So your thinking no then?Never. Ever.
No.
Njet.
Nein.
Non.
Niet.
Can I think about it again? ... Well ... No. :)
Yes.
Without hesitation: YES!
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No. Not buying the books or playing it.
By the way, by my tally, up to and including myself, we have:
Yes: 21 (18%)
No: 67 (56%)
Maybe: 30 (26%)
So even if all the maybes joined the yeses, that's still 51 to 67. From this data it's pretty obvious that 4.0 is cutting out over half their player base. This is supported by the poll on the front page too.
Except that I'd bet good money a chunk of those 67 will cave and buy in the end.
No. Not buying the books or playing it.
By the way, by my tally, up to and including myself, we have:
Yes: 21 (18%)
No: 67 (56%)
Maybe: 30 (26%)
So even if all the maybes joined the yeses, that's still 51 to 67. From this data it's pretty obvious that 4.0 is cutting out over half their player base. This is supported by the poll on the front page too.
Sweet!
No, this proves that 4e is only appealing to 50% of the people on the Paizo boards who bothered to answer the poll. These numbers mean nothing to WoTC or the overall success of 4e, and who knows if they accurately reflect anything to Paizo (I hope they don't because it means there's a really bad future for them if they alienate 50% of their audience either way).
No, this proves that 4e is only appealing to 50% of the people on the Paizo boards who bothered to answer the poll. These numbers mean nothing to WoTC or the overall success of 4e, and who knows if they accurately reflect anything to Paizo (I hope they don't because it means there's a really bad future for them if they alienate 50% of their audience either way).
Thanks Shroomy. My thoughts exactly. Here's a crude graph showing the relationship of this "poll" to anything but the bandwidth it's taking up:
Nothing..poll.............................................................. something almost meaningful.
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No, this proves that 4e is only appealing to 50% of the people on the Paizo boards who bothered to answer the poll. These numbers mean nothing to WoTC or the overall success of 4e, and who knows if they accurately reflect anything to Paizo (I hope they don't because it means there's a really bad future for them if they alienate 50% of their audience either way).Thanks Shroomy. My thoughts exactly. Here's a crude graph showing the relationship of this "poll" to anything but the bandwidth it's taking up:
Nothing..poll.............................................................. something almost meaningful.
To me it comes back to my days working at my local game store. 2E was on its way and the consensus among the regulars was - why do we need that crap. The the day arrived, the books started to show, and they sold really well. The grognards stood by and watched in horror. They all agreed that it was crap so why would anyone want to buy it?
Within a year they all made the switch or stopped playing any form of D&D.
When 3E was on its way the same darn thing happened again except this time a whole bunch of 2E holdouts bought in as well.
I expect 4E will be the same story all over again. Some will buy in and some will play other games but the sales will be good and the majority of D&D players will eventually make the switch.
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No, this proves that 4e is only appealing to 50% of the people on the Paizo boards who bothered to answer the poll. These numbers mean nothing to WoTC or the overall success of 4e, and who knows if they accurately reflect anything to Paizo (I hope they don't because it means there's a really bad future for them if they alienate 50% of their audience either way).
I think this proves that people resist change it is exactly what happened when 2e and 3e came out. People will fight kicking and screaming and buy them eventually when nobody is making 3e products anymore. As much as everyone is saying I have enough 3e stuff to play forever (hell, I have enough 2e stuff to play forever). It is the nature of people to try the new thing. And when everyone else on the block has it it is almost irrestistable.
I can't wait for a year from now to have the same conversation in a couple of flavors. Who has bought the books - who is playing 4e. (Probably it will take longer than that - like 1 1/2 to 2 years). Then it will be 90% won the books and 80% are playing 4e. Looking forward to seeing that conversation...
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I think this proves that people resist change it is exactly what happened when 2e and 3e came out. People will fight kicking and screaming and buy them eventually when nobody is making 3e products anymore.
I'm staggered by the number of people who feel free to dismiss others considered opinions against 4ed and pontificate on how those who reject 4ed are "resisting change" or "refusing to face the truth" when they state they will not play it.
Why is it that since a segment at this site likes the coming edition, they feel convinced that those who don't are silly, misguided, ignorant, lying, etc...? I would suggest that the inability to grasp how someone can thoughtfully disagree with something you support shows a certain lack of mental flexibility on your part.
