EDIT:: It seems the boards are acting strange again. This thread is supposed to have 9 posts, and I can only see five.
Yeah that seems to happen a lot. I never understand why. I also prefer that is what's happening when I make one of my many witty remarks and no one even acknowledges it, let alone laughs. Then again, I'm funny that way.
I saw a whole bunch of (3.) I go where Paizo goes.
That is correct, there are a few of those too. I fall into that catagory.
But, it's easy for me. I have very little money in 3.5 core books. All the money is in Pathfinder books or edition neutral products. I readily concede it could be harder for others.
But yeah.. I looked at Silenttimo's breakdown, which was done before I posted, and there is a catagory of "I go where Paizo goes".
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The majority I see are people who are saying that they will SADLY leave and stop purchasing if Paizo converts.
And you fail to mention the people who say they will be converting to 4th edition and if Paizo does not they will cease buying Paizo products. Why arent you accusing them of saying that Paizo is dog doodie?
Sorry..but this thread is kind of trollish.
As much as I hate putting words in a lawyer's mouth (both because it's always full, and the shark teeth) I don't think Sebastian is talking about the 4,x diehards in this thread, he's talking about the 3.x folks (like me) so I can see him not mentioning the "Convert to 4.e or I'll stop buying your novels, burn down your warehouse and break your Boba Fett figure!" cadre.
I'll admit, the pathfinder chronicals bonus makes my decision to continue Paizo products more complex, but I'm not going to 4.x unless my 3.x books explode. Heck I'm getting rid of my WoD2 books because a) they're beginning to look a lot like my WoD1 books and b)I don't find them nearly as enjoyable to read. I've not played WoDx in years, but I enjoy reading their splat books. The same may be enough for me to keep getting Pathfinder.
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Still trying to be fair, I have seen that since i posted my % breakdown, there have been slightly more "I go 4E" than "I stick to 3.5" (to my deception).
I would say the breakdown would be around 35-37% for "I go 4E" and 35-37% for "I stick to 3.5".
A real problem for Paizo...
Maybe. I believe that of the % saying that they will stick with 3.5 a majority of them will be playing 4E by this time next year.
Hmm...I'm usually among the first to jump on Sebastian's case for being...unpleasant.
But I definitely saw a couple of amusing over-the-top "I'll never buy anything from Paizo again, and I'll spit on their graves and make sure my descendants never buy anything from them again and I know 2000 people who will do exactly what I do" type posts in there. Posts that went beyond merely answering Erik's question and meandered into "whining, but with an agenda" territory.
But then again, I'm constantly baffled by how personally some people seem to be taking the whole thing...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As much as I hate putting words in a lawyer's mouth (both because it's always full, and the shark teeth) I don't think Sebastian is talking about the 4,x diehards in this thread, he's talking about the 3.x folks (like me) so I can see him not mentioning the "Convert to 4.e or I'll stop buying your novels, burn down your warehouse and break your Boba Fett figure!" cadre.
If you can point me to a person saying that, I'll include them in category 1. I did see a few posters say they would no longer buy anything at all from Paizo if they converted. I think I'm the only person that said I'd quit my subscriptions if Paizo didn't switch. Most other pro-4e posters said they'd continue to purchase Paizo products even if they did not convert.
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Maybe. I believe that of the % saying that they will stick with 3.5 a majority of them will be playing 4E by this time next year.Still trying to be fair, (...) I would say the breakdown would be around 35-37% for "I go 4E" and 35-37% for "I stick to 3.5".
A real problem for Paizo...
Mmm, I am not that sure.
I have about 10 times more material 3.0 / 3.5 than I had 2nd Ed when WOTC switched to 3.0.
I would like to be able to use some of this material.
As a DM, I do intend to play 3.5 for the next 10 years at least (lots of material and adventures, more than I can DM...).
