Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, WAIT! Can I point out that we're arguing over fiction that cannot be proved by any means?
EDIT: and kobolds have no wisdom penalty, either.
Right, but a typical kobold DOES have a wisdom penalty, see their stat block. This means your typical band of kobold warriors is on the foolish side.
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you're just a cynic that refuses anything that disproves your point as being "stupid". Just saying it is wrong does not make it so, just as saying you are right does not make it so. You have your opinions that you can implement in your campaigns, and we have ours. Either of us arguing will not change either of our points of view, so it is pointless to discuss it further. And may I state again, THAT IT IS JUST A GAME WITH MADE-UP RULES, CREATURES, AND MAGIC, NON OF WHICH CAN BE PROVEN BY ANY MEANS. Thank you for your time.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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You seem to have ignored my point about Lothlorien. By your own logic, why do we bother making elves use good tactics?
I didn't ignore it, I didn't find a point to respond to. Lothlorien is an exceptional location. I have no issue with exceptional kobolds, but when the exceptional becomes the typical, I cry foul.
Right, but a typical kobold DOES have a wisdom penalty, see their stat block. This means your typical band of kobold warriors is on the foolish side.wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, WAIT! Can I point out that we're arguing over fiction that cannot be proved by any means?
EDIT: and kobolds have no wisdom penalty, either.
Actually, I think that was the original roll that kobolds got. Kobolds don't have penalties to wisdom, as they have no penalties to charisma or intelligence. They have penalties to constitution and strength, and a bonus to dexterity.
I didn't ignore it, I didn't find a point to respond to. Lothlorien is an exceptional location. I have no issue with exceptional kobolds, but when the exceptional becomes the typical, I cry foul.You seem to have ignored my point about Lothlorien. By your own logic, why do we bother making elves use good tactics?
I suppose I can agree. Every kobold should be allowed to flee in terror, and even get away, but he shouldn't be able to have cunning tactics in every spot.
"You walk into a den of kobold children. They hiss, and light fire to their moat of pitch, which they have created ahead of time, due to their uncanny ability to always know where you are."
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Actually, I think that was the original roll that kobolds got. Kobolds don't have penalties to wisdom, as they have no penalties to charisma or intelligence. They have penalties to constitution and strength, and a bonus to dexterity.
Base kobold stats from the SRD:
Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
That's -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Right, but a typical kobold DOES have a wisdom penalty, see their stat block. This means your typical band of kobold warriors is on the foolish side.
Actually, I think that was the original roll that kobolds got. Kobolds don't have penalties to wisdom, as they have no penalties to charisma or intelligence. They have penalties to constitution and strength, and a bonus to dexterity.
Base kobold stats from the SRD:Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
That's -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
Actually, a 9 or 8 is a -1. And a 13 is a +1
And what I meant was that kobolds have no racial penalties. Sorry, I was a bit unclear.|
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"typical kobold encounter"
8 kobolds, lying in ambush. A few trip wires set up, with 1 or 2 pitfalls dug, depending on the prep time they had. When the PC's wander in, the kobolds attack with ranged weapons, then retreat when 1 or 2 of the kobolds fall. They fall back, running past the pits in hope that the PC's will follow and fall in. The kobolds make another plan, probably similar to this and then try again the next night.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Right, but a typical kobold DOES have a wisdom penalty, see their stat block. This means your typical band of kobold warriors is on the foolish side.
Actually, I think that was the original roll that kobolds got. Kobolds don't have penalties to wisdom, as they have no penalties to charisma or intelligence. They have penalties to constitution and strength, and a bonus to dexterity.
Base kobold stats from the SRD:Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
That's -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
Actually, a 9 or 8 is a -1. And a 13 is a +1
And what I meant was that kobolds have no racial penalties. Sorry, I was a bit unclear.
You're right - that stat mods are in the kobold characters section. I forgot that 3.5 uses the elite array for generic bad guys and you can't do the +/- thing anymore. They do just get mods to Str, Dex, and Con.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Right, but a typical kobold DOES have a wisdom penalty, see their stat block. This means your typical band of kobold warriors is on the foolish side.
Actually, I think that was the original roll that kobolds got. Kobolds don't have penalties to wisdom, as they have no penalties to charisma or intelligence. They have penalties to constitution and strength, and a bonus to dexterity.