My rejection of 4ed is not a knee jerk reaction. It is not based on a fear of change. It is, in fact, a rejection of the design sensibilities coming out of Hasbro-Wotc today. Brace yourself: I just don't like their ideas.
btw, my asnwer is no to 4.0 (in case anyone was confused).
To me it comes back to my days working at my local game store. 2E was on its way and the consensus among the regulars was - why do we need that crap. The the day arrived, the books started to show, and they sold really well. The grognards stood by and watched in horror. They all agreed that it was crap so why would anyone want to buy it?Within a year they all made the switch or stopped playing any form of D&D.
When 3E was on its way the same darn thing happened again except this time a whole bunch of 2E holdouts bought in as well.
I expect 4E will be the same story all over again. Some will buy in and some will play other games but the sales will be good and the majority of D&D players will eventually make the switch.
Like I've said before, my issue isn't really the ruleset, since that's just a means to an end (though WotC's cack-handed handling of the transition did brown me off a lot). My issue is that I've invested a wodge of cash and will only make a transition when I feel like I've gotten value for money. So give it at least two more years.
So as to next summer- NO.
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I think this proves that people resist change it is exactly what happened when 2e and 3e came out. People will fight kicking and screaming and buy them eventually when nobody is making 3e products anymore. As much as everyone is saying I have enough 3e stuff to play forever (hell, I have enough 2e stuff to play forever). It is the nature of people to try the new thing. And when everyone else on the block has it it is almost irrestistable.
I can't wait for a year from now to have the same conversation in a couple of flavors. Who has bought the books - who is playing 4e. (Probably it will take longer than that - like 1 1/2 to 2 years). Then it will be 90% won the books and 80% are playing 4e. Looking forward to seeing that conversation...
I acknowledge that past editions changes have gone the way you and crosswiredmind have stated. People declared the new edition was "not D&D" or swore they'd "never convert" and I'm sure many did indeed convert/abandadon the game. Based off your collective analysis, there does indeed appear to be a cycle to this. While I freely admit that I have not played D&D as long as many of you have, and only experienced the 2E-3E-3.5E changes, I would like to point out a couple of observations that, to my mind, might distinguish this change from the past ones.
1st: While it is always true that with new editions there will be new crunch/fluff, with a little work you could convert old to new or new to old. Point in case, recently I ran my PC's through the "For Duty & Deity" adventure, adapted to epic level 3.5. Additionally, to give my games a little more character I take spells/items/characters from 2E and update them to 3E (Ex: "Frostrune's Restraints" is an epic spell in my game). Similarly, while there are monumental fluff changes between the other editions, nothing other than a little DM work stops me from using older edition fluff for my games. The WOTC team has explicitly stated such things are no longer convertable. This tends to convince me that all of my crunch/fluff is 100% useless if I switch, where before I would argue less than 25% was useless.
2nd: Unlike other editions, 3.xE allowed other publishers to market products. Granted, some are better than others, but WOTC is by no means the only (D&D) game in town (from a non IP POV of course). While some big name 3rd party publishers have indeed declared they are 4E bound, not all have and a number of less well known publishers have also stated their support for 3.xE. Maybe they will eventually abandon 3.xE, or maybe they won't. Either way, I (opinion alert!) feel it may be... premature... of you to assume that everyone will convert because at some point no one will make 3e stuff. If sales are insufficient, then certainly you may indeed be correct. I guess my objection is that its not a foregone conclusion all 3E sales will cease.
With regard to the polls... statistics are funny creatures. Having studied them, only slightly, I realize that they can be skewed in any number of ways. Paizo's numbers lean in one direction, EN's World's probably lean in the other, but as stated above they only reflect those who are willing to vote. The only time we will know for certain how many people have switched or not will indeed after the fact. Nonetheless, business use such statistics all the time. Probably because its better to use some numbers than no numbers whatsoever.
As an aside, it seemed to me there was a lot of anger in the last bit of your post, and considering the heated emotions on this topic I find that understandable. As someone who does not currently plan to convert to 4E for a number of reasons (crunch/fluff, starting new job so $ is limited, too many good products yet to use) I'd like to (hopefully respectfully) say one thing to you and any other pro-4E people out there.
Roll some dice, have fun with your system of choice, and don't let what I or any one else detract from that enjoyment.
Sincerely,
Forgottenprince
No.
