I'm 29 years old, and though I was given the red box back in the day, the first edition of D and D I played was 3.5. That's how long it took for the game to finally hook me, and get me to introduce it to my friends. Why? Because it wasn't until I was in my mid 20's that I had the buying power and large number of like minded people to play with.
I have a friend who started playing 3.5 under me who is just now getting out of college, and thinking of going to grad school. He DMs his own group. When I tell him about the changes to the edition, particularly the Forgotten Realms, he becomes physically violent. I thought for sure that 4th edition might be his 3.5, the game he would pass on to others, but he (unlike me) doesn't want to switch to 4th because of all of what he sees as pointless/outrageous fluff changes.
DMs are what keeps D and D going. They are the people who bring in new people to play, and some of those people go on to be DMs themselves. I introduced 3.5 to eleven people over the last four years, at least half of which continue to play the game. My friend has most likely introduced the game to a like number of people in another city.
So here's what I'm wondering: How young do you have to be to be the target audience of 4th edition? I would have thought that age was not an issue, but from what I read, and from books like the Dungeon Survival Guide, I get the impression that its something targeted at 12 year olds.
What age group do you think actually buys and plays this game the most? For my money, people in college/grad school would have been my guess... So where did my thinking go wrong?
It seems to me that WotC is targeting young adults, finishing college and/or high school. As you said, these are the most likely individuals to spend time and money on the hobby, and have money to spend on it in the first place. In my opinion, they're probably looking at an age demographic of between 20 and 30 years old.
Also, with their heavy push to target a female market with 4E, I wouldn't be surprised if young couples comprise a fair chunk of that target demographic; it seems like the this is the most likely way for a sustainable female market to start playing the game, and also the most likely method of gaining additional customers as they start teaching friends how to play.
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I'm not sure, myself, about their target audience. I just know that I'm not one of them. There are many changes to the game that I don't like: getting rid of magic schools, getting rid of the Great Wheel, the inclusion of tieflings as a PC race, the "nuclear option" inflicted upon the Realms, just to name a few. There is also the emphasis they are putting on online gaming. Of course, you don't have to do it, but they are pushing it very hard. If I wanted that, I'd already be playing WoW, or doing play-by-post stuff.
It seems to me that WotC is targeting young adults, finishing college and/or high school. As you said, these are the most likely individuals to spend time and money on the hobby, and have money to spend on it in the first place. In my opinion, they're probably looking at an age demographic of between 20 and 30 years old.
If you want to know more about the buying habits of D&D players, you should take the time to listen to the Fear The Boot interview with Ryan Dancey, the man responcible for TSR selling D&D to Wizards.
Back when 3rd edition was first coming out, WotC started a serious market research campaign to find out exactly who bought D&D products becuase the folks from TSR just didn't know that information at the time.
What they found was that the most likely people to buy their game were college and high school students with low incomes, especially those living in the suburbs or going to school away from home.
Basicly, this is because D&D is a game that provides hours and hours of entertainment, without much cost relative to the entertainment provided. If a person has little mobility, say they are away from home at college or trapped in the burbs, have only a small amount of money, but have tons and tons of time on their hands, D&D becomes an amazing deal for the cost of the books.
That equation changes once a person has lots of money, reduced free time, or can go anywhere they want to find entertainment.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It seems to me that WotC is targeting young adults, finishing college and/or high school. As you said, these are the most likely individuals to spend time and money on the hobby, and have money to spend on it in the first place. In my opinion, they're probably looking at an age demographic of between 20 and 30 years old.
If you want to know more about the buying habits of D&D players, you should take the time to listen to the Fear The Boot interview with Ryan Dancey, the man responcible for TSR selling D&D to Wizards.
Back when 3rd edition was first coming out, WotC started a serious market research campaign to find out exactly who bought D&D products becuase the folks from TSR just didn't know that information at the time.
What they found was that the most likely people to buy their game were college and high school students with low incomes, especially those living in the suburbs or going to school away from home.
Basicly, this is because D&D is a game that provides hours and hours of entertainment, without much cost relative to the entertainment provided. If a person has little mobility, say they are away from home at college or trapped in the burbs, have only a small amount of money, but have tons and tons of time on their hands, D&D becomes an amazing deal for the cost of the books.
