 3.5, 3.75, and 4E stats, it'd be all good, wouldn't it? Yeah, every issue of Pathfinder would cost 50 bucks and people'd complain about "all the useless content that I can't use", but I digress...
Wise words. This is a situation when it is best to be a pessimist. Quietly resign yourself to the thought of Paizo picking the worst possible choice for you - and get used to the fact.
That way, if Paizo chooses that path, you are already accepting of it even if you don't agree with it.
I know I have...
Woooo! High-five my pessimistic spirit-brother! Plan for the worst! That way you're either prepared or pleasantly surprised.
I just want to pipe in and applaud Paizo for letting people speak their minds.
Will Paizo lose customers over it? They might. I can't tell you. I'm not one of them
Would Paizo lose customers if they banned people for speaking against 4e? Most definetly. Wizards has lost customers for doing that (i.e. me), and for Paizo it would not be different.
In fact, I can help but think that by scaring Paizo with the talk of "losing money", they want to get Paizo to go along with other boards where you're not allowed to speak ill of 4e.
To the original poster: I assume that you wrote something similar on enworld and gleemax about how they censor anything pro 3e and con 4e, no matter how constructive, and how these boards - especially the gleemax boards, got themselves a bad reputation because no moderator steps in when the rabid 4e-fanboys start flamewars and insult those who say that they like 3e.
As a fan of 4e and wotc, you must be concerned for their success, and I know from personal experience that their behaviour has cost them money.
I just want to pipe in and applaud Paizo for letting people speak their minds.
Indeed.
I just want to pipe in and applaud Paizo for letting people speak their minds.
I'd like to give the Paizo crew one big Smurfy Thumbs Up.
The world is made up of positivity and negativity. That's just the way it is. All message boards tend to reflect more negativity than positivity because happy people tend not to sit around making post after post on a subject.
There is nothing "wrong" with liking/looking forward to 4e, and there is nothing wrong with the opposite opinion. This is not a moral issue. It is a preferential one.
Negative posting is not a bad thing when one is feeling negative about the topic. Abusiveness is a different story, and shouldn't be tolerated. But being disagreed with...even strongly, if civilly...does not constitute being abused.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled Snuh Cascade. :-)
Eberron campaign setting, which is my favorite setting
Go away, Eberron-jerk. You freaks disgust me!
;-P
(sorry, sorry, couldn't resist. Didn't even crack any jokes about robots - oops!)
As you're almost certainly well aware, there are some people on both the Enworld and WotC forums who are strongly anti 4E. Oddly, they seem to be able to continue posting despite this. Perhaps it's because they manage to do so in a civilised manner, without resorting to personal insults, ad hominem attacks, and repeatedly spamming threads. When even Paizo staffers are avoiding a section of their own boards because of the tone there, I'd have to say I think they should probably do something about it rather than avoiding the issue.
Am I allowed to point and laugh, or would that be inflamatory?
I just finished reading over some of those "civilized" posters in the Can shillelagh be used on a greatclub thread and let me tell you that if the same question were asked here, the tone of the responses would be markedly different.
@GentleGiant
I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?
Has anyone really replied to any of your questions here in these boards with that answer?
The closest I have ever heard to that is when someone is slamming the other's preferred game. And even then, its usually a hell of alot nicer then this. Even from Razz.
As you're almost certainly well aware, there are some people on both the Enworld and WotC forums who are strongly anti 4E. Oddly, they seem to be able to continue posting despite this.
1) This sounds like you're comparing the best of ENWorld/WotC to the worst of Paizo. And also painting the whole of the board here by the actions of a few posters. At best, you're being unfair. At worst, you're prejuding us.
2) Give us links to examples. Don't make broad generalities without direct proof to back up your statements, please.
3) Have you tried to get to know us? Why not start a thread and actually see us discuss stuff here? Discuss it with us and see what happens.
Am I allowed to point and laugh, or would that be inflamatory?You're perfectly allowed to point and laugh. If you do so at everyone else who indulges in the practice I won't even accuse you of hypocrisy.