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I'm undecided until I see a finished product (or at least browse through it and get in a short demo, perhaps), but most of what I've heard hasn't done much for me so far. I think a better, less antagonistic, less "revisionist" presentation of WHY some things are being changed from 3.x might have changed some of that.
Why is it that since a segment at this site likes the coming edition, they feel convinced that those who don't are silly, misguided, ignorant, lying, etc...? I would suggest that the inability to grasp how someone can thoughtfully disagree with something you support shows a certain lack of mental flexibility on your part.
I don't think people who disagree with me are silly, misguided, ignorant, or lying. I think they honestly have no intention of switching. But twenty-odd years of experience tells me that D&D by its very nature dependent upon community to thrive and therefore eventually the vast majority will make the switch. Could it be different this time? Sure, anything is possible...I'm just hearing exactly the same things I heard when 2E came out, and again when 3E came out. Or perhaps *those* people didn't really mean it? Hmm...
To which do you lend more credence: words, however earnest, or your own experience?
I acknowledge that past editions changes have gone the way you and crosswiredmind have stated. People declared the new edition was "not D&D" or swore they'd "never convert" and I'm sure many did indeed convert/abandadon the game. Based off your collective analysis, there does indeed appear to be a cycle to this. While I freely admit that I have not played D&D as long as many of you have, and only experienced the 2E-3E-3.5E changes, I would like to point out a couple of observations that, to my mind, might distinguish this change from the past ones.
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Bravo for articulating why you think this time will be different. And while I don't agree, I respect you for making a cogent argument.
Today: No.
Tomorrow: No.
Next week: No.
Next month: No.
Day of release: No.
Next year: No.
Ever: Maybe.
Uncle, droppin the Grognard wisdom.! What's up RJK glad to see ya back!
Many individuals have expressed a disinterest in 4th edition because of the amount of money they have spent in hardcover books for 3.5 edition. The cost of 2nd edition paperback books were around $20.00 each. The quality was lower because the book wasn't as sturdy and therefore would not last for years. With 3.5 producing hardcover books, quality in this regard has changed. When cost comparing, 2nd edition softbound books were about $20 each while 3.5 hardcover books were $30-40 each.
I would say most players and DMs use a small handfull of books over and over in 3.5. Certainly the core three books, plus maybe 2-4 others on a regular basis. These are the books that will require replacement over the years and they will be readily available over the internet for the next 20 years or so. The remaining 45-55 books within large collections are not going to be used enough in ten years to become worn out.
Certainly many people who say "No" to 4th edition will eventually change their mind. I'd say the majority that say "No" to 4th edition because of the amount of 3.5 books they already have and the money invested are far less likely to become fickle and change their minds. Yours truly included. Those of us who have some interest in writing articles for D&D are likely to pick up the core three books for research purposes only.
The point is, I think those of us who fall into this demographic are far less likely to switch to 4th edition because of the large amount of money invested and the fact that the books are hardcover indicates that they will last far longer than those of 2nd edition. Thus, comparing people who said they wouldn't switch from 2nd-3rd edition, and from 3rd to 4th edition is not a particularly solid issue when considering this view point.
A poll evaluating how many 3.5 books people purchased could warrent further discussion on the fickleness of one's D&D book collection.
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Why is it that since a segment at this site likes the coming edition, they feel convinced that those who don't are silly, misguided, ignorant, lying, etc...? I would suggest that the inability to grasp how someone can thoughtfully disagree with something you support shows a certain lack of mental flexibility on your part.I don't think people who disagree with me are silly, misguided, ignorant, or lying. I think they honestly have no intention of switching. But twenty-odd years of experience tells me that D&D by its very nature dependent upon community to thrive and therefore eventually the vast majority will make the switch. Could it be different this time? Sure, anything is possible...I'm just hearing exactly the same things I heard when 2E came out, and again when 3E came out. Or perhaps *those* people didn't really mean it? Hmm...
To which do you lend more credence: words, however earnest, or your own experience?
Thank you for the calm, considered tone of your reply. It is not posts like this I object to, but rather the posts where a person who does not know me, or any of the other anti 4ed crowd, feels capable of dismissing all arguments with "whatever, you'll switch in the end. I know better than you what you will do"
In every edition change of D&D there was a segment that refused to switch. It appears from online communities and polls that the segment that seems most likely to reject 4ed is older, perhaps 30+.
