This is what I'm talking about when it comes to my hatred for 4th Edition. Pure, total inconsistency with the "D&D Mythology" and changing things for the sake of change.
Now they're the magical link between elves and drow!? Just what we need, another race of elves...
What was wrong with eladrins before? Was it too hard of a concept for both the designers and the idiot-level customers they want to attract to learn and figure out that eladrins are celestials of the Upper Planes that represent the concepts and forces of Chaos aligned with Good?
Oh yeah, 4E isn't about learning, storytelling or . It's about how fast you can get to 30th level in a day. That's right. Almost forgot about that concept.
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Here is what I don't get - its all imaginary and yet people respond to WotC's changes to imaginary fluff as if that actually really matters in the really real world.
If you do not like it then ignore it, use your own imagination, and make up your own imaginary fluff.
It's a game. It's a game where imagination takes center stage and we all tell stories, roll dice, and have a good time.
It's just a game.
Why attempt to invalidate a concern? Tic-tac-toe is just a game.
The word just seems to connote that it isn't worth taking so seriously. I take this hobby, and that which affects and augments it, quite seriously. So do you, Crosswired... thus, you respond to many of the 4th edition threads. If they said the game of dominoes was getting a international rules overhaul, would you haunt the net to address each little facet of conversation?
Of course D&D isn't just a game.
Come, let us roll dice, eat gnome brisket and be merry.
4th edition will come and we'll see. Some facets will annoy and some will work. Some will embrace it and some will stick with older or other systems. What else can be said?
So are you suggesting that people under 25 are all idiots?
Advancement of xp is probably one of the easiest things to alter in the game. If you don't want players to get to level 30 quickly then just divide all your xp awards by whatever ammount will give you the advancement speed you are looking for. Or is too hard for "idot level old timers" to do that extra little bit of math?
Now as for the Eldarin, Elves, Drow business. I haven't seen the game yet, and don't know too much about how they will end up being portrayed in the new edition, so I choose to pass on running my mouth about something I have no accurate information on.
This is what I'm talking about when it comes to my hatred for 4th Edition. Pure, total inconsistency with the "D&D Mythology" and changing things for the sake of change.
Now they're the magical link between elves and drow!? Just what we need, another race of elves...
What was wrong with eladrins before? Was it too hard of a concept for both the designers and the idiot-level customers they want to attract to learn and figure out that eladrins are celestials of the Upper Planes that represent the concepts and forces of Chaos aligned with Good?
Oh yeah, 4E isn't about learning, storytelling or . It's about how fast you can get to 30th level in a day. That's right. Almost forgot about that concept.
Everyone under 121 is an idiot. Trust me.
Don't start some kind of ageist baiting.
Everyone under 121 is an idiot. Trust me.Not if you're over 40.
If you're over forty you're underwhelmed.
Well... now they're explicitly related to elves. That was always hinted at in 2E.
I like this fluff MORE than the old fluff. I liked the old fluff as well.
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Why attempt to invalidate a concern? Tic-tac-toe is just a game.
The word just seems to connote that it isn't worth taking so seriously. I take this hobby, and that which affects and augments it, quite seriously. So do you, Crosswired... thus, you respond to many of the 4th edition threads. If they said the game of dominoes was getting a international rules overhaul, would you haunt the net to address each little facet of conversation?
Of course D&D isn't just a game.
Come, let us roll dice, eat gnome brisket and be merry.
Yes, it is just a game.
WotC is just a game company.
To get so upset at them for making a new edition of a game says that the line between one's real life and the consumption of entertainment has blurred to the point where it has drifted from hobby to pathological displacement of emotion on to a freaking game.
4E did not kill anyone's dog. 4E did not break up anyone's family. 4E did not steal you car.
Dude - it is just a game.
Gaming is a hobby, we build a community around it, its the vehicle for social interaction. The game itself is just books, figures, dice, pen, and paper.
If you do not like WotC's game then pick a different one to play.
Its that easy.
If it is not that easy for folks then perhaps they should examine just how much emotion they have tied up in it and evaluate if it is healthy or not.
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Here is what I don't get - its all imaginary and yet people respond to WotC's changes to imaginary fluff as if that actually really matters in the really real world.
If you do not like it then ignore it, use your own imagination, and make up your own imaginary fluff.
Over the last forty years, I've invested a lot of time, energy, imagination and dollars to a gaming system. I've never agreed with every direction it had chosen to go, but it never strayed too far from it's humble beginnings. Then it decides, it's going to rewrite all materials for a brand new continuity and that I should come along because it's going to be so much better than it was before. Excuse me for being skeptical.
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Over the last forty years, I've invested a lot of time, energy, imagination and dollars to a gaming system. I've never agreed with every direction it had chosen to go, but it never strayed too far from it's humble beginnings. Then it decides, it's going to rewrite all materials for a brand new continuity and that I should come along because it's going to be so much better than it was before. Excuse me for being skeptical.