That equation changes once a person has lots of money, reduced free time, or can go anywhere they want to find entertainment.
I wonder if they redid that survey in preparation for 4e. I would hope (and expect) so. The ability to play a wide range of games online, including everyone's favorite straw man WoW, has probably had a significant effect on that data.
As an aside though, a substantial portion of the regulars on these boards is in the late 20s/30s range. Not sure why that is; the Paizo folks have indicated that their market research puts the average age of their customer at the young 20s. It might be that ENWorld and Wizards are frequently blocked at work, whereas Paizo is not, so you get a larger portion of older folks posting here. This place is much busier during working hours than evenings and weekends.
I'd avoid making the "I'm old and speak for everyone over 25" arguments.* I am interested in 4e and within that demographic; clearly the age to 4e interest correlation is not 100%. Plus, it may be that the older people interested in 4e have moved to forums that are more welcoming of that outlook, further skewing the Paizo "data" (such as it is).
*Not that I've really seen it made in this thread, but sometimes you get a poster that comes in all hot and bothered and thinks they are the only player in the over 25 age category and gives some condescending "you idiot kids don't understand how the game is really played" speech to the community, which, as mentioned above, is composed largely of 25+ persons.
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Basicly, this is because D&D is a game that provides hours and hours of entertainment, without much cost relative to the entertainment provided. If a person has little mobility, say they are away from home at college or trapped in the burbs, have only a small amount of money, but have tons and tons of time on their hands, D&D becomes an amazing deal for the cost of the books.
Very true. The most gaming I've ever seen was in the military barracks.
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*Not that I've really seen it made in this thread, but sometimes you get a poster that comes in all hot and bothered and thinks they are the only player in the over 25 age category and gives some condescending "you idiot kids don't understand how the game is really played" speech to the community, which, as mentioned above, is composed largely of 25+ persons.
*chuckles*
I get a kick out of the ones that grumble about 4e targeting kids when it is obvious that THEY have far more money then kids.
Now I figure it is a pretty safe bet that a large number of us cut our teeth for D&D with the Red Box, which was geared for....
Ages 10 +
And played with our D&D action figures while watching the D&D cartoon on saturday mornings...
And now all these years later we're still playing with a fervor.
Targeting kids don't work. ;D
There's also a substantial prison population according to Paizo.
I froze my retirement from the Michigan Department of Corrections. I was a Housing Unit Supervisor for 12 years, and an officer before that. Policy made RPGs contraband, but not every institution would enforce the policy, or understood what an RPG was.. so games would get in the system and you'd see them come in with prisoner transfers.
I felt bad about it, because it was a nice pasttime for them I thought, and they would make "spinners" instead of dice (can't have dice as they are gambing paraphrenalia)... But I had to have contraband hearings on their books and them send the stuff out.
They'd try to convince me that they weren't really RPG books, just strange books about fantasy stuff. In fact, painting and leatherworking is called 'hobbycraft activites', when TSR own the rights, prisoners would claim books were from "TSR Hobbycraft", trying to trick administration. I'd arrange for administrative hearing and they'd walk in thinking they'd trying to confuse the issue because I wouldn't know what an RPG was (like 95% of the MDOC). I'd sigh sympathetically and then tell them that today wasn't their lucky day.
But yeah, they play DnD in prison. I can attest.
You wanna know what killed it in Michigan? The original AD&D hardbacks had lists of real herbs that could be found in potions. Somebody dummy tried to brew a potion (long before I worked for the State), then got sick or high, and it just snowballed from there.
Yeah. I'm an Lt. at a prison now. A lot of gaming there. Even though dice are contraband.
Aaaahhh!
Hey LT!
*Not that I've really seen it made in this thread, but sometimes you get a poster that comes in all hot and bothered and thinks they are the only player in the over 25 age category and gives some condescending "you idiot kids don't understand how the game is really played" speech to the community, which, as mentioned above, is composed largely of 25+ persons.
I'd just like to say I'm 33 and I speak for everyone who is 33. I can say without a doubt that WotC is not targeting the 33 year old audience.