Now that shows nothing conclusive, but it is suggestive. I think it would be fair to state that the new edition alienates a sizable (note I do NOT say majority) of older, established players. I would also suggest that for many, it is the fluff changes that have alienated them. From that starting position, and considering the mitigating factors that Uncle mentioned above about online availability/3rd party support, the pressure to adopt a new system is low.
The mechanics benefits would have to be OUTSTANDING to pull many of us in. I haven't seen the benefit so far.
A final note I would make is about Paizo's core audience. Past discussions with site staff and the community seemed to suggest that the average Paizo customer is older than the average D&D player. This would make a certain sense as Paizo has consistently demonstrated a respect and love of the game's traditions - be they persons like Uncle or Gygax, or IP like Greyhawk. Because of this audience demographic, I still hold an outside hope of SOME continued 3.5 support from Paizo. if any major 3rd party could do it, I beleive that Paizo would be the one.
Anyway, on the topic of words vs. experience, your experience is not the same as mine, so it has little value in suggesting whether or not I will switch editions. At this point I think you have to take a person's word for whether or not they will switch. To do otherwise easily could be construed as arrogance.
D&D is just a game to me. I don't have to play D&D. In fact, I skipped the entire second edition due to playing other games and only recently (relative term that) played the third edition.
So let's not go assuming people will 'cave in' to buying a game that actually has really good competition right this moment.
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I think that it's important to note several things here:
On whether "grognards/hold-outs" will eventually switch: The example of 1e/2e to 3e is not a firm one, as today's online resources and hedged product supply far outweigh what was available to players and DMs then.
Welcome back, Sir Robilar!
Glad to hear you're recovering!To add to the above; it's not just the increased volume of current online product that will keep older, or niche-interest games alive, but the ability of gamers to;-
- contact publishers direct (or sites like RPGNow.com), to place print-on-demand orders, thus allowing the publishers to more accurately read the demand for product, and not waste money on speculative print-runs,
- find second-hand copies of gaming materials, on sites like e-Bay, rather than being limited to whatever turns up in their FLGS or local yard sales,
- and most importantly of all, to find a like-minded group of players.
It is this last point that is the most significant, in my view.
I admit, I'm a Luddite, I came to this Interweb-malarkey fairly late, but how many forums like this one were around in 1990? Or in 2000?
Getting hold of a set of game rules is only the first step; you then have to find a group who wishes to play with them. In the past, many of the people who drifted to a new version of the game (or indeed, to D&D at all) did so grudgingly, because they were effectively being held hostage by the inertia of their current group. You were limited to finding players from the people you or your group physically met.
Nowadays, a potential player can visit a forum, and "Well I never! There's a game going down 10 miles from me! Who'd have thought?".
In the past, one might never have been aware of this other group, due to your paths never having crossed. Now, you can get in touch, sit in on a game, join in, and away you go. And your prescence in that group starts a self-perpetuating cycle; you never know, but one of the existing players may have been about to quit, and your prescence is the difference between that group disbanding, or continuing to exist. Then, as you spread the word through the gamers in your town, and they see that this other game system is a living, breathing thing, maybe it prompts others who say "Hey, I've always been curious about that game", or "I've got a copy of that! I thought I was the only one!".
And then you have a viable community who play that game in your area, rather than a few dozen individuals with a copy in their attic, convinced they'll never get a chance to play it.
So the simple question is - 4E yes or no (or maybe if you've not decided yet)?
4E - No
5E - No6E - Probably
Just bought Castle Whiterock (levels 1-15) so I now have enough 3.5E Adventures to last 16+ years, which means 6E should be out by then.
I will however look at the 4E rules, hopefully online or buying the PHB if I have too, so see what can be incorporated into my 3.5E campaign as "house rules". I currently only have two house rules, 1) everyone has "Quick Draw" as a free feat, and 2) minimum of half die hit points each level.
-- david
Papa-DRB
Grognard
Uncle, droppin the Grognard wisdom.! What's up RJK glad to see ya back!Hey Tobus. Well that "wisdom" could be refuted from many angles I suppose, but it contains enough past distillation of market fact to be of interest to some--especially to companies that are now stuck (or scrambling) in the "should we come or should we go" mode.
I am about recovered from some health issues and am very active again writing and in directing my company's future. PPP has taken a strong interest in the current D&D/RPG affairs, as discussed here and elswhere.