As a player... well, I would like to stick to 3.5.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If you can point me to a person saying that, I'll include them in category 1. I did see a few posters say they would no longer buy anything at all from Paizo if they converted. I think I'm the only person that said I'd quit my subscriptions if Paizo didn't switch. Most other pro-4e posters said they'd continue to purchase Paizo products even if they did not convert.
As much as I hate putting words in a lawyer's mouth (both because it's always full, and the shark teeth) I don't think Sebastian is talking about the 4,x diehards in this thread, he's talking about the 3.x folks (like me) so I can see him not mentioning the "Convert to 4.e or I'll stop buying your novels, burn down your warehouse and break your Boba Fett figure!" cadre.
Honestly? I finished with the thread after I posted my answers, so I don't know if there are any. I was responding with Hyperbole. :-)
There's a small problem with the numbers, though. They don't account for subscribers vs. non-subscribers. My guess is there will be more weight for people who are subscribers than not. One might buy something at a store every month, but paizo is getting all the money from the subscribers, not just a cut, and that does mean a lot to the bottom line. I haven't read all the responses... are there any that are "If Paizo goes 4e, I will start subscribing"?
Well, I'm not a subscriber, but I've bought every issue of Pathfinder at full price, and plan to continue doing so. I like to support my FLGS, and I live in an apartment, so I really don't want my books crammed into my tiny mailbox or left on the doorstep exposed to the elements and thieves.
Being a non-subscriber doesn't necessarily mean "less valuable customer."
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Maybe. I believe that of the % saying that they will stick with 3.5 a majority of them will be playing 4E by this time next year.Still trying to be fair, (...) I would say the breakdown would be around 35-37% for "I go 4E" and 35-37% for "I stick to 3.5".
A real problem for Paizo...
Mmm, I am not that sure.
I have about 10 times more material 3.0 / 3.5 than I had 2nd Ed when WOTC switched to 3.0.
I would like to be able to use some of this material.
As a DM, I do intend to play 3.5 for the next 10 years at least (lots of material and adventures, more than I can DM...).
As a player... well, I would like to stick to 3.5.
I can sympathize with your position. Here's the thing - as the 3.5 player pool dries up and new material keeps coming out for 4E then more and more people will go with 4E.
As for unused material - dude - my basement is a shrine to all the mods and games i never got to play.
If you can point me to a person saying that, I'll include them in category 1. I did see a few posters say they would no longer buy anything at all from Paizo if they converted. I think I'm the only person that said I'd quit my subscriptions if Paizo didn't switch. Most other pro-4e posters said they'd continue to purchase Paizo products even if they did not convert.
As much as I hate putting words in a lawyer's mouth (both because it's always full, and the shark teeth) I don't think Sebastian is talking about the 4,x diehards in this thread, he's talking about the 3.x folks (like me) so I can see him not mentioning the "Convert to 4.e or I'll stop buying your novels, burn down your warehouse and break your Boba Fett figure!" cadre.
No, I said I'd dump my Pathfinder subscription if Paizo doesn't convert. Which I suppose puts me in the same boat as you.
Move over.
Edit: woo hoo! 100th post. I'm such a newb.
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Maybe. I believe that of the % saying that they will stick with 3.5 a majority of them will be playing 4E by this time next year.Still trying to be fair, I have seen that since i posted my % breakdown, there have been slightly more "I go 4E" than "I stick to 3.5" (to my deception).
I would say the breakdown would be around 35-37% for "I go 4E" and 35-37% for "I stick to 3.5".
A real problem for Paizo...
I'm willing to put money on it that I will NEVER buy a 4th edition-specific product.
"You gotta have faith for that to work against me, Mr. Vincent."
What about the other type of response?
1. I plan to smurf.
2. If Paizo smurfs, then I will smurf all of Paizo's products.
3. If they do not smurf, then I will probably smurf all of Paizo's products.
I just can't see myself smurfing smurf edition.
"You gotta have faith for that to work against me, Mr. Vincent."