I apologize actually. I'm dealing with off-board drama and I'm a touch snippy. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm a hypocrite, but looking at the thread that I referenced, the difference between there and here is night and day worthy IMHO.
No today i was only called fascist on page one of this thread. ;-)
I see that here a lot of nice people but there are a minority of idiots that make this subboatd suck. They are on both camps. This thread is not about pro or anit 4e ist about the behavior on boths sides.
I reserve the right to be an idiot. I'm good at it.
;-)
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@Mothman
I see your point but i don't seperate der board and the company.
I will go and pick up 4e so i'm looking for a setting. So i found pathfinder and Golarion. At that point i went to the 4e-subboards and read through the threads. At that point i learned, that i'm not welcome here. So Pazio runs this boards it is theirs. Here is the support for Pathfinder and if i'm not welcome here why should i buy the books?Maybe this will change with the release of 4e. But this is not important for me now. Maybe i will buy secound darkness or the fourth adventure path or i will stay with Forgotten Realms.
This is not about opions or criticism. That is ok and a good and important thing. But this whole subborad ist about a very aggressiv animosity against everything that has something to do with 4e.
If you are looking for Pathfinder information, you have mistakenly entered the wrong part of the board. There is a great deal of Pathfinder information and discussion in the Pathfinder threads where I would wager that very little 4e issues arise. If you are looking to discuss 4e, then you have come to the right place after all. The two are not related (Pathfinder and 4e), especially since for the foreseeable future (which isn't long mind you) Pathfinder is not a 4e product.
Again, no one is advocating censorship or banning anyone because of their opinion.
What I *am* advocating is ad hominem attacks be called out and shut down.
Really, the two aren't even close. There is no "freedom of speech" issue here. Everyone should be allowed to freely express their opinions. They shouldn't be allowed to be a!%@%&#s.
Is there a complication here I'm missing?
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What I *am* advocating is ad hominem attacks be called out and shut down.
Seriously, are you guys cursing at us in Latin?
No matter what, the real loser of this little war is Paizo, as the zealots on each side are going to feel slighted no matter what Paizo's final decision is, with those who feel slighted dropping their subscriptions in protest.
I wouldn't say protest.
What use is a product that's written for a game you don't play? In the case of adventure modules, no that much.
I know that's the case for me.
So if they make the "wrong" decision, my subscription(s) will have to be cancelled, sure. But not in protest, but out of necessity. No hard feelings. Paizo has been far to well to us for hard feelings.
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Again, no one is advocating censorship or banning anyone because of their opinion.
What I *am* advocating is ad hominem attacks be called out and shut down.
Really, the two aren't even close. There is no "freedom of speech" issue here. Everyone should be allowed to freely express their opinions. They shouldn't be allowed to be a!!%#%%s.
Is there a complication here I'm missing?
What, in your opinion is an ad hominem attack? I would think it is fairly narrow - a direct attack on the person rather than the person's words or point of view.
Direct rebuttals, countering a strong opinion with another strong opinion, and posts that make the reader "uncomfortable in their frankness" are not ad hominen attacks at least as far as I understand the definition. Furthermore, if a poster chooses to rely upon their person, professional experience, or reveals the methods of their thoughts as justification for their point of view in a debate, then these are also subject to discussion and even rebuttal since the OP has clearly decided to make personal issues public.
Of course, there are certainly some that feel that any post that one finds personally offensive or elicits strong emotion in the reader is an ad hominem attack. Since you are advocating for this form of moderation, please tell us what you would find acceptable and what would not be acceptable.
Is there a complication here I'm missing?
No one here is advocating ad hominem attacks. Expressing disdain for 4E and WOTC does not equal ad hominem attacks.
Patient : Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Stop doing that.
Reminds me of that joke:
"Doctor, I get those backaches whenever I stick my right arm out diagonally up and out behind me, then do the same with my left arm, and then wheel them both forward."
"Then don't do it."
"How am I supposed to get into my cloak?"