I also look forward to completing a large project for PAIZO, which until now has been on hold. I am sure that whatever edition of the game they eventually adopt that that project will be given the same attention to detail and loviing guidance that my previous Maure Castle installments in DUNGEON (rest its soul) received.
RJK
I'm glad to hear your feeling better. I will remain a 3.5 player because I have everything I need.(Starting over with 3 books when I have them all right now, the system works for me, we got some history me and my players, I even play in a Original AD&D game(12th magic-user and we're about to explore Maure Castle (WG5)...
Oji wants to know if you ever named Robilar's Green Dragons!(We recently got married)From a old thread about Maure Castle...Can I get you to here and share a tale, your a Legend(O.G.=Original Grognard)
The Ramblings of Grognard Madness: Postings of Things, Ideas & Ancient Imaginations
4E...
I'm not planning to run it. As a GM I favor the 3E/3.5/3.whatever rules...
Participating as a player maybe...should there be a friendly nearby GM who feverously insists on running 4E and only 4E...but right now, I don't see that happen...
Uncle here's a link that works!
The Ramblings of Grognard Madness: Postings of Things, Ideas & Ancient Imaginations
Short: No.
Long: Yes and No.
Extended: As written, never. But I've stolen/adopted/tacked-on/ (and especially) deleted so many mechanics in my day that I don't think it's fair to say I've ever played any game as written, or that I'm playing 3.5 now. I'll get the core books, eventually (they'll be on discount or second hand somewhere within six months / a year*), and take what I want from them. I'm sure there is something in there that will make my game better. Parts of it sound a little to "video game" ish, but I'm sure there are other aspects that will be good.
That said: The 4th ed Marketing has been poor, and seems built around the concept of upsetting the fan base. This could be handled much better than it is.
*One of the upsides to the release of 4e for bargain hunters like myself is the tide of 3.0 and 3.5 books I expect to find available second hand. I'll probably pick up some of that stuff before turning my attention to 4.0.
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When 3E was on its way the same darn thing happened again except this time a whole bunch of 2E holdouts bought in as well.
I expect 4E will be the same story all over again. Some will buy in and some will play other games but the sales will be good and the majority of D&D players will eventually make the switch.
Hello Crosswiredmind,
I was there too, and I remember much of the same.
But things were different back then : D&D had pretty much no competition, there were few other relevant RPGs, no Internet worthy to speak of, and no MMOs.
I loved 2e. It had great stories, great atmosphere, great worlds, great adventures. But then, the rules system was feeeling old. When TSR went under ... boy, did it hurt.
So when 3e came, I was very reluctant at first, but after a month of debate, I bought the dreaded new PHB, and found I liked it. Then i tried it with a few friends, and we had a blast.
Interestingly enough, we did not play any 3e adventures : we adapted 2e and 1e adventures we had not yet played, found they were really easy to run under the new system... with the new classes back from 1e ...
There was both an incentive to buy to keep the hobby alive, and a hot new game.
However, now we have a megacorp so flush with cash that they can afford to stay six months without a new product, a cynical treatment of the fanbase, and what seems so far ... a wildly inferior product !
What are the premises of 4e ? (in a short summary)
- Character roles : This is nothing new and already existed, except it's becoming a straight-jacket like limitation, much like the oh-so-decried alignment was, except worse. Bye, bye interesting and atypical characters
- Speedier gameplay : that looked like a good premise. Until say, the article relayed on ENworld about the role of the terrain in the game. Then I realised how empty that claim was. The article about conditions ... and the implied bookkeeping ... felt like work. 3e is work too, but where is the improvement ?
- The rewriting of the existing background. It sounds like "so, we're short on good ideas and interesting things to say, so we'll just pillage what we liked from the past, and spit on all the rest."
- Rewriting the monsters : This is something I hated back at 3e conversion, and I still vomit this today. Don't touch my babies.
- In short, I'm certainly old school, but anything that alters my capacity to use my library of adventures is bad IMO. So their claims that backward compatiblity won't be possible ... too bad for them.
- Empty communication about the rules content, and people getting excited over a nobody game-designer choice of shirt
- Really stupid people thinking their game will be better because their game has no PC gnomes (I don't care either way, it's the silliness of the argument).