However I don't presume to speak for 32 and 34 year olds. For all I know 32 might be into the game, so WotC better hope not too many of them turn 33 by June!
*Not that I've really seen it made in this thread, but sometimes you get a poster that comes in all hot and bothered and thinks they are the only player in the over 25 age category and gives some condescending "you idiot kids don't understand how the game is really played" speech to the community, which, as mentioned above, is composed largely of 25+ persons.I'd just like to say I'm 33 and I speak for everyone who is 33. I can say without a doubt that WotC is not targeting the 33 year old audience.
However I don't presume to speak for 32 and 34 year olds. For all I know 32 might be into the game, so WotC better hope not too many of them turn 33 by June!
Nope. I'm 32 and turn 33 in July. I am giving them one month to earn my money before I turn 33 and then POOF! End of the road for them.:-)
I don't think the target demographic can easily be nailed down to an age range. In many ways, style of game play has become a defining factor in the interest around 4e. For example, many fans of Planescape are upset about the changes to planar cosmology and planar races. Other gamers see the changes a casting away a lot of "shared" history.
Even newer gamers can feel this way depending on the styles of campaigns they have played in or their own preferences of play. My girlfriend is a new gamer. She joined midway in my Planescape game. She really liked to long history of the game and how settings have developed overtime (I tend to draw upon previous campaigns). As a result, she is not happy about changes to game tradition in 4e. It does not help that she would have relearn game mechanics with 4e as well.
Personally, I hope 4e does well. I am not their target audience. I don't mind if the game has a more anime style that previous editions (if it goes that way). I don't mind some of the mechanics changes. I just feel that some of the changes to game history and attempts to create defined roles seems limiting and does not really fit with my play style (I may be wrong). Largely, however, is the fact that none of my players are switiching. I can run games in 3.5e. My planescape campaign lasted over 3 years and reached to Epic levels. As a result, I don't see the point of switching to 4e at this time.
Interestingly, had they not done a 3.5e and went straigh from 3.0e to 4e, I might be more likely to switch. 3.5e DID fix some of the problems with 3.0e. Without that fix, 4e might be an easier sell to both my players and me.
Nope. I'm 32 and turn 33 in July. I am giving them one month to earn my money before I turn 33 and then POOF! End of the road for them.:-)
Lucky you. :( I'm 40.
WOTC is actually seeking to have me turned into 4th Edition books, ala Logan's Run meets Solent Green.
;-)
Actually, I think that I am in the target market for 4E, and I'm closing in on 40 years of age. Yes, a lot of the design ideas are intended to bring in younger folks; but a lot of the emphasis is also on things that help out us older (umm, less-young?) people who have busy lives.
I know that when I was in high school and college, I had tons of free time to devote to gaming. I could afford to play a game that required a lot of work; and in my experience, a lot of people actually preferred their games that way - people who want the buy-in to their activity to be high, because that lets them be the "experts" over all the newbies. As role-playing games got more complex in the 80s and 90s, they really seemed to me to be marketing themselves to those sorts of people.
These days, I don't have anything remotely like the same kind of free time, and in my opinion, the design changes intended to make the game easier to run are aimed squarely at folks like me, with full-time jobs, families, and other responsibilities that leave us with relatively minimal free time.
Actually, I think that I am in the target market for 4E, and I'm closing in on 40 years of age. Yes, a lot of the design ideas are intended to bring in younger folks; but a lot of the emphasis is also on things that help out us older (umm, less-young?) people who have busy lives.
I know that when I was in high school and college, I had tons of free time to devote to gaming. I could afford to play a game that required a lot of work; and in my experience, a lot of people actually preferred their games that way - people who want the buy-in to their activity to be high, because that lets them be the "experts" over all the newbies. As role-playing games got more complex in the 80s and 90s, they really seemed to me to be marketing themselves to those sorts of people.
These days, I don't have anything remotely like the same kind of free time, and in my opinion, the design changes intended to make the game easier to run are aimed squarely at folks like me, with full-time jobs, families, and other responsibilities that leave us with relatively minimal free time.
That's an interesting serious point. I'm in a similiar position with free time, and I admit that is one of the attarctive elements about 4th edition for me.