Good Fright Night reference. I'm amused by the prognostications of those who make such predictions. I know of a sizeable number of people who still play AD&D. Guess they didn't get the "You'll switch to 3 the end of 2001" memo. I really doubt I'll move to 4E. So many possibilities left to explore in 3.5.
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Good Fright Night reference. I'm amused by the prognostications of those who make such predictions. I know of a sizeable number of people who still play AD&D. Guess they didn't get the "You'll switch to 3 the end of 2001" memo. I really doubt I'll move to 4E. So many possibilities left to explore in 3.5.
"You gotta have faith for that to work against me, Mr. Vincent."
Um, I did say majority.
People still play 0E, 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, etc.
My guess is that the lower XE becomes the fewer and fewer the number of dedicated hold-overs.
Good Fright Night reference. I'm amused by the prognostications of those who make such predictions. I know of a sizeable number of people who still play AD&D. Guess they didn't get the "You'll switch to 3 the end of 2001" memo. I really doubt I'll move to 4E. So many possibilities left to explore in 3.5.
"You gotta have faith for that to work against me, Mr. Vincent."
"sizeable" in this case meaning "much smaller than those who no longer play AD&D." EVERYONE won't switch...just most.
Speaking of noticing things, anyone keeping some sort of tally
I just did a count of the first 1-1/2 pages. Here's what I used:
Question 1: Will you buy Paizo products if they are 4E?Question 2: Will you buy Paizo products if they are 3.5?
Scoring: Indicating you will definitely buy Paizo products (regardless of how you answered the other question) got you 1 point for that question. For every subscription you had listed next to your handle (excluding planet stories), that gained your score of 1 a bonus point. This was to represent the value of a higher probablity of future sales. So the maximum score someone could generate was a 4 (1 for saying you will by product in said edition, 1 for being a pathfinder subscriber, 1 for a PC subscription, 1 for a GMM subscription). Saying maybe (i.e. depends on ease of converting between one edition and another) earned you a score of half of the score you would have gotten for giving a definite answer.
And lastly, when needed, I used my best judgement based upon intent.
Results:
Question 1: Will you buy Paizo products if they are 4E? 82
Question 2: Will you buy Paizo products if they are 3.5? 125
On a personal note: I wish this was one was more one-sided, just for Paizo's sake. Either edition. I feel bad for them.
I will emphasize that I only did the first page and a half since I am at work and have to get back to work. I will also say that this may not be the formula that Paizo maybe using.
Yes, I am an engineer. And I am good at my job.
"sizeable" in this case meaning "much smaller than those who no longer play AD&D." EVERYONE won't switch...just most.
If the current player base splits 60/40 or even 70/30 4E vs 3.5 4E clearly has the majority, but I'd hardly consider it a crushing mandate. WOTC will need to recruit a lot of folk to recoup those who don't move.
I'm a bit puzzled, do you think there will be more people playing AD&D than 3.5? When 3 came AD&D was a tired worn thing, lot of life still in 3.5. I have no idea how many people still play AD&D, I'd guess 10% or less. Many more than that will stay with 3/3.5 from the sentiment I've seen.
something that has popped up occasionally, but usually gets drowned out by both the haters and hater haters is that the writing is on the wall.
Haters: Assume paizo says F*** you to WotC and steals their 3.X base. That would be great for...me, and others like me. Then what? Eventually another revision/edition will release, another gaming world releases, all the books disintegrate from overuse...game over, conversion.
Hater Haters (cough...sebastian...cough): Paizo adopts 4E and moves forward hopefully gaining subscribers to offset any who will jump ship.
Either way, the clock is ticking - and it doesn't go backwards. Both camps have valid points here. Poking the haters with sticks at every opportunity and making fun of them for their usually visceral responses accomplishes less than nothing. It deepens the very real rift in the community.
Interesting fact though. Every poll and thread so far has been pretty hugely in favor of flushing 4E. I personally, am very curious to see what happens at the D&D experience. Will it change my mind? Maybe. Will I convert? Hell no. The way I see it, the "primo" fluff rolled out thus far has fallen short of my expectations.
