Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Yes. Any spell with an attack roll can deal sneak attack damage.
Maybe not any spell, I always forget if things like Ray of Enfeeblement do sneak attack damage. I think so, but I'm too lazy to confirm.
But a wand of shocking grasp definitely allows for sneak attack damage.
Director of Narrative
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Yes. Any spell with an attack roll that does damage can deal sneak attack damage.
Maybe not any spell, I always forget if things like Ray of Enfeeblement do sneak attack damage. I think so, but I'm too lazy to confirm.
But a wand of shocking grasp definitely allows for sneak attack damage.
Sebastian is right, though I fixed some of his text. The only reason that a ray of enfeeblement would not do sneak attack damage is that it doesn't do damage. Extra credit: You also cannot crit with a ray of enfeeblement because it confers a strength penalty and not ability damage, otherwise...crit away! That said, a piddly little ray of frost in the hands of a 10th level rogue does 1d3 cold plus 5d6 sneak attack.
That said, a piddly little ray of frost in the hands of a 10th level rogue does 1d3 cold plus 5d6 sneak attack.
"Spleen is . . . so . . . c-cold . . . "
"Spleen is . . . so . . . c-cold . . . "
that quote just won this thread
I'm just curious about a similar question that I have. Can you sneak attack with a splash weapon like an alchemist's fire, acid flask, or holy water. Only the person you hit, not everyone in the splash area. I have been running it that you can sneak attack with them, I just wanted to check with other people.
Looks like you can sneak attack with alchemist's fire and holy water as well; both require ranged touch attacks to be effective, so it looks like they'll work.
Of course, I could be wrong.
RPG Superstar 2013
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You can sneak attack with anything that does damage, and requires an attack roll.
You can sneak attack with a direct hit acid or holy water, but not with splash damage (ie by targeting a square).
Not all sneak attacks deal the same damage as their original damage type. The most common of this is negative energy damage instead of ability damage. Cause 1d6+3d6 strength damage is a bit much for a single attack from a CR8 shadow/rogue5 with a +8 incorporeal touch attack.
Not all crits deal double damage for all their damage types either. Wouldn't it be neat if a crit with night's caress dealt 30d6 hit points plus 2d6+4 Con?
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My understanding of the Ray of Enfeeblement is that it CAN do sneak attack damage - the extra damage is negative energy in the case of this spell, and it is normal (i.e. hit point) damage rather than extra damage to STR. I think it says as much in the Complete Arcane.
You Are correct..
Any Spell that has an attack roll can do sneak attacks if it meets the requirements for it to be a sneak attack. But it always does HP Dmg.
A great use for it is Vampiric Touch. You roll to hit and all and If the attack would qualify as an Sneak Attack you do Sneak attack Dmg also and all the sneak attack DMg is added to your HPS to!.
Spells that require a to hit roll that do Stat Dmg do Negeative Energy HP Sneak Attack Dmg.
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I'm just curious about a similar question that I have. Can you sneak attack with a splash weapon like an alchemist's fire, acid flask, or holy water. Only the person you hit, not everyone in the splash area. I have been running it that you can sneak attack with them, I just wanted to check with other people.
I'd say no.
A sneak attack is a surprise attack that damages a specific, vulnerable anatomic part of the opponent's body (at least, in the description for sneak attack in the PHB), and splash damage just does not qualify for this concept.
Can you tell me where to find this in the books?
Any Spell that has an attack roll can do sneak attacks if it meets the requirements for it to be a sneak attack. But it always does HP Dmg....
Spells that require a to hit roll that do Stat Dmg do Negeative Energy HP Sneak Attack Dmg.
The Complete Arcane pg 85 and 86 describe Weaponlike Spells and Sneak Attacks. The problem with Ray of Enfeeblement is that it's not damage it's a penalty which is not listed as one of the options for a Weaponlike Spell. A DM could rule that penalties were just left off the list but its really a good spell.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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As mentioned before, any attack that deals DAMAGE can be a sneak attack. You can't sneak attack with ray of enfeeblement or enervation but you could sneak attack with poison or night's caress.
Note a poisoned weapon deals ability damage from the poison, not a weapon, so a crit or sneak attack does not add this extra damage.
Hmm...I haven't had to look this up before, but I wonder if you can sneak attack with drain? I suppose only if drain is defined as damage that doesn't heal.
You can critically hit with splash damage if you aimed at a target (instead of a square) and hit the target, though the extra damage does not apply to splash damage. A crafty rogue might target the eyes or neck or....'others' with a splash of acid, and there's breaking glass to consider.