There's also a substantial prison population according to Paizo.
Very true. The most gaming I've ever seen was in the military barracks.
Quite right on both counts, from what I've heard. And if you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. If the research says that people play role playing games most when they are in one place for a long time without a lot of options for entertainment, military bases and prison are quite logical places for people to play.
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Just to slip off topic in regards to RPG's and prisons:
Part of my duties as a Lt. in a prison is to run court when inmates commit disciplinary infractions. One time, as I was running court on an inmate he looked down on my desk and saw my Necromancer Games coffee mug. As I was reviewing his case he spoke up:
Him: You an RPG'er?
Me: *Looking up from my docket* Eh?
Him: Your mug, I noticed says Necromancer Games.
Me: Yes it does.
Him: I play too. I play 3e. Eberron Rocks! I love that world.
Me: Based on officer testimony I'm finding you guilty and giving you 30 days cell restriction, 30 days commissary restriction and suspending your contact visits for 2 weeks.
Pshhhh....Eberron. =P
Him: I play too. I play 3e. Eberron Rocks! I love that world.
Me: Based on officer testimony I'm finding you guilty and giving you 30 days cell restriction, 30 days commissary restriction and suspending your contact visits for 2 weeks.
Pshhhh....Eberron. =P
ROFLOL
Ahh.. You make me actually miss those days!
These days, I don't have anything remotely like the same kind of free time, and in my opinion, the design changes intended to make the game easier to run are aimed squarely at folks like me, with full-time jobs, families, and other responsibilities that leave us with relatively minimal free time.
I'd have to agree. The campaign I'm currently in has lost players and skipped meetings because of the kinds of real life developments that younger folks don't have, like increased job responsibilities, moving, and minor surgery. We're a gender-split group, including couples, all aged late-20s to mid-30s, and our lives are only likely to get more busy if/when we have kids.
And you'd have to consider the spread-out nature of post-school adult life. D&D typically requires that you have a pre-existing social group nearby to pull players/DMs from, like neighbors or classmates. When your "grown-up" friends live in other cities or just have long work commutes, finding the space/time for in-person get-togethers is a big deal.
If they come up with ways to get more play per game session or can approach some of the qualities of in-person play with an online platform, that probably ought to help a lot of would-be or used-to-be D&D players.
If you figure that folks in high school and college with free time, little money, and high reading scores who used to be the target group for D&D/RPGs-in-general now largely play computer RPGs and FPSs with their buddies, then it's only natural that WotC would shift their target to somebody else.
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That's an interesting serious point. I'm in a similiar position with free time, and I admit that is one of the attarctive elements about 4th edition for me.Actually, I think that I am in the target market for 4E, and I'm closing in on 40 years of age. Yes, a lot of the design ideas are intended to bring in younger folks; but a lot of the emphasis is also on things that help out us older (umm, less-young?) people who have busy lives.
I know that when I was in high school and college, I had tons of free time to devote to gaming. I could afford to play a game that required a lot of work; and in my experience, a lot of people actually preferred their games that way - people who want the buy-in to their activity to be high, because that lets them be the "experts" over all the newbies. As role-playing games got more complex in the 80s and 90s, they really seemed to me to be marketing themselves to those sorts of people.
These days, I don't have anything remotely like the same kind of free time, and in my opinion, the design changes intended to make the game easier to run are aimed squarely at folks like me, with full-time jobs, families, and other responsibilities that leave us with relatively minimal free time.
I'm in a similar position and the whole thing puts me off totally! Simpler? What sort of idiots do they think we are? I gave up basic D&D years back - before a red box! I'm not going back.
These days, I don't have anything remotely like the same kind of free time, and in my opinion, the design changes intended to make the game easier to run are aimed squarely at folks like me, with full-time jobs, families, and other responsibilities that leave us with relatively minimal free time.I'd have to agree. The campaign I'm currently in has lost players and skipped meetings because of the kinds of real life developments that younger folks don't have, like increased job responsibilities, moving, and minor surgery. We're a gender-split group, including couples, all aged late-20s to mid-30s, and our lives are only likely to get more busy if/when we have kids.