I really hope you pro 4Eer's get what you want, I just wish it didn't require the sacrifice of what I wanted.
can I get an emo award? ;)
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Well, I'm not a subscriber, but I've bought every issue of Pathfinder at full price, and plan to continue doing so. I like to support my FLGS, and I live in an apartment, so I really don't want my books crammed into my tiny mailbox or left on the doorstep exposed to the elements and thieves.Being a non-subscriber doesn't necessarily mean "less valuable customer."
I agree. In this particular case, it's just easy and obvious to count subscribers on the boards. Without access to the books, it's hard to say how big a percentage of Paizo's sales on the PF/GM stuff comes from without and how much comes from subscribers.
If only there had been a question 4...
4) If you are not a subscriber, do you buy equivalent products to any of our subscription lines on a monthly basis? If so, which?
:D
Answers seem to come in two flavors:
1. I'll never convert, and if Paizo does convert, I'll cancel all my subscriptions, tell my friends Paizo eats doggy doo, and never ever buy anything from Paizo again, not even insulin for my diabetic mother if she were on her deathbed and Paizo was the only supplier.
2. I'll probably (not) convert, but I like Paizo products enough that I'll continue to purchase from them no matter what and support in other ways or, with great regret, cease purchasing their edition specific products.
And people wonder what the difference is between a hater and a reasonable skeptic...
Are you sure there is nothing inbetween?
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I really hope you pro 4Eer's get what you want, I just wish it didn't require the sacrifice of what I wanted.
can I get an emo award? ;)
No, but maybe if you ask Lilith or Mike very nicely you might get a cookie!
But seriously, DV has an attitude very similar to my own position.
4E does not appear to be what I want for my D&D game. Could I be wrong? That's always a possibility (and it would be pure arrogance to say otherwise), but I think its improbable based on current information.
Do I wish harm/ill events to those who created/play it? Not in the slightest. I sincerely hope that 4E provides you with the gaming experience that you've always wanted. I may get a little tired of people trashing 3.xE and/implying that I'm less astute or of a less discerning nature, but I deal.
Do I feel angst towards Paizo if they convert? No, if they do it'll be just as much of a business decision as 4E is, and I don't hate WOTC for creating 4E. Does that mean I'll spend money on products that may or may not be usuable in my 3.xE games... I find it interesting that the anti-4E crowd has been told to "vote with your money and not your mouth" but when they state an intent to do so they get jumped on...
For the record, I did not assume that I was in Sebastian's "poo" category although I did wonder if he would put me there.
When you guys finish quibbling over the quibbling, can I get a glass of water, here? I'm parched.For a dead animal, you sure do demand a lot of attention. I'll tell you what, when I'm done quibbling over quibbling, I'll quibble over quibbling over quibbling and then I'll get me some BBQ sauce and a fire and make some horseburgers for everyone.*
*except the haters.
I was thinking it would be fun to start a thread called "Anyone else noticing a trend in the 'Anyone else noticing a trend in the gut check thread?'?"
Then I realized that only I would think it's funny.
Then I realized that only I would think it's funny.
Your not the only one.
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You know what's funny. My wife and I are expecting twins, so I am clearing out my "gaming library" and converting it into a nursery. In the process, I have had to pack up a lot of rpg books. I haven't packed up any of my 3rd edition stuff yet, but likely will by the end of the year. But I did pack up my 2nd edition stuff.
WOW!
I had a lot of 2nd edition stuff, bookcases full. Complete Ninja's handbook? Really? All that Birthright stuff, FR stuff, and 1st print 2nd ed. and black cover 2nd ed books. I had like a whole book case. My "official" 3rd stuff is only like 21/2 bookshelves and I own it all.
I owned way more 2nd edition stuff, in volume and in inflation adjusted dollars, than I own 3rd/3.5.
I was excited about 3rd edition then, and I'm excited about 4th edition now.