Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If you want an easier analogy, you can take saving money. Suppose you want to save $100 dollars for 4e books. There are two ways of doing this:
1. Just save $10 per week out of your paycheck. That's how much you can afford, and after 10 weeks, you'll have the money you need.
2. Break $100 by the amount of time you have to save. If you're feeling ambitious, fold in an interest rate. You could start by saving $10 the first week and, because that amount will earn the most interest, decrease the amount saved each week. Or, maybe you only save $50 because your mom always gives you $50 for your birthday in May and you can use that to buy the books.
Both methods will get you the $100, it's just that the second method starts with the goal and uses that to derive the best procedure. The first assumes the method (save x per week) and is subject to other constraints (time to save, amount you can save, etc).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And the irony is that for all the designers *claim* that this will make monster design easier, it sounds like it would be much harder. The DM now has to create each and every single facet of the monster. It's damage now has nothing to do with it's Strength. It's hit points have nothing to do with it's Constitution. It's armor class may well have nothing to do with it's Dexterity. It's saving throws also may have nothing to do with it's ability scores. Every single aspect of creature design has just become a ballpark guessing game, which is great I guess if you're DM is Mike Mearls, but could be a bit less fun if it's one of the other 5 billion people on the planet who don't get paid to create new monsters for fun and profit. There's a selling point. "Buy the 4E Monster and do the work so we don't have to!"
Mutants and Masterminds starts with the CR of the opponent and then lets you build from there. Such a system is possible, and it becomes easier the more there are fixed benchmarks. M&M has fixed benchmarks on the saves, amount of damage, bonus to hit, defense, and toughness (hit points) which guide the process of building opponents. One of the things that has been suggested about 4e is that character level will be a direct influence on a number of aspects of each character, from to hit, to AC, to their saves. Assuming this to be true, you would have a pretty good benchmark as to what AC a 10th level character can hit 50% of the time. You can use that to determine the AC of a CR 10 creature. Putting this information in a chart and communicating it to the DM isn't that hard.
Under this new paradigm, what does a Ray of Enfeeblement do? It can't reduce Str, because monsters may not have Str, and even if they do, their damage may be decoupled from that Strength score. It probably won't just reduce X damage, because different beasts may use wildly different dice, based on the creators whim, meaning that the spell will prove to be useless against some DMs monsters and overpowering against another DMs monsters.If a player comes up with an idea to try and trap a beastie by dropping a door or tipping over a cart on it, what happens then? Does the beast's Strength score (if it even has one) have anything to do with it's encumbrance?
This was a problem in 2e. I severely doubt that 4e will make such an obvious and elementary mistake. I guess if you can't be bothered to give WotC any element of the benefit of doubt, the above could be true, but if your opinion is so low, there really isn't much point in having a discussion about the system prior to its arrival. You might as well rant and rave that they got rid of the combat rules and will use thumb wrestling to solve all conflicts. That is as valid of an assumption as what you've got above.
For example, simply breaking HD from Level would free up plenty of options. Making Level and HD equivalent was probably one of the larger mistakes in 3e.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard this idea. Its crazy, radical, and I really like it. If we allow creatures to have .5 HD, 1 HD, 2 HD or whatever per creature ‘level’ the 3.5 system would be much easier to use. Want a creature with a massive number of hit points but don’t want to shoot up the BAB or the Fort save? Design it with 3HD per ‘level.’ Problem solved.
I wish it had been used for character classes also. This would allow your character race to determine HD (i.e., all humans use d8 HD), but your class would determine how often you get new HD (wizard every other level, rogue 3 out of four levels, barbarian 3 every two levels, etc.).
One of the things I liked the most about 3.x was the single rule set for characters and monsters, going back to different rules for characters and monsters is a major disappointment to me. Then again, I’m an accountant, so I don’t mind the math and bookkeeping necessary to advance monsters in 3.x. But I do wish they had kept the single rule set between characters and monsters and added a fix like this.