I think you guys are right. By making the game simpler to play, they help bring new players into the game and also help older players continue to play longer then they once would. Removing that huge up front time cost makes it easy to jump into the game if you're new, and it allows older players who no longer have the time for huge amounts of book keeping like they once did to continue playing. I know my personal life has become so busy now that I'm out of college and working full time that I've run only premade adventures for my group. The cost of Paizo's books is well worth the time I save.
And you'd have to consider the spread-out nature of post-school adult life. D&D typically requires that you have a pre-existing social group nearby to pull players/DMs from, like neighbors or classmates. When your "grown-up" friends live in other cities or just have long work commutes, finding the space/time for in-person get-togethers is a big deal.
If they come up with ways to get more play per game session or can approach some of the qualities of in-person play with an online platform, that probably ought to help a lot of would-be or used-to-be D&D players.
I have always seen the DI as an attempt to do this. I have friends who played with me in college, but have moved away from the rest of us in the last few years. It was quite sad to see them go, and it would be a lot of fun to play a few games in cyberspace so that my old friends can join in.
Plus, if Wizards is smart they'll put online character tracking software into their website. Then, a community like the RPGA could begin sactioning games online and we could see a huge amount of gaming oppertunites cropping up as gamers begin to connect and organize games over the net. If your regular friday night game got cancelled, you could hope online and join a sancition RPGA pickup game being run through the DI.
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I'm in a similar position and the whole thing puts me off totally! Simpler? What sort of idiots do they think we are?
LOL.
Some people do like system complexities.
That reminds me of the last town I lived in. I was talking to some gamers, one was a group of 3e'ers and the other was a group of Rifts players.
The 3e'ers were trying to get a few of the Rift guys to join them. The answer?
"Bah, we play Rifts. We're not interested in your "basic" RPGing for dummies."
Some people take pride in their enjoyment of convoluted systems.
I'm in a similar position and the whole thing puts me off totally! Simpler? What sort of idiots do they think we are? I gave up basic D&D years back - before a red box! I'm not going back.
Ah, but see the simplicity isn't about how smart you are. Trust me, the game is still going to take a serious amount of brain power to play. What they're changing is about how long it takes to learn to play the game at first, and how much time it takes to play a session.
I can understand your feelings on this subject though, sometimes I really enjoy spending hours and hours with graph paper building horribly complex dungeons, or filling out my specially made, 15 page character sheet that details out every single pocket my character has, right down to where I keep my whetstone. I'm notorious for it in my group actually.
I just don't feel that kind of attention to detail should be required to play the game. Perhaps as an expansion to the game yes, but not in the base rules. Course, that is one of the nice things about the 4E OGL. If you want to create a seriously details heavy versin of the rules, then you can do so and actually publish it for others to enjoy.
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Perhaps as an expansion to the game yes, but not in the base rules.
That's one of the things I found brilliant in the BECMI version of the game.
Take a look at the Rules Cyclopedia and you can see that "basic" D&D is anything but basic. It is a wonderfully in depth system with a lot of complexities.
However, with the release of the BECMI sets individually and introducing players to these complexities over several rule sets, most players found that all of these complexities were 2nd nature to them by the time they reached the upper levels of the game.
A brilliant way of doing it IMO.
Ah, but see the simplicity isn't about how smart you are. Trust me, the game is still going to take a serious amount of brain power to play. What they're changing is about how long it takes to learn to play the game at first, and how much time it takes to play a session.I can understand your feelings on this subject though, sometimes I really enjoy spending hours and hours with graph paper building horribly complex dungeons, or filling out my specially made, 15 page character sheet that details out every single pocket my character has, right down to where I keep my whetstone. I'm notorious for it in my group actually.
I just don't feel that kind of attention to detail should be required to play the game. Perhaps as an expansion to the game yes, but not in the base rules. Course, that is one of the nice things about the 4E OGL. If you want to create a seriously details heavy versin of the rules, then you can do so and actually publish it for others to enjoy.
I'm with Teiran. Right now, I do the attention to detail thing, and I run the so-called 'complex' system. So, I don't put myself in the dummy catagory.