- Getting excited over a random girl's blog. hey : I have met girs, I have talked to girls, I play D&D with girls, I have kissed girls... and worse... What's the point ?
- Copy and Paste from MMOs. I am a huge fan of video games. I liberally borrow from them. I have tried many MMOs. They bore me. Despite several attempts ... None of them appeal to me.
- Other things, but I'll mention them some other day.
In short, to me, the 4e game appeal is all about breaking with the past, and failing to deliver the future. Kind of an adolescence crisis. All about immaturity and poor choices. I am way past this.
It is also about money-grab and empty marketing arguments with no backing for some outrageous claims. "Fun" is highly subjective after all.
But the worse thing is that while on this forum people are reasonably civilized and polite, this is far from the case elsewhere. Between "grognard" and "Sacred Cow" which are already pretty insulting, there is no shortage of abuse on the people who merely show concern that this will not be their new relig... game.
4e is about hatred, teenager self-affirmation, and negativity. I was like this once ... long ago.
What do I play D&D and RPGs for ? It is a social game. I play it to enjoy myself first. And to meet new and interesting people with whom I have a common experience to a lesser extent.
Do I want to play or even share time, with rude, impolite, unpleasant, disruptive, semi-litterate 4e would-be players ? Hell, no ! If 5 minutes of them on the Internet is too much for me, I don't want a game session at my place with them ever. I don't want ANYTHING with them ever. If that's their game of choice, I don't want it.
But I won't quit RPGs because of this. I will play D&D 3.5 (and other games) with civilized friends and we will enjoy ourselves. Even if we are "no fun" types.
Please note that I do not bag everybody in this appreciation. Especially not the fine folks on this forum of course. You are at least litterate enough to hear an argument without resorting to insults ... unlike say ...
End of rant
Feel free to answer and disagree, that is my opinion.
I do have to concede that some changes seem ill-advised give how strongly people are reacting. Though personally I've always thought gnomes were marginal, enough people obviously feel differently to warrant their inclusion in the PHB; end of story.
For me the mechanical changes (and some of the flavor changes, once the reason behind them is expounded upon) outweigh any annoyance at the (what I perceive to be unnecessary) flavor changes. So I'm picking up 4E. But it sure seems like they could have done a much better job putting more people in the same boat, doesn't it?
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I'm staggered by the number of people who feel free to dismiss others considered opinions against 4ed and pontificate on how those who reject 4ed are "resisting change" or "refusing to face the truth" when they state they will not play it.
You know I did not say that at all. I am just saying I would like to see where all those people are in a year or more from now when there are no new 3.5 materials being released.
Why is it that since a segment at this site likes the coming edition, they feel convinced that those who don't are silly, misguided, ignorant, lying, etc...? I would suggest that the inability to grasp how someone can thoughtfully disagree with something you support shows a certain lack of mental flexibility on your part.
I find the direct slam to my mental flexibility offensive. Being I have not seen the new edition I do not know what I will do and I have a lot of things I want to play in 3.5 which will probably take years to play.
My rejection of 4ed is not a knee jerk reaction. It is not based on a fear of change. It is, in fact, a rejection of the design sensibilities coming out of Hasbro-Wotc today. Brace yourself: I just don't like their ideas.
I was not talking about any particular person (and I don't even know you).
I am just saying historically people (in general) have reacted the same way (myself included) and then over time most of them eventually started playing the new edition.
I am actually not even sure what I want to do - so I am not advocating 4th edition. I am just interested to see what the same people who have said they will not purchase it or play it are doing in a year to a year and a half.
I also think that when a person on here has an opinion about 4th edition they then generalize it too many others which is not necessarily true. (Again I am not referring to you).
I just say the same thing I have said since it began. Let's see what it is really like and then we will all make our decisions. Most of the people say Hell No, I Won't Go are just reacting (for whatever reason) because they do not even know what the new edition looks like (although now we have a lot of hints).
But I also know that if most companies shift I will want new materials (I am a bit of a collector - I even have the 1st edition L3 module which did not see the light of day until the 25th Anniversary stuff came out.
I also say that - there is a game I love playing and even though I may not agree with every decision the company makes. I do know that I want my game to continue and supporting that company is probably the best way to do so.
I imagine one day (hopefully I will be too old to play or dead) no one will be interested in playing together at a table anymore and everything will be on the computer. Or maybe we have a virtual reality thing going on. I do not know if I am physically up for that but it might be a great way for things to go...