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I hear ya but I like the point in the original quote - how do you make a critter with a bag o'HP without giving it a whopping huge fort save?I guess you missed the second reply to your original post?
Bemclaine (Ex): A creature with the Bemclaine ability is extraordinary resilient. For every Hit dice the monster has, it receives an additional 4hp.Easy as pie.
That is a sloppy kludge - not exactly what I am looking for. I don't want to hack a system to make a cool critter - I just want to do it.
We don't need "set rules" to create monsters. I'm sure I'm not the only one who made up monsters on my own, often "on the fly" for games. Again, they tell you can do something "new and fantastic" like you've never done it before or figured it out for yourself. I wish the people buying fourth would just mail me the hundreds of dollars they're going to waste and I'll mock them until 5th comes out and Wizards does it for me.
I never found 3rd edition particularly friendly for making 'instant' monsters. 1st edition on the other hand was very good for that. Thee were a lot fewer things to keep track of and once you decided the creatures HD a ton of other decisions were also made for you like how well the monster could hit and what its saving throws were. Monsters did not have stats so you did not have to worry about the goblins con score or anything like that. Pretty much you just choose HD, decided if it had any bonus hps on top of that HD. How many times it attacked and how much damage the attacks did plus anything special the monster could do. Really very easy in comparison to 3rd.
I would be interested to see how these monsters work when it comes to customisation. One of things I like about 3E is how the stats are the same for PCs and monsters and therefore you can mix those rules together - the aforementioned hill giant sorcerer. What I am hearing about 4E is that this won't necessarily be available now, as they have gone back to the 2E and 1E paradigm of monster being To Hit bonues, ACs and HPs and that is about it, with none of the other details. I kind of understand why that might be the case - adapting a monster can be a fearome amount of work under the 3E rules. But one of the reasons I really like 3E is the flexibility with the monsters. I would be disheartened if this is lost in 4E with the narrow categorisation of monster "role".
I agree with you. The monsters are a pain in the ass in 3rd. If I choose a fairly complex monster and then give it a template and then throw some class levels on that and go about choosing its equipment and feats that can easily take me more then an hour right there. Multiple hours if I'm giving it cleric levels or something and I have to choose its spells. Now admittedly I stat up my monsters very thoroughly so that I include things like the spells range or a description of what the feat does in the stat write up (my goal is never to have to crack a book when I'm running a monster as that slows up the game) but still its a lot of work.
...and I love them for it. The fact that I can make all these awesome complex monsters is really amazing. The reality is I don't generally have to give a monster a template and class levels - should I not have that kind of prep time I can just pick a monster straight from one of the books and write that up. Takes longer then 1st edition but I should be able to do the whole critter in about 15 minutes its simply a matter copying what the monster entry says into my adventure.
I guess I'll just have to see what they do with 4th. Maybe I'll love it when I see it or maybe not.
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That is a sloppy kludge - not exactly what I am looking for. I don't want to hack a system to make a cool critter - I just want to do it.
So... the DM can just make the monsters do whatever he wants, eh? The reason you had a big Con save if you had a lot of hit points is because they came from the same physical qualities. With HP being an abstraction, if you wanted to simulate the creature being "harder to kill" without it having a huge Con save, give it natural armour or some kind of magical defense. When the attackers hit less, it's just like having more hit points without screwing with the creature stats at all.
My imagining of how liberating (and fun!) this will be for the DM...
DM: OK, Creature X attacks, and it's slashing tail wraps around your leg.
Player1: What? You didn't describe a tail on this thing. Certainly not a "slashing" tail.
Player2: Yah!
DM: Well it has a slashing tail now, OK? I rolled versus your Dex already and you failed your save against its "Super-fun Sudden Ground Exploration" (formerly known as Trip) manoeuvre. ::dice clattering::
Player1: OK, Can I attack from the ground?