Base kobold stats from the SRD:Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
That's -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
Actually, a 9 or 8 is a -1. And a 13 is a +1
And what I meant was that kobolds have no racial penalties. Sorry, I was a bit unclear.
Oh, forgot to mention this:
The kobold warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Oh, forgot to mention this:
The kobold warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
Sheesh. I already said you were right! ;-)
I was using the 3.0 method of determining stat modifiers - which doesn't work the same as 3.5.
Wow, this thread went up fast. And when this is posted, there will be another post. It is amazing.
Oh, forgot to mention this:
The kobold warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.Sheesh. I already said you were right! ;-)
I was using the 3.0 method of determining stat modifiers - which doesn't work the same as 3.5.
I rest my case. This thread moves at light speed.
I have no issue with exceptional kobolds, but when the exceptional becomes the typical, I cry foul.
I've stayed out of this up until now, but this statement hits the nail on the head. Nobody I play with likes a gameful of clichees.
you're just leaving it out because it contradicts your point. When you DM, you can make kobolds however you want, but the fact stands that it's a WoTC book that states things about the D&D game. You're stating your opinions, I'm referencing written documents. Your argument seems to have holes....
While I personally like the 'elite commando' style Kobolds I think Russ has a valid reason to disagree. WoTCs Races of the Dragon is simply one view of kobolds but there have been other views before and there will likely be other views after.
Races of the Dragon takes its que from the 'elite kobold' reconceptualization of the race that occured after an editorial in issue #127 of Dragon Magazine. Prior to this editorial in 1987 Kobolds where generally run as the smallest cannonfodder in the book, afterword it became something of a fad to make them into the most nasty and devous of the monsters available. 2nd Editions The Dragon of Firetop Mountian is probaly the pinicle of this theme, by 3rd they where reconceptualized again (as little dragons) but I've not really seen them done quite to the extremes of Dragon of Firetop Mountian in this edition.
Arguing that WoTC has released some book and therefore all kobolds must be run strictly according to the tenents of the book might make sense if you have never viewed kobolds in alternate ways but for someone that has been around as long as Russ has its just one more take on a creature that has been invented and reinvented at least four times over the course of the D&D game.
So I'm not really in agreement with Russ in his view but I do agree with him that the concept of Kobold presented in Races of the Dragon is just one point of view regarding them and I'm not really fond of that particular view - personally I'll take pieces of what they presented and incorperate them but a lot of the material (underground kingdoms of kobolds as secretive super traders) is lame and not at all intergrated with the rest of cannon. Outside of articles about kobolds are there any refferences at all to these underground trading networks in any product anywhere?
The book also really fails in the sense that it does not work at the game table. A kingdom of Kobolds is usually not very interesting as a place to adventure - to many encounters with kobolds, it gets boring after awhile.
I have no issue with exceptional kobolds, but when the exceptional becomes the typical, I cry foul.I've stayed out of this up until now, but this statement hits the nail on the head. Nobody I play with likes a gameful of clichees.
Really? I actually like cliches a lot of the time. It kind of sets the base tone for the game. So dwarves that mine, are dour, and drink to much is certianly cliche but I'd actually be annoyed if a product came out that decided to 'break the mould' by making them all abstinent, happy go lucky and working on their latest comedy for the festival would really annoy me unless the whole point of these Dwarves was to act as some kind of a spoof.
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again, that is a matter of personal preference and has already been discussed (to hell and back). Personally I would like to encounter kobolds like that sometimes, as a player I've only encountered them but a few times (our DMs like to use unusual fodder). A sentient creature should retain some respect. Besides, after getting beaten left and right by any adventurer that leaves his house, you would think that they would get the picture and toughen up.
Really? I actually like cliches a lot of the time. It kind of sets the base tone for the game. So dwarves that mine, are dour, and drink to much is certianly cliche but I'd actually be annoyed if a product came out that decided to 'break the mould' by making them all abstinent, happy go lucky and working on their latest comedy for the festival would really annoy me unless the whole point of these Dwarves was to act as some kind of a spoof.I have no issue with exceptional kobolds, but when the exceptional becomes the typical, I cry foul.I've stayed out of this up until now, but this statement hits the nail on the head. Nobody I play with likes a gameful of clichees.
Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to work we go...
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Since humans don't have any particular affinity for alignment (even neutrality) humans are less 'organized' than kobolds. Kobolds may not take 'lawful' to an extreme like hobgoblins, but they probably are more organized than the typical human town. Sort of like Soviet Communists. They do what they're told from on high, where in human towns there is sort of an idea that if everyone is left to their own devices, somehow it will all work itself out right.
So, if we imagine we have an organized society, let's think about how it should be arranged. There probably is some kind of division of labor, since it is more efficient, and instead of having people not very good at anything, you'd have people that are pretty good in their particular field. Our experience is that kobolds are usually a threat for low level characters, so there are few high level kobolds. Probably the highest level is around 7... And these are among the longest lived and most respected of the kobolds. Most kobolds encountered are simple War 1 (since that's the default in the MM). Obviously these aren't full time miners and such, and probably represent only a fraction of the society (which, following the rules, would mostly be commoner class - no matter how lame that is).
So, these people are professional soldiers. They aren't very experienced, and they have a high mortality rate in melee combat. It sounds like to survive as a race they're going to have to minimize their exposure to direct conflict with other races. How to do that?
Step 1) Minimize your interaction with other races. Basically, set up your homes and workshops in areas that other races find uncomfortable or unpleasant. In underground lairs and ruins seems like a good place, compared to, say, verdant river valleys.
Step 2) Make sure that you have layers of protection. Focus on having friendly residents that will protect you for some form of payment (like a dragon). Make traps where you can.
This all seems pretty reasonable. I think if I were a kobold I would end up pretty much like people have been talking about. Spending a lot of time thinking about how to make traps would make sense. And while traps do have a high monetary value, some of that is pretty silly. It costs how many thousands of gold pieces to dig a pit trap? Maybe if you pay union scale. Good thing these kobolds are communists. They're not expecting to be compensated for their digging at standard human wages.
I don't think they need to be played as tactical geniuses to make a good challenge. The thing is, they're almost always encountered at home. And that makes a huge difference. They've set up everything to favor them when possible. That is definitely something someone of average intelligence would do.
Of course the biggest problem with kobolds is that they're always encountered in areas with 10' ceilings. That means that they're giving the advantage to the 'big people' that keep invading. If you put their tunnels with 4' ceilings so medium creatures have to squeeze to get through, you'd be doing things right.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Some comments...
Squeezing: per the rules, if a medium creature is squeezing, so is a small one. Squeezing is based on facing, and small and medium creatures have the same facing. One of my pet peeves is Living Greyhawk modules that say that kobolds don't have to squeeze in small tunnels. Fact is, they do. In return, they aren't stuck with no reach like the tiny creatures that don't have to squeeze.
Per the MM, half of the population of a kobold tribe are warrior 1s, so they aren't really a fraction of the population, they are the norm (since the noncombatants would also include children, the warriors are the largest single element of the population).
Also per the MM, the kobold "modus operandi" isn't lying low and minimizing contact, they patrol a 10 mile radius of the tribe and attack anything intelligent that enters that area. Note that also means they aren't always encountered in lair. It isn't used much, but the kobold patrol should actually be a fairly common encounter - with their lack of quality stealth, the patrol doesn't have that great of odds of skulking off undetected if they decided they're outmatched.
I disagree that people of average intelligence will do a great job fortifying their home - if anything, society shows that people of average intelligence fail to take even minimal precautions against ill-fortune, preferring to put it off for later. So, some fortifications, but a lot of "eh, nothing's happened YET".
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I disagree that people of average intelligence will do a great job fortifying their home - if anything, society shows that people of average intelligence fail to take even minimal precautions against ill-fortune, preferring to put it off for later. So, some fortifications, but a lot of "eh, nothing's happened YET".
You're comparing the average kobold to the average human. That outlook is of the lazy person, not the person of average intelligence, although many fall into both categories. Just because a person is smart does not mean that they will take all of the necessary precautions against any danger. That takes paranoia, a trait often possessed by cowards, which is the most widely accepted personality trait of kobolds.
EDIT: Besides, how often is it that random people come in and try to kill us in real life? I bet it's not on a daily basis like it is in D&D
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With a kobold, it's generally ONCE, not daily.