The PHB doesn't reference sneak attacks with such weapons, but I suppose if you can be critted with the weapon, you can sneak attack with it (except of course in the example of subdual damage). I guess most of the time a sneak attack yields about the same or less damage as a critical hit. Figure three dice is five levels of rogue, so you get 10.5 points for sneak attack vs eight or ten points for a d8+4.
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I think that the official answer is different to yours - I'm sure I saw in the Complete Arcane that you can sneak attack with a Ray of Enfeeblement - it uses that as an example - and then specifies that is does negative energy damage to hit points. Your comment on poison is slightly beside the point - the poison doesn't need a To Hit roll, the blow whereby it is delivered does.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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In fact, ray of enfeeblement is listed in Complete Arcane as an example of a spell that cannot inflict a critical hit because it does not deal any damage. It is not listed as a spell that can be used for sneak attacks, but instead that reference mentions spells that deal energy drain(which also reduces hit points), or ability damage. Since ray of enfeeblement does not deal damage, the Complete Arcane suggests you can't score a critical hit or sneak attack with it.
That said, a piddly little ray of frost in the hands of a 10th level rogue does 1d3 cold plus 5d6 sneak attack."Spleen is . . . so . . . c-cold . . . "
Lol!
Thats the funniest thing I've read here is at least a week. You win!
"If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied."
"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
"When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner."
Only melee attacks trigger flanking, therefore by extension only a melee attack can be a backstab. The point of a backstab is that you are targeting a specific vital organ, and thus can do massive damage. A spell cannot be used to flank or target a specific vital organ, and therefore cannot be used to make a backstab.
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Only melee attacks trigger flanking, therefore by extension only a melee attack can be a backstab.
I'm assuming you meant "sneak attack." This is not true.
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Only melee attacks trigger flanking, therefore by extension only a melee attack can be a backstab.
I would also point out that the "Flanked" condition depends on being "threatened" and not attacked so a rogue with a weapon in one hand and a wand in the other could "Spleen-Freeze"(good one!)-Sneak-Attack a flanked opponent if he as a flanking partener.
I would also point out that the "Flanked" condition depends on being "threatened" and not attacked so a rogue with a weapon in one hand and a wand in the other could "Spleen-Freeze"(good one!)-Sneak-Attack a flanked opponent if he as a flanking partener.
Only melee attacks trigger flanking, therefore by extension only a melee attack can be a backstab.
No, because flanking requires a melee attack. Activating a magic item is not a melee attack, and therefore would not qualify.
No, because flanking requires a melee attack. Activating a magic item is not a melee attack, and therefore would not qualify.
I understand that "gaining a flanking bonus" requires a melee attack.
My interpretation is that a rogue must "flank" (as in...two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle...) to perform a sneak attack but does not need to a "gain a flanking bonus" on the attack to do so.
I guess I run "being flanked" as something akin to a "condition" based on my interpretation.
No, because flanking requires a melee attack. Activating a magic item is not a melee attack, and therefore would not qualify.I would also point out that the "Flanked" condition depends on being "threatened" and not attacked so a rogue with a weapon in one hand and a wand in the other could "Spleen-Freeze"(good one!)-Sneak-Attack a flanked opponent if he as a flanking partener.
Only melee attacks trigger flanking, therefore by extension only a melee attack can be a backstab.
Activating a magic item with a melee touch spell would. Might not work with a ray of frost but shocking grasp would qualify.
What he said. . . .
As in "Ouch! My kidney has an arrow stuck in it!"
Backstab is so 1st edition! We stopped calling it that ever so long ago--not PC, you know! ;)
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Sorry, BardsAndSages. Everything about your post is completely wrong. Note that we are referencing the rulebooks during the discussion. You can sneak attack with any ranged attack that deals damage, and with any damaging spell that requires an attack roll to hit.
Note the decription of sneak attack also includes the caveat that ranged attacks are only sneak atacks within 30 feet.
Sorry, BardsAndSages. Everything about your post is completely wrong. Note that we are referencing the rulebooks during the discussion. You can sneak attack with any ranged attack that deals damage, and with any damaging spell that requires an attack roll to hit.
Note the decription of sneak attack also includes the caveat that ranged attacks are only sneak atacks within 30 feet.
I think there is a distinction between sneak attacks one uses when flanking, which does seem to require a 'melee' attack of some kind and sneak attacks done from up to 30' which requires that the opponent be denied their dex - at the table that's usually becuase they are still flat footed.