DM: I don't know. The superfun and simple combat system didn't feel I needed to know that. Anyway, while you're down Creature X also uses its breath weapon.
Player1: What?!
Player2: Huh, huh huh huh. You're toast, dude.
Player1: No way. I swing at its tail.
DM: OK, it's coated in adamantium, though.
Player1: For the love of... what gods are in this setting again?
DM: Kord, Bane, ...
Player2: Isn't Bane a Forgotten Realms god?
DM: Don't go there.
Player1: OK, I get up and attack the Creature X using my Superfly Snuka Sweeping Dragon Tail Cut attack. Hah! I hit. It has to be dead by now. I've been hacking the crap out of it for 18 rounds.
DM: Nope. It looks fine.
Player2: Last round you said it looked bloodied!
DM: Well it got better. Now it uses its wing buffett attack "Swooshing Membranes of Doom"
Player1: OK, what the hell are we fighting here? SOme kind of shapeshifter?
DM: No, it always had 30' tall wings.
Player2: To be fair, it sounded more like a landlocked mermaid when we first got here...
DM: Shut it, you, you're encased in carbonite.
Player1: OK, I throw myself on my sword. Oh wait, lemme look that one up... ::gives the DM the finger behind his character sheet::
So cool, now a beholder can have a body of ten armed giant!:)
So cool, now a beholder can have a body of ten armed giant!:)Wouldn't that make it just a "holder" then?
Ah but the beholder head can detach or dock upon the body, which btw is vampiric.
So... the DM can just make the monsters do whatever he wants, eh? The reason you had a big Con save if you had a lot of hit points is because they came from the same physical qualities. With HP being an abstraction, if you wanted to simulate the creature being "harder to kill" without it having a huge Con save, give it natural armour or some kind of magical defense. When the attackers hit less, it's just like having more hit points without screwing with the creature stats at all.My imagining of how liberating (and fun!) this will be for the DM... <snip>
LOL Thanks for that, it was a riot. I can see that in a 4E game in my mind...the part of the brain we still used in 1E through 3E, and in 4E the designers apparently use that and your imagination for you.
I would be interested to see how these monsters work when it comes to customisation. One of things I like about 3E is how the stats are the same for PCs and monsters and therefore you can mix those rules together - the aforementioned hill giant sorcerer. What I am hearing about 4E is that this won't necessarily be available now, as they have gone back to the 2E and 1E paradigm of monster being To Hit bonues, ACs and HPs and that is about it, with none of the other details. I kind of understand why that might be the case - adapting a monster can be a fearome amount of work under the 3E rules. But one of the reasons I really like 3E is the flexibility with the monsters. I would be disheartened if this is lost in 4E with the narrow categorisation of monster "role".I agree with you. The monsters are a pain in the ass in 3rd. <snip>
Yes, it may take some time. But, not every creature needs to be so heavily detailed. I only detail "boss" creatures and important NPCs. The rest I simply use the normal, or I set up a set of average NPCs prior to any adventure building I do. Such as the average Level 1 Commoner, the average city guard, the average wandering troll in this specific region known for their mighty claws (Improved Natural Attack replaced with Iron Will) for example.
This problem is all WotC's fault. See, they should've created a simple software program that allowed you to choose a creature from the SRD and alter it as you see fit, then print it. A feature, such as one-button templates, would be so much fun. You pick the monster, its stats appear. You pick the template, say vampire, and POOF! All the stats are arranged properly for your vampire whatever.
Then the program could do cool stuff like warn you if you're about to put a template on an illegal creature, and then asks if you still want to do it?
More cool stuff would be saving in your own creatures (homebrew, or creatures from outside the SRD) for the program to save and then you can mess around with it however you want.
Not just monsters, but combine it with feats, spells, skills, etc. and you'll have the Ultimate DM Tools ever. Need to know all the Strength-based feats that your ogre barbarian qualifies for? Or how about if you're looking for hit point bossting feats or feats that use swift actions to perform?