EDIT: Besides, how often is it that random people come in and try to kill us in real life? I bet it's not on a daily basis like it is in D&D
His other point, about the kind of cowardice that kobolds have being the kind that tends to breed paranoia, is valid, however.
Kobolds aren't elite commandos. They're little, weak, and easy to kill in a world full of things that are generally bigger and nastier than they are. As you say, the average kobold will get killed when attacked. This is going to instill a strong sense of terror and suspicion in them, over the passing of generations. Unless there are exceptional circumstances like a large bunch of friendly missionaries trying to help them, they're going to tend to assume the worst of anyone entering their territory. They're also going to want to try to even the odds. So are they going to be omniscient and have traps prepared specifically for every group? No. But I would wager that over the passage of generations, the 'ten mile radius' around a kobold lair, particularly the patrol routes, are going to end up with traps along them, and they'll tend to try to fall back to a position that gives them an advantage. It isn't genius military tactics. It's common wisdom to go for the 'high ground' in any encounter, and as KC pointed out, kobolds are not racially penalized in either Intelligence or Wisdom. They should average out with a paranoia-inclined average mind; and as I do actually know a couple of people who are clinically paranoid, I see nothing wrong with them having set up their home territory in advance to handle the general threat they see in the world beyond their range. They don't think like sane humans; they think like paranoids who believe the world is against them. That's as far from them being blundering halfwits who'll trip over their own tails as it is from them being a race of commandos.
With a kobold, it's generally ONCE, not daily.
EDIT: Besides, how often is it that random people come in and try to kill us in real life? I bet it's not on a daily basis like it is in D&D
Yeah, I'll admit that my brethen tend to die...rather quickly. I blame the adventurers.
I (respectfully) disagree completely. This is generally the kind of kobold I've faced throughout my history, and this is frequently how I play kobolds (and other smaller monsters) -- give them some equipment and a little organization, and some top notch training and tactics and show the players what they are capable of.The DM is under no obligation to only present monsters as they appear in their MM entry blocks, or carefully construct their encounters so that the players won't be overwhelmed or caught off guard.
I agree. I think that too often monsters like kobolds and goblins are dismissed as fodder. With a little prep and a little equipment (And from what was posted, the kobolds equipment wasn't that much) These little fodder creatures can whup some PC butt. (I'm a little bias on kobolds, I played a kobold paladin in SCAP.)
The "Uberkobold" cliche always irritated me as well. The problem that I have with it boils down to consistency: Cautious players should be able to determine the threat level of their foes with fair accuracy. Many of the "killer kobold" encounters I've seen are deliberate attempts to counter the supposed "creampuff" nature of kobolds, and don't match the supposed culture or resources of the kobold race.
Kobolds are often described as a race that breeds rapidly, habitually works in groups, and uses traps and ambushes to overcome their physical weaknesses. They identify with and idolize dragons, and favor sorcery. Based on that, the idea of "Kobold Spartans" seems out of character.
A more internally-consistent tribe of the little sneaks might cultivate pets or allies to serve as their heavy infantry. I picture giant bombadier beetles as mounts for kobold crossbowmen in howdahs. When hotly engaged, the kobolds dismount and fall back, leaving the beetles to cover their retreat. Thrown flasks of lamp oil inhibit their foes' charges (Care to make a DC: 5 Balance check, Mr. Rampaging Tower Shield?) as well as posing a potential fire threat.
If the players are aware that kobolds are more dangerous than they "should be", then "killer kobolds" are fair. If its just a way to "sucker" them into overconfidence or make a low CR creature into a party-killer, then they're an irritant.
The "Uberkobold" cliche always irritated me as well. The problem that I have with it boils down to consistency: Cautious players should be able to determine the threat level of their foes with fair accuracy.
No, the players should always be on their toes when fighting monsters, trying to figure out if their foe is a serious threat.
No, the players should always be on their toes when fighting monsters, trying to figure out if their foe is a serious threat.
I agree with adding enough mystery to reflect the "fog of war" and the characters' limited knowledge (as opposed to the players), but arbitrarily upgrading foes without giving the PCs a chance to detect something out of the ordinary is just unfair. Shouldn't a ranger whose favored enemy includes kobolds or a rogue mith maxed-out Knowledge (Local) benefit from their familiarity with such opponents?