You have every right to be skeptical. This game could very well suck. But it won't suck because they changed the story of where elves come from. That you can change to be whatever you want.
Crosswired mind, you're acting trollish. (that's an edit)
Restating "it's just a game" after I clearly explained my meaning shows a kind of obstinacy toward reason that strips away my will to attempt to understand your point.
If it was just a game you wouldn't be jumping my sh!t for trying to reason to you. You went off on a hyberbole-laced rant about dogs getting killed. Did I invite that erratic reply? You suggest other people are too upset?
How dare you tell me when it is appropriate to be upset with anything in this world. You attempt to psychologically read the rest of us as being dysfunctional for caring about how the game changes? That's an silly argument you make, underfunded by anything save your rampant ire. America: love it or leave it, is what morons say, and you just told me that if I have any problems with the new edition I should play a different game.
Don't call me dude when you're dismissing my opinion. Call me dude when you're feeling friendly. It's snarky, like calling someone cheif, bub, captain, pal.
EDIT: BTW, I'm a game designer and I've written for D&D and other companies. There is no blurred line between entertainment and reality. This stuff matters very much to me, and for good reason. That isn't to say that people who don't design or write for the game have any less merit in their own feelings of dissappointment or caution.
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Or, you can stick with the system that uses the backstory as is and as you like it, thus saving time AND money. The more I hear this, the more confident I become that the next time I game, I won't have to download the 4e SRD and print out the PHB if I want to game, or wait until I can score a 4e phb at Half Price Books in August or something.
Meh....I'll just bum somebody else's PHB.
That's what I liked about 2e...if I got in on one of those games, not owning any 2e books other than a few Dungeon Magazines and a Planescape module impulse buy with a succubus demon on the cover, I could take my 1e phb along and pretty much be ready to roll with it.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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4E did not kill anyone's dog. 4E did not break up anyone's family. 4E did not steal you car.
How dare you! WotC did kill my dog - I posted that on another thread. And, ever since Razz got me to start wearing a tinfoil hat, I realized some other things they've been doing.
They used mind lasers to get my input about 4e when I used the Bo9S.
They built a time machine to go back to the founding of TSR and screw over Gary Gygax. I didn't believe Razz the first time he posted this, but now I see it's true.
They are printing books with addictive inks.
They are making the game dumber to lure us into complacency. That way, it'll be easier for the space rabbits to conquer us.
And, I must confess - for some time now WotC has been paying me to discredit posters like Razz. But now that my eyes are open, that stops!
Much as I like 3.5, if a 4th edition writing assignment comes my way I'll have to consider it.
One of the core ideas of 4.0 was that it would be easier to design for.
I mean, I'd script a videogame if someone would let me, and aren't videogames the true juggernaut rolling across the future of pen and paper RPG?
Hmm... I'm a whore... I see it all now so clearly. Anyone got an assignment? I'll write you cheap, baby. (said while scratching elbow nooks junkie-style) I'll write you all night long.
I'm sort of annoyed by this re-use of the eladrin name too. It's really just a high or grey elf, an elf good at magic.
Is the whole family of eladrin being nixed so it's name could be re-used? That remains to be seen, but I'm guessing yes, considering how little consideration is given to other canonical concepts of 3e and before.
But in the big scheme of thing, it's a rather small annoyance compared to some other instances of "same name, different thing". Topping this list for me are:
1) Non-Lawful Good paladin. The paladin's code defines the paladin, and it was all about being lawful and good.
2) Gruumsh and Correlon no longer being racial deities. If they aren't racial deities, the concept is not the same.
I was a bit upset to see Lisa Steven's detail how the the pen and paper RPG market was so seriously shrinking.
It made me realize the only way I can help personally is to go out there and recruit. It never occured to me before just how important that is. Kids look up to me (because I'm taller). I need to get out there and start something up.
Who's with me?!
::runs down the street naked ala OLD SCHOOL::
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Jade,
I am sorry that my post came off as snark. One of the things we gamers are accused of daily is our inability to separate reality from fantasy. Razz is just adding fuel to that stereotype fire.
I think its healthy for people to feel disappointed that a game they like changes to a game they do not like. But the comments on these boards go past disappointment.
I seriously worry that people seem so wrapped up in WotC hate that they have lost site of reality.
So in that spirit I still say - its just a game. Don't let it get you all worked up.
Cheers!
That's cool, my man. All good.
But everyone's worked up, so if this is just a game, it must be THE GREATEST GAME EVER DEVISED!
MWOOOOOOOO HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!
::outstreched arms summon twin reports of lightning, striking the peaks above him::
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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That's cool, my man. All good.
But everyone's worked up, so if this is just a game, it must be THE GREATEST GAME EVER DEVISED!