WotC had the capability of making 3rd Edition a very simple game, but they totally f!#@ed up and decide to make up for it in 4th Edition. You don't need a new edition, they could've saved 3rd Edition from whatever conceived dilemma it was suffering from with their D&D Insider junk.
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Monsterforge did some of what you describe - I've used it a lot.
http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/
For instance, I just now made a Skeleton, Spellstitched Half-Celestial Half-Dragon Quasit with 6HD (CR8)
Fun to play with :) But it's actually a very nice little program (well, spreadsheet). Credits go to Rob Cottrell on the site.
Monsterforge did some of what you describe - I've used it a lot.
http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/
For instance, I just now made a Skeleton, Spellstitched Half-Celestial Half-Dragon Quasit with 6HD (CR8)
Fun to play with :) But it's actually a very nice little program (well, spreadsheet). Credits go to Rob Cottrell on the site.
Tremble at my illogical glory! :)
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Monsterforge did some of what you describe - I've used it a lot.
http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/
For instance, I just now made a Skeleton, Spellstitched Half-Celestial Half-Dragon Quasit with 6HD (CR8)
Fun to play with :) But it's actually a very nice little program (well, spreadsheet). Credits go to Rob Cottrell on the site.
When you need a sophisticated speadsheet to play a game you know its too complex.
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When you need a sophisticated speadsheet to play a game you know its too complex.
Yep, cuz as my example above shows, it's so much better to make crap up on the fly, eh?
Do you seriously believe that the same thing isn't going to happen to 4e? It is, at its core, RULES. That tends to imply some level of internal consistency. 3.x did this very well. 4e will, too, eventually I bet. At the outset it's easy to say "simplified, faster system!" because they haven't developed anything for it yet (hell, it looks like they've barely finished the actual core rules, let alone addons).
I think that eliminating skill points for monsters would eliminate alot of the complexity (if you want to call it that) from monster design. At least it will take away the most annoying part of creating stat blocks.
I've never ever used these methods of Monster design from any edition, grabbed paper designed creature...You have to be a idiot to waste that much time pouring over books and rules...IMAGINATION use it...it has no rules...my monster designs are better then most of the crap in MM 4 & 5..
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I've never ever used these methods of Monster design from any edition, grabbed paper designed creature...You have to be a idiot to waste that much time pouring over books and rules...IMAGINATION use it...it has no rules...my monster designs are better then most of the crap in MM 4 & 5..
YAY! We can agree on something!
sweet.
I think that eliminating skill points for monsters would eliminate alot of the complexity (if you want to call it that) from monster design. At least it will take away the most annoying part of creating stat blocks.
That's a great idea. Might as well eliminate their feats as well, and build in those abilities to their natural abilities. Sounds like 4th ed. might try to de-couple the current system of monsters operating under the same principles as PC's.
Hell, if removing skills and feats from monsters made stat blocks smaller for most opponents in an adventure, then we'd have a better shot at getting higher level adventures...b/c they wouldn't have to waste space on those hideous stat blocks.
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@CEBrown - Yes. I believe the munchkins have finally taken over and achieved what they set out to do—they've broken the game!
I peeked at Worlds and Monsters on the shelf today and it seems the new "folgers crystals" that will be replacing our game includes poorly reconcepted, disperate items packaged into one non-cohesive (not even internally consistent) set of changes. ...Perhaps by writing the so-called "cool" stuff into the ruleset, it can help the 4E designers feel-like they're actually using their imagination when they play. Maybe there could be a small sticker somewhere on 4E that says, "true D&D not included".
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Maybe there could be a small sticker somewhere on 4E that says, "true D&D not included".
Well since we're being cheeky. If WotC forgets the stickers, luckily most folks can just peel the them off the backs of their 3e books and port them over. Because lets be honest, for the most part it required companies like Paizo, Necromancer Games and Goodman games to put the D&D into d20.