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I agree with adding enough mystery to reflect the "fog of war" and the characters' limited knowledge (as opposed to the players), but arbitrarily upgrading foes without giving the PCs a chance to detect something out of the ordinary is just unfair. Shouldn't a ranger whose favored enemy includes kobolds or a rogue mith maxed-out Knowledge (Local) benefit from their familiarity with such opponents?
I agree that characters with in-game knowledge should benefit from that. I think the "uber kobold" is a way to catch powergamers by suprise. They don't put ranks in knowledge, how does that make their character better in a fight? Kobolds aren't much of a challenge, why pick them as a favored enemy? These are the people that the "uber kobolds" were designed for. Suddenly the weakest creture, the one who posed absolutely no threat to your character, just outsmarted, outfought, and outclassed everybody. Didn't see that coming.
No, the players should always be on their toes when fighting monsters, trying to figure out if their foe is a serious threat.I agree with adding enough mystery to reflect the "fog of war" and the characters' limited knowledge (as opposed to the players), but arbitrarily upgrading foes without giving the PCs a chance to detect something out of the ordinary is just unfair. Shouldn't a ranger whose favored enemy includes kobolds or a rogue mith maxed-out Knowledge (Local) benefit from their familiarity with such opponents?
I agree. Kobolds who are more powerful should have a few things to distinguish them. Better equipment, wings, that sort of thing (thought wings might be overkill).
Am I the only one whose first experience with kobolds makes all this "elite commando" stuff somewhat absurd? I remember playing 2nd ed and all the kobolds would do was yell "Get the shinies!" and attack en masse, yipping and yapping, sometimes running away to provoke us to chase them right down a hall filled with traps.
Am I the only one whose first experience with kobolds makes all this "elite commando" stuff somewhat absurd? I remember playing 2nd ed and all the kobolds would do was yell "Get the shinies!" and attack en masse, yipping and yapping, sometimes running away to provoke us to chase them right down a hall filled with traps.
Shh! Don't tell the adventurers that!
How much is too much?
When the creature's equipment becomes really good treasure.
[So dwarves that mine, are dour, and drink to much is certianly cliche but I'd actually be annoyed if a product came out that decided to 'break the mould' by making them all abstinent, happy go lucky and working on their latest comedy for the festival would really annoy me unless the whole point of these Dwarves was to act as some kind of a spoof.
Such a product would be "breaking the mold" only to stick them in a different one, and my players would still be annoyed! In-game, we generally stick to humans as a PC race--it's pretty much understood that there are large variations in human cultures and traits, without necessarily needing gnomes around to muddy up the picture further. When encountering another race that goes beyond an isolated village or whatever, my players' attitude seems to be, "Why should all dwarves have to be Gimli clones, instead of some dwarves being like that, and others maybe having a sense of humor?"
The first time they meet some dwarven miners, I can use the Tolkien stereotype with no problems. But the next group of dwarves, I feel the need to differentiate them from the first a bit--otherwise I end up with a broken suspension of disbelief. So says the dwarf from village #2: "Those idiot mine dwarves fail to understand that wearing green and orange stripes is the only true way to show reverence to Moradin! Also, a lack of sunlight causes their beards to fall out."
I bought an adventure a while back and it had some very well "upgunned" kobolds yet they were believable. I think it was written by the incomparable Nicolas Logue. I believe it is called Crown of the Kobold King?
I enjoy a a kobold with some get up and go to a point. I seem to recall an adventure a while back about the return of FLame and it had a draconic Kobold warrior or acolyte or something and it stretched my players suspention of disbelief... having to fight a kobold as well as a red dragon and a fire giant in the same adventure. I thought that was pretty funny as they were playing an elf, dwarf and a wizard on a flying carpet. I guess players have thier limits and when one player is pushed beyond that limit it spreads pretty quickly through out the group.
In regards to the original post though, the DMG/MM set forth the amount of equipment an NPC is supposed to have. Once you increase that equipment by a certain amount, the CR increases as well. As proof, take the exercise to the most absurd levels. Run a party of 2nd level characters against 10 kobolds, each with a ring of three wishes. If kobolds are sporting 2x or 3x their typical treasure, that should increase their CR just as if they were built with all 18s or a 52 point buy.