MWOOOOOOOO HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!
::outstreched arms summon twin reports of lightning, striking the peaks above him::
How are you posting if you are running down the street naked, Jade?
Laptop at the belly with velvet held by straps around the neck. I'm getting pretty good at typingg without typoeszsz.
Sorry... road bump.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Laptop at the belly with velvet held by straps around the neck. I'm getting pretty good at typingg without typoeszsz.
Sorry... road bump.
Okay, fair enough, but you quit with the arms in the air lightning summoning thing and cover up a little. And there's gotta be 30 inches of snow out there. What are you thinking?
Come on, guys. It's all in the name: Wizards of the Coast. We all know what Wizards do: they f~+# with your s$+*. This is an adventure opportunity, not a rules change. We have to start killing goblins and kobolds until we're powerful enough to get into their stronghold and keep them from messing with anyone else's s+@!.
Others will enjoy how they're doing things and seek to ally with the Wizards bloc.
New edition? Or best campaign ever?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Come on, guys. It's all in the name: Wizards of the Coast. We all know what Wizards do: they f!@~ with your s@@&. This is an adventure opportunity, not a rules change. We have to start killing goblins and kobolds until we're powerful enough to get into their stronghold and keep them from messing with anyone else's s@@&.
Others will enjoy how they're doing things and seek to ally with the Wizards bloc.
New edition? Or best campaign ever?
I thought Crosswired was exaggerating about people confusing fantasy with reality but James is arming himself and purchasing climbing tools.
Come on, guys. It's all in the name: Wizards of the Coast. We all know what Wizards do: they f#~* with your s##~. This is an adventure opportunity, not a rules change. We have to start killing goblins and kobolds until we're powerful enough to get into their stronghold and keep them from messing with anyone else's s##~.
Others will enjoy how they're doing things and seek to ally with the Wizards bloc.
New edition? Or best campaign ever?
Holy crap. That makes a hell of a lot of sense. ::rummages under bed for spare flail and dagger::
Okay, fair enough, but you quit with the arms in the air lightning summoning thing and cover up a little. And there's gotta be 30 inches of snow out there. What are you thinking?
Cover up? This beast? I'd have to conjure more arms.
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How are you posting if you are running down the street naked, Jade?That's cool, my man. All good.
But everyone's worked up, so if this is just a game, it must be THE GREATEST GAME EVER DEVISED!
MWOOOOOOOO HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!
::outstreched arms summon twin reports of lightning, striking the peaks above him::
That's the best time to post. Don't let it dangle in the dirt, bubba..to hell with qwerty, I'm typing with one........finger(?)
That's the best time to post. Don't let it dangle in the dirt, bubba..to hell with qwerty, I'm typing with one........finger(?)
Yeah, but I'm sick of having to replace my bashed-in keyboards.
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That's the best time to post. Don't let it dangle in the dirt, bubba..to hell with qwerty, I'm typing with one........finger(?)Yeah, but I'm sick of having to replace my bashed-in keyboards.
N00bs.
Real running the street nekkid posters don't even need a PC with them.
All the cool nekkid folks are Otaku/Technomancers.
Yeah! Write it on your PDA and it'll translate your handwriting.
Keyboards? So last century.
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Eladrin, High Elf, Silvanesti, whatever.
I have never been that concerned with the names. That doesn't really bother me.
I think in this particular case, whats more troubling is that Arborea is gone. However, I tend to play in the level 1-12 arena, so plan-hopping hasn't ever really been an issue. I can, however, see how that would be upsetting. But whether Elves are called Eladrins, Elves, or Elvis is really irrelevant.
Arborea still exists, just not in the Great Wheel configuration (at least officially).
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For me, I'm not a fan of Planescape or planar D&D at all. And what the hell with the celstial animals. I hate that.
Yeah. Can you imagine being a celestial badger ...
Hey Mrs. Badger! What's for dinner?
_summon spell starts_
Dear, you know the celestial monkies are coming over and I am making my banana pot pie.
_next round, summon resolves_
POOF!
Uh, honey? The monkies are good folk. Where did you go? The pub is closed you dolt!
_a few rounds later_
POOF!
GAWD DARN ORCS!
Got spittle all over me. And they taste like CRAP!
Honey, tell that nice druid to fend for himself next time. The holidays are busy enough as it is.
grumble grumble grumble
Yes, it is just a game.
WotC is just a game company.
To get so upset at them for making a new edition of a game says that the line between one's real life and the consumption of entertainment has blurred to the point where it has drifted from hobby to pathological displacement of emotion on to a freaking game.
Most insults are untrue. They are "just" words people through at you. But people do get upset.