A D&D book should never have had to have any kind of sticker put on it in the first place. Another shame for WOTC.
No, its the vile darkness/exalted deeds crap. I really dont get the point of exalted deeds having the "mature audinces" thing. I think that the rationilazation was "moral dellimas" or something, and there may have been a nipple.
Getting to the topic, I LOVE the idea of seperating level and HD, but only for monsters. The PC system is fine as is. Also, I never bother with skills for monsters. I might put in some ranks in spot or, for spellcasters, concentration, but thats it. Making monsters has never been that hard for me; I actually prefer it to adding levels or templates. Demonic trees made of shadow chock full o' HP and enchantment spells? yes. Oozes that spilt and bestow negative levels on hits? Ayup. A construct made out of broken alchemical equipment and elemental coldfire? oh yeah. The only limit on what you can do is your imagination. The rules are a starting point, and the only job of the DM is to make the campagain fun for the players.
When you need a sophisticated speadsheet to play a game you know its too complex.
*Kruelaid shudders and barely resists attacking with a stream of ad hominem remarks.
Wow, is it even worth responding to you poorly thought out comments anymore?
I don't NEED a spreadsheet to play. Where do you come up with this stuff, dude? What he was talking about was a fringe activity that I have NEVER engaged in. If anything, it's good that someone who really knows the game still has outer edges to explore and evidence of a game that can appeal to an expert as well as a novice. Nobody NEEDS to do this.
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When you need a sophisticated speadsheet to play a game you know its too complex.*Kruelaid shudders and barely resists attacking with a stream of ad hominem remarks.
Wow, is it even worth responding to you poorly thought out comments anymore?
I don't NEED a spreadsheet to play. Where do you come up with this stuff, dude? What he was talking about was a fringe activity that I have NEVER engaged in. If anything, it's good that someone who really knows the game still has outer edges to explore and evidence of a game that can appeal to an expert as well as a novice. Nobody NEEDS to do this.
Let me put it this way. I know one person that still uses a blank character sheet and a pencil as opposed to dozens of people that use Hero Forge. I also know one GM that does not use some kind of Critter Forge.
To me that says that something is too complex.
This is one reason the tools on the DDI are appealing to me.
No, its the vile darkness/exalted deeds crap. I really dont get the point of exalted deeds having the "mature audinces" thing. I think that the rationilazation was "moral dellimas" or something, and there may have been a nipple.
It was apparently due to the fact that the BoED references the Book of Vile Darkness which mandated a "mature audiences only" label. That's what I read at release time.
Sorry for the threadjack.
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Let me put it this way. I know one person that still uses a blank character sheet and a pencil as opposed to dozens of people that use Hero Forge. I also know one GM that does not use some kind of Critter Forge.To me that says that something is too complex.
This is one reason the tools on the DDI are appealing to me.
I wonder how this would poll?
I never use computers to aid with character or monster generation. It's really not that difficult. I wonder whether the DMs that use these programs would say they need them or they just like them. It may be a matter of convenience more than necessity.
Let me put it this way. I know one person that still uses a blank character sheet and a pencil as opposed to dozens of people that use Hero Forge. I also know one GM that does not use some kind of Critter Forge.To me that says that something is too complex.
This is one reason the tools on the DDI are appealing to me.
I wonder how this would poll?
I never use computers to aid with character or monster generation. It's really not that difficult. I wonder whether the DMs that use these programs would say they need them or they just like them. It may be a matter of convenience more than necessity.
That poll would be interesting, all right. The DM and I are likely to kill the lone player that has his laptop at the game (no one else owns one, or doesn't bring it if they do). Yes, he uses it legitimately, but still . . . maybe a related thought. No one in our group uses software to help with character, adventure, or monster generation at all (maybe our laptop-equipped powergamer has changed on that point by now). I might recommend it to the DM if he seems like he's in need. While I've seen a few of tools available, I have no need for them. My characters can get quite complicated as is, but a few notes (namely, book name and page number) cover my needs.