Awright, I'll use Sebastian's reply as my prime example to move on.
Seems most folk feel the answer to OPQ#1 (original poster's question number one) is "Yes, you went too far and were being a snarky DM. Your Kobold Spartans were so totally unbelievable as to ruin my game - and I wasn't even there." Fair enough.
However, OPQ#2 was barely touched on and not ever really answered for me. Some of the kobolds in this particular lair had the following changes:
-replace Alertness with Phalanx Fighting
-replace Leather Armor with Breastplate
-replace crappy weapon with a short sword and longspear
-give them a large steel shield
As we discovered, this changed their fighting ability *radically,* making them far harder to hit. As far as being able to hit the adventurers, there wasn't any improvement - they were simply able to stay in the fight as a target a LOT longer. The back rank had reach and cover.
With all that, facing six Kobold Spartans, is the DMG-assigned EL of ~2 appropriate or should it be higher? (counting in the 4 archers would only up it to an EL of 3) The party was composed of 4x 2nd-lvl characters, all of whom were experienced gamers. Now, grant you, the DMG defines an EL=party level to be "challenging" and as "one that should expend about 20% of their resources."
(A Warlock would have eaten the Kobold Spartans for lunch, with his teammates along just to be distractions...)
I discovered the bit about squeezing and that drove me NUTS! I had really wanted them to be at a disadvantage from squeezing, but it wasn't RAW.
Oh, and LC - you would have loved the BBEG they never encountered. A 3rd-lvl Dragonwrought Dragonfire Adept - yes, a blue-scaled fire-breathing kobold - with wings!
All in all, I may rework the adventure and have the kobolds be more Ross-typical - and just throw a lot more at the party.
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All in all, I may rework the adventure and have the kobolds be more Ross-typical - and just throw a lot more at the party.
Rule Zero Point One.
Ignore each and every one of us and do whatever your party is likely to enjoy.
If that's dozens of screaming naked savage kobolds running out of the darkness with spears and wicker shields, to be cleaved down round after round after round, until the party has a 'corpse fort' that the newer ranks of Kobolds have to clamber over to get to them, cool beans.
If that's an encounter where they party has had things flung at them from the shadows and had to navigate cramped tunnels and untold dangers just getting to the little blighters that keep shooting and withdrawing, while the PC says in a panicked voice, "What do you mean they threw stuff to smother our torches? They can't do that! They're just animals, man...", then more power to ya.
The rules give them a racial average Int 10, making them as capable of crafting fine gear as a Dwarf (also racial Int 10), and as capable of producing a tiny scaly squeaky-voiced Sun Tzu as a Human (also racial Int 10). But for every Sun Tzu, there's gonna be a couple dozen General Custers, and your Kobolds might not have lucked out.
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I guess the one point that most of us (including myself) missed was that D&D is played to have fun, not to have arguments. Generally, you shouldn't try to kill the players unless they really deserve it, because it will take away from the fun, making everyone not want to play. So, a general rule of thumb is: if it reduces the amount of fun the group is having, maybe it was a bad choice. If the players enjoyed it, try to gear other encounters that way or towards more unexpected ways.
Contributor
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I missed this discussion earlier. I have a few comments.
1) I find it interesting that several people have said that the OP isn't giving fair warning that these kobolds are non-standard. IMO 6 kobolds wearing breastplates standing in formation is fair warning that these kobolds are atypical.
2) I also find it interesting that this encounter upset people with how it is an example of the cliche of the trapmaster killer kobolds. I personally think that cliche is well ensconced in the game, and has been since the early days. You can ignore Races of the Dragon, and cite the MM, but I'll them ignore the MM and cite countless sources since the Keep on the Borderlands (original) on forward. More to the point though, kobolds in phalanx formation wearing armour is NOT an example of this cliche.
3) To answer the OP's question, I would modify the CR of this encounter for sure, but to simplify, I'd give them elite array abilities, and make them fighters instead of warriors, and equip them appropriately as 1st level npcs (which allows up to 900 gp!), and call them CR 1 and be done with it. Otherwise, I'd call the CR 1/2 for the bonus gear.
4) If a player in your group believes that kobolds are wimps (as the OP said), then it is not a cliche for them, no matter what you do.
