Creative Director
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I just read the blog on the Harrow Deck being used in the 2nd AP.
Man does this sound awesome! I loved the way that in Ravenloft the Tarot deck helped decide the direction of the adventure.
I'm wondering if you guys can give any examples of how it's gonna work?
Oh man oh man oh man! :)
Eventually, yeah, we'll probably give examples on how it's going to work. Not quite yet though...
I have to say this excited me as well. Although I'll only be running Crimson Throne via Play by Post, I love the idea of a Tarot-like divination done in real life having an effect on the game.
I was under the impression that six payments from my subscription would give me an AP I can use. The idea of having to buy an odd deck of cards i'll never use for anything else just so that I can play the AP doesn't excite me at all.
It makes me feel cheated.
At the risk of sounding like a fanboi, what I've read into what has been said that use of the Harrow Deck is optional.
That is, every chapter allows you the "opportunity" to bring the Harrow Deck into play, but every chapter does not "mandate" that you do so.
I think you're projecting your fears concerning this product into making it more of a big deal than it actually is..
Having said that, because I am interested in the Harrow Deck, you could count me as biased I suppose.
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Each of Curse of the Crimson Throne's six adventures are also tied in theme to the six suits of the Harrow deck, and as you play through this new Adventure Path, Harrow deck readings can provide valuable insights, helpful bonuses, or even unexpected perils and dangers. You can expect to see some recurring themes throughout the Adventure Path tied to the Harrow deck, but we'll be going beyond that. Players will be able to select a feat, "Harrowed," that'll let them use draws from the deck to hopefully tip fortune in their favor. Visit a rough-and-tumble bar down on the waterfront in Korvosa and you'll be able to gamble away your treasure in a game of Towers...
Maybe you can play without it, but the deck sounds fully integrated (it'll take my players about five seconds after reading a feat like "harrowed" before they all pick it) and bitter experience suggests that I will be DMing a poor man's CotCT, both literally and metaphorically, if I don't shell out for the harrow deck.
Maybe I'm getting over-agitated, maybe not; perhaps a Paizo staff member could set me straight?
Maybe I'm getting over-agitated, maybe not; perhaps a Paizo staff member could set me straight?
Mike wrote this in another thread. He is the Brand Manager for Titanic Games, which worked on the Harrow Deck. Hopefully this will help.
Will this product be required to play through the second adventure path?We will have rules for playing without the published deck in Pathfinder #7. You may find it quite a bit less flavorful, but it can be done.
Also, there's nothing that limits the use of the deck to Pathfinder #7-12, or to campaigns set in the Pathfinder universe. As long as you're playing a fairly standard medieval fantasy RPG, you can use the Harrow deck in it. Most of the deck's Varisia-specific content will be found in the Pathfinder books, though.
Mike
SO, poor man's CotCT then... :(
Not meaning to detract from what the guy said but he was the head designer of the cards so his view on the thing may be slighly 'skewed' on their importance. I'm no official source but paizo did say you wouldn't need anything to run Pathfinder except the books and I hope they'll stick by that. I imagine they'll put in an alternative way to do it that'll be just as fun. I hope this mostly cause I don't currently plan on purchasing the Harrow deck either.
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Creative Director
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Not meaning to detract from what the guy said but he was the head designer of the cards so his view on the thing may be slighly 'skewed' on their importance. I'm no official source but paizo did say you wouldn't need anything to run Pathfinder except the books and I hope they'll stick by that. I imagine they'll put in an alternative way to do it that'll be just as fun. I hope this mostly cause I don't currently plan on purchasing the Harrow deck either.
SO, poor man's CotCT then... :(
Yes; Pathfinder #7 will have a mechanic that'll let you do a Harrow reading without the cards. It'll probably be nothing more than a bunch of dice rolling, so it'll be a bit less flavorful, but it'll work.
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I have to agree with the others, the only reason I'm getting the deck is since the art is from Kyle Hunter, which I like. But if it was from an artist that didn't tickle my fancy then I'd have the same feeling as GeraintElberon.