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Let me put it this way. I know one person that still uses a blank character sheet and a pencil as opposed to dozens of people that use Hero Forge. I also know one GM that does not use some kind of Critter Forge.
To me that says that something is too complex.
This is one reason the tools on the DDI are appealing to me.
Weird, its like we're exact opposites. I know one person who uses computer stuff, and everyone else uses blank character sheets and pencils. This is getting eerie.
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Weird, its like we're exact opposites. I know one person who uses computer stuff, and everyone else uses blank character sheets and pencils. This is getting eerie.Let me put it this way. I know one person that still uses a blank character sheet and a pencil as opposed to dozens of people that use Hero Forge. I also know one GM that does not use some kind of Critter Forge.
To me that says that something is too complex.
This is one reason the tools on the DDI are appealing to me.
It may be that my group and the groups I know are composed of quite a few tech geeks. But it may also be a Living Greyhawk thing. At cons I see a whole lot of hero forge sheets on tables.
...
Let me put it this way. I know one person that still uses a blank character sheet and a pencil as opposed to dozens of people that use Hero Forge. I also know one GM that does not use some kind of Critter Forge.To me that says that something is too complex.
This is one reason the tools on the DDI are appealing to me.
Champions has computer generators. D&D has computer generators. Gurps has generators. Yet for all of these I can make my own with pencil and paper if I want. It saves time to use a program. The last math class I took I did my homework with a calculator. It saves time. When I do my taxes I use a calculator, and that's mostly addition and subtraction. It saves time and reduces the chance of error that exists in pretty well any simlulation heavy RPG system.
4th ed is going to have computer generators.
Is 4e too complex? Gee, I guess it's broken and needs to be fixed.
Sir, your nickname is apt. So apt that I no longer see any point in even reading your posts. You glibly spew carelessly casted argument and when people observe the weakness therein you obfuscate and reword, never admitting your logical missteps, as far as I've seen anyway.
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I'm willing to admit i often use computer software when dming but its more to do with my almost unreadable handwriting than the game being to complex.
In regards to monsters and Npc's Ive always felt that they can be as simple or as complex as you want them to be. Simple cannon monster creatures ill generally just take something out the monster manual whilst important monsters or Npcs ill spend a lot of time and effort on. Again nothing to do with the system being complex simply that i want to put more effort into that creature.
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And I HAVE used spreadsheets and PC generators from 2e days (most often the old HeroMaker software), whether they're "needed" or not, due to these two facts.
I use programs, not during play, but for NPC's and what have you (And that is me playing 2nd Edition), for reasons much like yours. Plus, I'm a paperwork neat-freak. I like my stuff looking smooth. I use the old AD&D Core Rules 2.0 program. Pure awesome. Best RPG program ever a far as I'm concerned.
Even as a disliker of 3e I wouldn't consider spreadsheets or programs necessary for the game. A tool is a tool, and if it helps make your job easier or look neater, I'm all for it.
I will admit that all the data a program has to process for 3e program makes them laggy though. ;D
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Sir, your nickname is apt. So apt that I no longer see any point in even reading your posts. You glibly spew carelessly casted argument and when people observe the weakness therein you obfuscate and reword, never admitting your logical missteps, as far as I've seen anyway.
4E will invariably be too complex and it will require some form of computer generator for PCs. I am ok with that part of the complexity. I do not relish needing a spreadsheet to create a quick bad guy or high level encounter. DMs have enough to do without having to turn their hobby into real work.
BTW if you are confused by what I say then ask questions - you may find that to be more civil than mudslinging.
BTW if you are confused by what I say then ask questions - you may find that to be more civil than mudslinging.
See, this is where we come into problems: I am not the one who is confused.
So I should clarify what you say by asking questions.... instead, here's a suggestion, why don't you try writing clearly.