5) So kobolds and humans are equally intelligent right? So kobolds shouldn't use more intelligent tactics than humans right? Okay. But they shouldn't use stupider tactics either. And what is a smart tactic for a human is not a smart tactic for a typical kobold. Kobolds are suited to hiding, using traps, using tunnels, and hit and run tactics, based on their racial traits. Humans are suited to a variety of tactics. It would be stupid for kobolds to NOT play to their strengths. Humans can build awesome fortified tunnels with defensive traps and structures if they want. But PCs don't do that sort of stuff. Of course kobolds focus more on defenseive structures than PCs. It doesn't mean they are smarter. It means they aren't stupider.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Seems most folk feel the answer to OPQ#1 (original poster's question number one) is "Yes, you went too far and were being a snarky DM. Your Kobold Spartans were so totally unbelievable as to ruin my game - and I wasn't even there." Fair enough.
That wasn't my intended point at all - the believability of kobold tactics was an issue raised by Russ that I thought was interesting. What I saw in the OP was the question "does equipment affect CR." The answer is yes. The DMG gives guidelines for how much equipment an NPC should have. If the upgunned kobolds have 2x or 3x their normal equipment, that should effect their CR. I have no idea what the numbers are - if you crunched the data and the increase in their equipment is within the guidelines provided by the DMG, then I would say their CR should not change. But if these kobolds are sporting equipment well beyond what is typical for a CR 1/4 (or is it 1/3?) creature, that should be translated into an increase in their CR. The absurd example is the kobolds outfitted with full plate and magic swords or a ring of wishes.
CR's are a band, not a point. Some monsters are on the high end of their CR (e.g., dragons) and some are on the low end. Swapping out feats from the core rules will generally push creatures toward the higher end of the CR, particularly if given access to specialized feats that you know the kobolds will be using against the party. I would be at a loss to make the claim that such optimization should result in an increase in CR. However, if you start giving out bonus feats or extra abilities, that would affect CR. I don't think that is what happened, but it is analogous to giving more equipment than DMG standard.
So in sum, my entire point is equipment affects CR.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Heheh ... My favourite kobold NPC used to begin every encounter, standing on the road in front of the PCs, rapier drawn declaring "My name is Greppo the Champion; you have killed my brothers. Prepare to die!"
The players were allowed about a round of giggling before Greppo would spring the trap on them "Unleash the ___________!"
Whatever it was Greppo was unleashing got larger with each encounter, invariably stepped on Greppo knocking him out of combat until the next month's encounter, and gave the party an appropriate and memorable encounter while travelling between cities.
Greppo sprung ogres, giants, dragons, a horde of owlbears, and an avalanche on the party at different points.
For some reason, it just never got old.
I've talked to a couple of the players now about the encounter. They were overwhelmingly convinced they had fun! The Gnome Rogue player liked having to scout out possible hidey-holes and find traps. (she found three) The Half-Orc Ranger type loved the fact that they were hard to hit! He did have Kobolds as his favored enemy and he knew - as a player - I was up to "something," but not exactly what. Now, in a campaign setting, I should have either let him know this group was known to be different or the entire adventure should have been a la "Scourge of the Howling Horde" w/ the BBEG previously mentioned having been the motive for upgunning the warband, which they would have found out at the end of the adventure.
Another universal acclaim from all four was my use of SKG's tileset. Those have been declared to be worthy of elevation to demigodhood immediately!
One complaint - one of my players claims the encounter worked out to an EL5! He figures my outfitting them with breastplates and shields raised their CR from 1/4 to 1/2 - and 10x CR1/2 monsters is an EL5. I disagree, because their re-equipping stayed within their wealth-limit of 900gp. No mwk, no special materials, no weapon feats, etc. Challenging encounter, yes...but wait! An encounter of the party's level is *defined* as "challenging"!
Honestly, I forgot to use some of the gear they had! Tanglefoot bags, anyone?
Also - phalanx fighting on the diagonal doesn't work well. A PC can move up into the "crack" and reach the second rank spearmen, negating the point of the phalanx. (pun recognized)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One complaint - one of my players claims the encounter worked out to an EL5! He figures my outfitting them with breastplates and shields raised their CR from 1/4 to 1/2 - and 10x CR1/2 monsters is an EL5. I disagree, because their re-equipping stayed within their wealth-limit of 900gp. No mwk, no special materials, no weapon feats, etc. Challenging encounter, yes...but wait! An encounter of the party's level is *defined* as "challenging"!