However, the complex rules are there simulate and adjudicate a lot of different variables. That's why we have rules. The more rules, the more situations can be reconciled through comparison of values or randomizing. If they (WOTC) came up with a system that still provides a mechanical means to reconcile just as many of these variables- and it was quicker and simpler, I would be (and am) interested in seeing it. And I don't feel like I'm any less intelligent for that, just managing time and energy better.
And I do make fun of 4th edition sometimes, right here on this board. Nevertheless, there might be a better way of doing things.
I'm not sure, myself, about their target audience. I just know that I'm not one of them. There are many changes to the game that I don't like: getting rid of magic schools, getting rid of the Great Wheel, the inclusion of tieflings as a PC race, the "nuclear option" inflicted upon the Realms, just to name a few. ...
WOW those are three out four reasons I am looking forward to in 4th edition. I always liked the Great Wheel cosmology. I know I'm not the target demographic, but I am looking forward to 4e.
P>S> I like the new look. Ooooh dark, icey, cool!!!
I think the target audience should be obvious:
Anyone willing to shell out money for it. Preferably with a short attention span and deep wallet, but those are optional.
Actually, I think the latter is rather not optional.
BTW, 39 going on 40 in a few weeks, and I am definitely *not* in the target demographic for 4E.
How young do you have to be to be the target audience of 4th edition? I would have thought that age was not an issue, but from what I read, and from books like the Dungeon Survival Guide, I get the impression that its something targeted at 12 year olds.What age group do you think actually buys and plays this game the most? For my money, people in college/grad school would have been my guess... So where did my thinking go wrong?
It isn't that your thinking is wrong. My experience was high school on up for players stepping in. My daughters getting junior high kids who want her to DM, (she's 15). The high school teacher has an official after school D&D organization he has been running for a few years and a junior high school teacher is now doing the same. I live in a smaller (pop. 5000 or so) community with typical midwest conservative values. Things have changed. When I was in high school teachers pretty much didn't know what D&D was yet. Somewhere since, the people in our age category grew up and are now teaching it to their kids.
I reviewed the Dungeonneer's Survival Guide, I think personally I would go with age 8 for that particular book. The D&D novels of the iconcic 3rd edtion characters are about reading level age 10. The Dun. Sur. Guide was well below that.
There's also a substantial prison population according to Paizo.
I worked in a prison as security for 4 years in a medium facility. Gaming was a hidden but semi-popular form of entertainment. The particualr facility I worked at restricted D&D materials. The people in charge were uninformed and that that the term D&D referred to any roleplaying game. Had inmates attempted to have family members bring them gifts of say rolemaster, traveller, etc. the prison authroities would say it's D&D and confiscate it. They didn't even understand nor try to understand that these are roleplaying games, each with a distinct title and feel.
Some inmates made homemade games, the character sheets were quite similar to those found in D&D (home campaign). They made incredibly excelent dice out of paper, folded up to represent all the sides etc. including 20 sided dice. Notebooks filled with rules. monsters, etc.
When we would do cell searches we were required to remove the contraband and write the inmates up. When you'd do rounds and check in each cell they would listen for you coming, then hide the materials before you got to them. Obviously they weren't always successful.
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WOTC is nothing to me anymore. I neither care who they're targeting nor what becomes of them. They have wronged the game, a game they demonstrate not to understand.
Additionally, as I see the third party publishers bellying up to the sales bar I am reminded that in this historic moment, we have yet to hear anybody truly stand up to those ringlords and their so-called market research. I took one look at the recent realms article via the view printable version link and saw how they pissed away 20 years of tradition. Is imagination so scarce at WOTC that they had to f-up the realms too?
I was, however, pleased to see the mystery ad that ran in Wolfgang's Kobold Quarterly this month that portreyed the man shackled by 4E with the <i>3.5 will never die</i> tatoo on his arm. Regardless of the mystery company's intentions behind the ad, at least WOTC's crappy treatment of its customers and game history is not going un-noticed.
Some people take pride in their enjoyment of convoluted systems.
Hey, Sebastian! Can I jump in here?
Some people take pride in their enjoyment of convoluted systems.Hey, Sebastian! Can I jump in here?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!