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Coming back to the first post and rodney Thompson post: If I want to have a Monster with a lot of HP and don't want to change the Con or ad a Feat or ability, we do not need 4th!
JUST GIVE THE MONSTER FULL HP ON EVERY HD INSTEAD OF THE AVERAGE!
So a 10d8 would be 80hp instead of 45hp
a 10d10 would be 100hp instead of 55hp.
Yeah, sure, we need 4th to create a brute....
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Let me put it this way. I know one person that still uses a blank character sheet and a pencil as opposed to dozens of people that use Hero Forge. I also know one GM that does not use some kind of Critter Forge.
To me that says that something is too complex.
This is one reason the tools on the DDI are appealing to me.
So as long as the "electronic crutch" that you make it out to be is created (and charged for) by WotC then it's OK? And free or third-party versions mean that the game is too complicated? You've stopped making any sense at all, now (unless you actually do work for WotC, that is).
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4E will invariably be too complex and it will require some form of computer generator for PCs. I am ok with that part of the complexity. I do not relish needing a spreadsheet to create a quick bad guy or high level encounter. DMs have enough to do without having to turn their hobby into real work.
This is starting to go in circles.
So if 4th will be to complex for a player to generate a PC without computer, how on earth will it be easier to actually PLAY these rules?I honestly do not understand how more complex characters (and all those powers and stuff will be more complex than in 3rd) translates into smooth gameplay?
And look at the oldish article where the PCs fight the dragon I see the powers and attacks and whatnot that the dragon has (they are cool, I concede that). How does the Stat Block for the 4th Dragon will be easier to handle than the 3rd?
And lastly, it is said that encounters go much smoother and faster. But then we see that above fight took about 18 rounds. Even if every player of 4 players and also the DM only needs 2 minutes to decide what to do, roll dice and apply the results. It still will be (4players+1DM)x 2minutes x 18rounds = 180minutes.
I could do such a Fight with high level PCs vs. a Dragon in three hours for 3rd too.
This is why I do not believe that 4th will be faster and easier overall. Some aspects might go faster, say 1 round of combat. But they will be offset by the longer duration of the combat.
Or am I on the wrong track here?
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So as long as the "electronic crutch" that you make it out to be is created (and charged for) by WotC then it's OK? And free or third-party versions mean that the game is too complicated? You've stopped making any sense at all, now (unless you actually do work for WotC, that is).
Why do you assume that because i dislike complexity in 3E means automatically that I like the complexity of 4E? Or that WotC tools make that complexity OK?
I think both sets of rules will be too complex.
The point of this thread was to say that removing complexity from monster creation is something I look forward too as a GM. I think world building is hard enough without having to then work through a complex build process for each high level NPC and critter.
HeroForge is an awesome (though buggy) tool and I hope the char gen that comes with the DDI is just as good, or that HeroForge can adapt to 4E. As a player the complexity that needs to be overcome is tracking the interactions of skills, feats, class features, and stats. 3E has too many variables and synergies to track accurately without a spread sheet.
But quite frankly, that level of complexity is problematic. Role playing games like D&D lose some of their appeal when they become this rules heavy and character creation becomes character management.
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BTW if you are confused by what I say then ask questions - you may find that to be more civil than mudslinging.See, this is where we come into problems: I am not the one who is confused.
So I should clarify what you say by asking questions.... instead, here's a suggestion, why don't you try writing clearly.
It is not up to me to get inside every single readers head to make sure they understand what I have written. If you cannot follow what I am saying than ask a question.
Besides - it would seem that your confusion was not because of the things I wrote but because of the assumptions you made. You assumed that I was ok with complex rules so long as they were from 4E. I never said anything to that effect.
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So if 4th will be to complex for a player to generate a PC without computer, how on earth will it be easier to actually PLAY these rules?
3E character management is already too complex and the game plays ok.
I am assuming that 4E character management will also be too complex and it may also play ok.