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1st: While it is always true that with new editions there will be new crunch/fluff, with a little work you could convert old to new or new to old. Point in case, recently I ran my PC's through the "For Duty & Deity" adventure, adapted to epic level 3.5. Additionally, to give my games a little more character I take spells/items/characters from 2E and update them to 3E (Ex: "Frostrune's Restraints" is an epic spell in my game). Similarly, while there are monumental fluff changes between the other editions, nothing other than a little DM work stops me from using older edition fluff for my games. The WOTC team has explicitly stated such things are no longer convertable. This tends to convince...
I can't wait for a year from now to have the same conversation in a couple of flavors. Who has bought the books - who is playing 4e. (Probably it will take longer than that - like 1 1/2 to 2 years). Then it will be 90% won the books and 80% are playing 4e. Looking forward to seeing that conversation...
I am sorry it sounded that I was angry. I am actually preety cool on the subject. I am undecided about it and will see when it comes out. I am probably more intersted in following Paizo than I am in what edition I am playing but there is also some validity to supporting WotC who has the license for the game I like. Also, for me unlike many people who post here money is not a factor at all for me. And as a business owner I understand the necessity to continue producing products that people buy.
That is what happened to 2e and it was out of control by the time WotC stepped in and created 3e. I think that 3.5 is a huge improvement over 1e and 2e and who knows what 4e will look like.
I just find it amazing that people are so sure before they see the new edition what they will be doing in the future. They also do not know what the landscape will look like. I know you are correct that some of the lesser known publishers have said they will stick with 3.5 and who knows what Paizo will do (one of the big factors in what I will do).
I am just a student of human nature and my observations were more about that not aimed at a particular person or group of people. I am serious about wanting to know in a year or two where all the adament (and I mean some are really angry about the change) people landed when it was all said and done. Not that I care one way or another (I do not care what edition anyone plays) but it says a lot about how people do things. That is what I am interested in...
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Why is it that since a segment at this site likes the coming edition, they feel convinced that those who don't are silly, misguided, ignorant, lying, etc...? I would suggest that the inability to grasp how someone can thoughtfully disagree with something you support shows a certain lack of mental flexibility on your part.I don't think people who disagree with me are silly, misguided, ignorant, or lying. I think they honestly have no intention of switching. But twenty-odd years of experience tells me that D&D by its very nature dependent upon community to thrive and therefore eventually the vast majority will make the switch. Could it be different this time? Sure, anything is possible...I'm just hearing exactly the same things I heard when 2E came out, and again when 3E came out. Or perhaps *those* people didn't really mean it? Hmm...
To which do you lend more credence: words, however earnest, or your own experience?
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING... (movie reference) Well said - Thank you.
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Now that shows nothing conclusive, but it is suggestive. I think it would be fair to state that the new edition alienates a sizable (note I do NOT say majority) of older, established players. I would also suggest that for many, it is the fluff changes that have alienated them. From that starting position, and considering the mitigating factors that Uncle mentioned above about online availability/3rd party support, the pressure to adopt a new system is low.
I do agree the fluff changes are actually some of the most disturbing. There has been a fine history build over 30 years in D&D and to throw some of that out to reimagine the game is not very smart or welcomed.
But I still think it is human nature to have the latest thing... Maybe not your nature (which is fine) but in general. Look at the I-Phone. Everyone wants the latest thing in one way or another...
Just an observation - (disclaimer) these comments are in no way director toward a particular person or group of people - just an observation on human nature. Now you will be returned to your regular programming...
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Uncle, droppin the Grognard wisdom.! What's up RJK glad to see ya back!Hey Tobus. Well that "wisdom" could be refuted from many angles I suppose, but it contains enough past distillation of market fact to be of interest to some--especially to companies that are now stuck (or scrambling) in the "should we come or should we go" mode.
I am about recovered from some health issues and am very active again writing and in directing my company's future. PPP has taken a strong interest in the current D&D/RPG affairs, as discussed here and elswhere.
I also look forward to completing a large project for PAIZO, which until now has been on hold. I am sure that whatever edition of the game they eventually adopt that that project will be given the same attention to detail and loviing guidance that my previous Maure Castle installments in DUNGEON (rest its soul) received.
RJK
Uncle,
I am looking forward to that very much. I have been excited ever since Erik mentioned it.