Isn't 900gps the wealth for a CR 1 creature? A CR 1/4 creature should have (approximately) 1/4 that wealth. If you gave them 4x equipment, that should increase their CR...
Edit: Okay, I finally busted out the DMG and looked it up. 900gps is the equipment for a 1st level NPC. A kobold warrior is not a 1st level NPC and giving them them more than their normal wealth should increase their CR. It's great that you had a good time playing the encounter, but the argument that the CR should be increased due to the equipment is fairly strong.
That wasn't my intended point at all - the believability of kobold tactics was an issue raised by Russ that I thought was interesting. What I saw in the OP was the question "does equipment affect CR." The answer is yes.
Seems most folk feel the answer to OPQ#1 (original poster's question number one) is "Yes, you went too far and were being a snarky DM. Your Kobold Spartans were so totally unbelievable as to ruin my game - and I wasn't even there." Fair enough.
Sorry, Sebastian - I should have structured my post a little better - I had no intent to lump you in with the "most folks" statement. My mistake in how I put the post together. As far as I know, I stayed within the DMG guidelines on equipping them - I took away their MM-issue gear and gave them what I wanted them to have w/in the NPC wealth-level for War1. (see my immediately-previous post, as I'm particularly interested in replies from you and Scribe on my clarifications there)
Edit: Okay, I finally busted out the DMG and looked it up. 900gps is the equipment for a 1st level NPC. A kobold warrior is not a 1st level NPC and giving them them more than their normal wealth should increase their CR. It's great that you had a good time playing the encounter, but the argument that the CR should be increased due to the equipment is fairly strong.
Hm - guess I been laboring under some misapprehensions, then. Since the MM-standard Kobold is a War1, I assumed he was a 1st lvl NPC for the wealth tables. Is this incorrect? I didn't think CR=lvl for that purpose.
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I'm leaving out Races of the Dragon because I don't own it, won't ever buy it, and I'm not going to steal a download. I've read through it, and consider it junk, one of the worst of the 3rd edition books. The fact that it apparently contradicts the MM description of kobolds in multiple places does not come as a shock to me, as that's part of why I rejected buying it in the first place.
I don't consider Dragon Mountain as evidence that core kobolds are superheroic either - rather, it is an example of the annoying tendency to MAKE them superheroic.
You're not going to be able to use a WotC supplement that potrays kobolds in the way I detest to convince me I shouldn't be bothered by how they are portrayed - if they were never presented as masters of traps, guerilla warfare, etc, I'd likely not be annoyed by that sort of potrayal.
You seem to have ignored my point about Lothlorien. By your own logic, why do we bother making elves use good tactics?
Besides that elves are the favorite due to a certain Orlando Bloom.
i was thinking of jumping in this thread but all i can say is cleaver and hunter have sumed it up the best. i stand by what they have said so far
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hm - guess I been laboring under some misapprehensions, then. Since the MM-standard Kobold is a War1, I assumed he was a 1st lvl NPC for the wealth tables. Is this incorrect? I didn't think CR=lvl for that purpose.
Ahh...I see, so you're reading the table as being for a 1st level NPC class? I can't point to a rule saying that the treasure scales off of the top of my head, but I think it's there. You might also check the appendixes to the MM. They've got a section about upping ability scores which may increase CR and that may include a discussion of equipment.
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Contributor
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I just checked, and wow, 10 CR 1/2 creatures is indeed an EL5, and as I said in my previous post, I would consider the increased gear worth a boost to 1/2.
OTOH, it has been admitted many times by WotC and other designers that large numbers of low CR creatures rarely actually add up to the threat level the EL chart says they do, and I would certainly say this is the case. For example many 5th level PCs could wipe out that encounter in one or two rounds, single-handedly: fireball would do it, as would good use of great cleave with a spiked chain. A typical party of 5th level PCs would waltz through them with almost no lost resources.
I wouldn't worry about calling it an EL 5. I'd put it at about a 3, which might be the strongest argument that their real CR is still only 1/4.