Hence ray of frost probably can't be used to do sneak attacks when your flanking as its a 'ranged' touch attack and not a 'melee' touch attack. It could be used to make a sneak attack if the opponent was flat footed or otherwise denied their dex.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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If you cast ray of frost with a weapon in one hand, and you threaten the character you are casting the spell, you can sneak attack while flanking them. They are still dividing their attentions, still threatened and still flanked. Andy Collins might disagree with me on this, but I've learned not to wait on him. He's too busy answering things like:
Q My DM tells me to sheath a weapon provokes an attack of opportunity. Where does he get that from?
A The Player's Handbook.
So, if you want some, ahem, sage advice (note I did not capitalize those), I think you can sneak attack any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC...or when the rogue flanks her target.
Doesn't say anything about having to be a melee attack. This opens up new possibilities for strategy maybe. Have to look into that.
By the way, I should have mentioned thatmy second post was inaccurate. Apparently you can sneak attack with enervation, since hit points are lost with the negative levels. I don't like that much (as I think it's hp loss instead of damage), but it is listed as an example.
Still a big no on ray of enfeeblement, though.
If you cast ray of frost with a weapon in one hand, and you threaten the character you are casting the spell, you can sneak attack while flanking them. They are still dividing their attentions, still threatened and still flanked. Andy Collins might disagree with me on this, but I've learned not to wait on him. He's too busy answering things like:
Q My DM tells me to sheath a weapon provokes an attack of opportunity. Where does he get that from?
A The Player's Handbook.
So, if you want some, ahem, sage advice (note I did not capitalize those), I think you can sneak attack any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC...or when the rogue flanks her target.
Doesn't say anything about having to be a melee attack. This opens up new possibilities for strategy maybe. Have to look into that.
By the way, I should have mentioned thatmy second post was inaccurate. Apparently you can sneak attack with enervation, since hit points are lost with the negative levels. I don't like that much (as I think it's hp loss instead of damage), but it is listed as an example.
Still a big no on ray of enfeeblement, though.
I think your getting Threatening and Flanking confused.
Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.
So you can't meet the criteria to do a flank attack unless you use a melee weapon. Wand of Ray of Frost does ranged touch attacks and does not qualify as a melee weapon. If you had a short sword in your hand as well this would not allow you to make a flank attack with the wand, holding a melee weapon does not turn ranged touch attacks into melee attacks.
Where holding the melee weapon would help is for your ally on the other side since you threaten the bad guy in the middle just by virtue of the fact that your holding the melee weapon - so the other guy would then be able to do a flank attack with their melee weapon. If you had two wands in your hands you'd not even threaten flanking and your buddy would not be able to do flank attacks.
ol....................... sorry bro, if u look up initiative you can deny them their dex bonus by being before them in initiative as well. Denying dex bonus is not dependent on flanking, but can be caused by flanking. In fact, there is like 1000 feats when sneak attacking with ranged weapons
Yeah - I explicitly mentioned that possibility in at least one of my posts on this thread. But it would not be a sneak attack via flanking, it'd be a sneak attack via ones opponent being denied their dexterity, in this case they'd be flat footed.
Nor do I disagree that their are spells and feats that would grant one the ability to do sneak attacks via other sets of circumstances it just was not the issue I was addressing.
Useful Wand spells for Sneak Attacking! These are expensive ways of dealing damage of course. But any thief worth a damn has plenty of cash. I took these from the Spell Compendium and SRD.
Think this has convinced me to play a Rogue in Savage Tide.
0 - Level Spells
Electric Jolt
Ray of Frost
1 - Level Spells
Chill Touch
Corrosive Grasp
Orb of Acid, Lesser
Orb of Cold, Lesser
Orb of Electricity, Lesser
Orb of Fire, Lesser
Orb of Sound, Lesser
Sniper Shot
Ray of Flame
2 - Level Spells
Belker Claws
Wracking Touch
Scorching Ray
Splinter Bolt
3 - Level Spells
Claws of Darkness
Vampiric Touch
4- Level Spells
Orb of Acid
Orb of Cold
Orb of Electricity
Orb of Fire
Orb of Force
Orb of Sound
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Most important thing I can mention for the debate is that flanked and flanking bonus are NOT the same thing.
When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
This image demonstrates flanking..
If you are in a flanking position, your opponent is flanked. You can sneak attack with a spell or wand. You do not have to threaten the target, only the ally on the other side must threaten.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.