I don't like tying in other products, even if you do make them yourselves. If you want to make a tie in it should be optionable and not take away flavor but add it in a way that does not detract from others. Like optional rules in downloadable content instead of actual word sacrifice in the books itself.
Edit: I see that James Jacobs replied 9 seconds before me and already answered a concern and I am glad they're putting in optional rules so that everyone can do the harrow reading ^^
Paizo for the win :)
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Contributor
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I'm not really sure what the Harrow deck is gonna look like (as for card count and such), but would it not be possible for some people to just substitute a deck of playing cards?
Yes, I think that would possible.
edit: it's a 60 card deck. hmmmmm
To be clear: It's a 54-card deck. The extra 6 cards are helpful to the GM but they are not actually part of the deck.
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Creative Director
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I'm not really sure what the Harrow deck is gonna look like (as for card count and such), but would it not be possible for some people to just substitute a deck of playing cards?
Or even substituting GR's Deck of Many Things? That would be awesome!edit: it's a 60 card deck. hmmmmm
Yeah; like Mike said, it's actually a 54 card deck. In Pathfinder #7 we'll have SOME sort of chart/mechanic that'll let you "fake it" with dice or other types of cards, but I'm not sure how that'll work and it'll probably be a bit clunky, since Harrow has six suits of nine cards (as opposed to a poker deck which has four suits of 14, or a tarot deck which is really crazy...).
It'd be like using a deck of UNO cards to do at tarot reading though... it might work, but it'll lob missiles at the suspension of disbelief.
Yeah; like Mike said, it's actually a 54 card deck. In Pathfinder #7 we'll have SOME sort of chart/mechanic that'll let you "fake it" with dice or other types of cards, but I'm not sure how that'll work and it'll probably be a bit clunky, since Harrow has six suits of nine cards (as opposed to a poker deck which has four suits of 14, or a tarot deck which is really crazy...).
It'd be like using a deck of UNO cards to do at tarot reading though... it might work, but it'll lob missiles at the suspension of disbelief.
The most recent Blog entry is for the game of Towers right?
Will you be showing/writing an example of how the fortune telling aspect works? I'm really interested in that.
Thanks, Watcher!
We will have rules for playing without the published deck in Pathfinder #7. You may find it quite a bit less flavorful, but it can be done.SO, poor man's CotCT then... :(
Yeah, sounds like that to me, too. Not too impressed, especially when I see "clunky" and "less flavorful" being bandied around a lot.
This whole "Harrow" thing sounds more like a web enhancement to CotCT to me.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Please use a better box than the 3 Dragon Ante deck. That box's form factor is lame.
The Harrow box will be a lot like the Dragon's Trove box.
In Pathfinder #7 we'll have SOME sort of chart/mechanic that'll let you "fake it" with dice or other types of cards, but I'm not sure how that'll work and it'll probably be a bit clunky, since Harrow has six suits of nine cards (as opposed to a poker deck which has four suits of 14, or a tarot deck which is really crazy...).
James wrote that before he saw my giant white-board diagram of how the I-don't-have-a-Harrow-deck version will work, and he immediately struck the word "clunky" from his vocabulary. It's pretty sweet, actually.
But I'd still rather have a Harrow deck, because Kyle's art and James Davis's graphic design is, like, totally wicked awesome. When we showed it off to the playtesters recently, their tongues bugged out and their eyes hit the floor. Something like that, anyway.
Seriously, we wouldn't want to mandate the use of some other component. But that doesn't mean we don't want to add the possibility of a visually involving object when we can, assuming you want to pick it up. We think you'll like it.
Mike
The harrow deck looks interesting. You guys have me about 2 inches from getting a Chronicles subscription.
Sadly, it seems to me that if i give in Paizo just won't get my objection not having a skip option, because I_do_not_want to throw my money away on item cards I can't and won't use. See the "Chronicles subscription includes what" thread.
Will you be showing/writing an example of how the fortune telling aspect works? I'm really interested in that.
Teeuwynn is working on that as I write this. It'll be a week or so before that runs, I think. Stay tuned.
Mike
Thank you for the quick response! :)
Tey's description of the divination process ran on the Paizo blog today.
Mike