Companies are supposed to value their customers. I have been told numerous times over the past several years by WotC that they value nme as a customer. They want to give me what I want. They value my business. Yet, over 4e, WotC continually acts like they aren't doing anything anyone should dislike. They refuse to ever admit older customers might not want this. They ignore or gloss over our concerns. I am left feeling simply not as valued, by someone not brave enough to admit that. That is insulting. Thus, I am insulted.
They suggest neither I nor my friends can manage a grapple rule without slowing down the game. That is insulting. Thus, I am insulted.
Erik has said more than once he expects to get rules "soon," but he doesn't seem to have them yet. That's insulting someone I respect. Thus, I am insulted.
The compnay, and its representatives, have been insulting. It doesn't matter what an insult is over. Disrespect me over a gmae, a pet, or the color of my sneakers, and I'll treat you with equal distain.
I may play 4e. But it will take considerable work for me to pay WotC for the right to do so. Used books will be available, or I can borrow friend's copies. But since they have insulted me, they don't get my business.
Paizo, however, I will at least support in flip mats or supplimentary decks, even if they go to 4d and I don't. because they have never insulted me.
"Dungeon Grrrl, you don't understand grappling!"
That Bill Salvicsek is always doing people down. And Chris Perkins... I saw him kick a puppy the other day. 'S true.
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Wizards is a corporate entity. It has a market. It has products to sell in that market. If it is smart then it pays attention to the desires of the market - not individual customers.
Sometimes markets shift. It happens all the time.
So when the market shifts it is possible that some consumers will be left behind.
What this all boils down to is that gaming is changing. Like it or not World of Warcraft is now the leader in fantasy gaming. Its 12 million plus subscribers are the market that Wizards will need to tap if it wants to complete shift away from pen and paper.
This means that the marketing plan needs to change. They are targeting a younger audience for whom snark and cool are the key emotional drivers.
This generational shift is going to leave some feeling out of place and even insulted.
It is not personal. That's business.
To the OP.
Not anymore, brother.
Like it or not World of Warcraft is now the leader in fantasy gaming. Its 12 million plus subscribers are the market that Wizards will need to tap if it wants to complete shift away from pen and paper.
Fine, then call 4e "World of Wizards" and make a pencil-and-paper WoW clone. Or actually get a competent computer game company to design a good MMO based on D&D. But don't take D&D, hack it to pieces, replace most of its systems with MMO-style mechanics, completely invalidate 30+ years of flavor and paradigms, call it "just a new version of the same game," and expect me to not get upset. It's not the same game, period.
I completely understand that WotC owns the right to the D&D name, so they can call 4e D&D if they wish. However, I retain my right as a consumer to judge a product on its merits, and greatly changing the content of a product while retaining the same name for "brand recognition" is a very risky move (New Coke?).
Maybe the tiefling kicking the badger are the new grappling rules? I'm thinking the video wasn't about the gnome being put out to pasture (sorry, I meant to say lair", and maybe it wasn't about the tiefling's cool new look or sick new powers....it was all about the grappling rules....maybe the badger rolled a 1....or maybe the tiefling rolled a 20. It's ok Dungeon Grrl...we know those rules are hard to follow....but now we have a visual display of how they work....so all is well.
If D&D is outdated then it is time that WOTC made a new game with a new title, not a new game with the old title. Sorry Crosswiredmind, I know what your saying but....I can't agree that WOTC is going about things the right way. I sincerely hope the game works for you however. I don't wish a bad rpg experience for anyone.
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If D&D is outdated then it is time that WOTC made a new game with a new title, not a new game with the old title. Sorry Crosswiredmind, I know what your saying but....I can't agree that WOTC is going about things the right way. I sincerely hope the game works for you however. I don't wish a bad rpg experience for anyone.
Oh I agree that they are not going about this the right way. After reading nearly every word of the Classes and Races preview I have a lot more faith in the changes that they are making.
Their marketing and communications kinda suck because the things i read were eye opening and encouraging and their teasers on the official site make it sound worse than it actually is.
However, the would be foolish not to use the D&D name. That is the most valuable asset they have. It's like any brand name - the product changes but the name lives on.
D&D is 30 years old and it shows. That is the heart of the problem.
Yes, you're right. Anything that's been around for 30 years is bad and needs to be changed. As someone who's under thirty (barely), I'm clearly right in this matter. Us "non-30'ers" must band together and execute a Logan's Run-style gathering and mercy-destruction... er... reimagining on anything older than 30 years old. Old school players, the game system, cars, flight, other games such as baseball and football, electricity, and indoor plumbing should be at the top of our list! They're all old and have problems! They need fixed and revamped and made "kewl" and then "retro-kewl"! We must hurry, I only have a few short years before I too must be flung into the revamper, torn asunder, and repackaged as "Warforged Goblin X-Treme!!!". To arms borths and sisters, to arms!
That sarcastically said, yes, changes must be made. But simply destroying a lot of what the game has been built on just seems... excessive.