As of the most recent chat, something strange has happened with Golarion. Apparently the Great Old Ones are schedualed to visit. Not sure how I feel about this. I guess it's mainly how it's handled.
All I can think is YES!!!!! I pretty much slip the Great Old ones into Everything I run, World of Darkness, Greyhawk, M&M Cthuluh is a great taste that goes great with Everything :)
You'll all have to excuse James, he has a tendency to repeat himself. I'm sure you all already read his lengthy treatise on Lovecraft's pervasive influence on Dungeons & Dragons in Dragon #324, so you probably already know most of this.
<snip>(did you know that some tarantulas have poison hair they can flick at enemies?)<snip>
I did not know that. None of those kind live in California?? I fear spiders enough as it is. The ones that jump, hiss, and fall down from high places already give me the heebie jeebies. I hate it when one crawls out of my hat when I'm behind the wheel. *cringes*
You'll all have to excuse James, he has a tendency to repeat himself. I'm sure you all already read his lengthy treatise on Lovecraft's pervasive influence on Dungeons & Dragons in Dragon #324, so you probably already know most of this.
I love re-reading anything written well.
BTW, should you be having the day off to relax and rejuvenate with the turkey shakes and mashed potatoe sandwiches?? I know I'm enjoying my bowl of cranberry-gravy cereal myself.
Creative Director
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BTW, should you be having the day off to relax and rejuvenate with the turkey shakes and mashed potatoe sandwiches?? I know I'm enjoying my bowl of cranberry-gravy cereal myself.
Probably... but getting Pathfinder on track is more important. I DID take the day off yesterday, though, so that's a start! :) Now... BACK TO WORK!
BTW, should you be having the day off to relax and rejuvenate with the turkey shakes and mashed potatoe sandwiches?? I know I'm enjoying my bowl of cranberry-gravy cereal myself.
Envious! All I have left over is the SUPER SUGARY cake from the party James, Jason, me, and a bunch of the local orphans went to yesterday. And it still feels like my teeth are vibrating. 0_o
Sorry guys. Sorry. I keep promising myself not to go back here. *rubs temples* But there's this part of me that figures that maybe if I say it again clearly that folks might better understand where I'm coming from.
(By the way, "died a little inside"...I'm pretty sure that's my trademark if you lift it up and look underneath--or at least one of those pidgeon-wing/fly-wing sortsa' things. I used that long before I ever visited Paizo. If people start using goshawful this and goshawful that--that one's mine too. So let me know, yeah? "They got X in my Y" however is a pure Paizo meme. I use it with joy and much thanks to its inventors.)
Yeah, it's not that I'm anti Cthuhlu. Love the stuff. It's not that I think it's going to be the doorway to other cheesier crossover stuff, or that I really think people from Lovecraft Earth (to use Marvel jargon) are going to be showing up on Golarion. Most of that was rhetoric to illustrate my point.
Interestingly what I was really trying to get at was a lot less dramatic than any of that.
It's about what ties with what--remember, this said, I love Pathfinder and I'll go with wherever it goes--I really get two different ideas about how the Lovecraft stuff is going to get used. One I really really like. The other, which spawned this post, I emphatically don't.
Its all about where the stuff comes from. If it comes from our Earth, and bfloorphs its way between worlds to Golarion, then I hate it. If it's something native to Golarion like the Sandpoint Devil, or that lives in some awful plane beyond the planes like the Scarlet Walkers, then I love it.
Lovecraft critters teleporting in from Earth = Bleahgh!
Lovecraft critters native to the Golarion cosmology = Sweet!
That fix it?
...gosh I hope so...
That said, there are areas of our multiverse that fill the same role as the Far Realm; places where things are fundamentally different or wrong or insane. They aren't going to be one place (as in the Far Realm) but as many of these different places as we need.
This I love. This is great. So long as the stuff isn't teleporting in from New England somewhere....
I think I got that but had way too much zaniness in my own rendering.
I'm reminded of a scene in a Star Wars novel where the gang notices Lando Calrissean drinking this strange hot beverage. Lando mentions how he came across it on this out-of-the-way planet that referred to the beverage as 'hot chocolate.' I didn't want to cast the book in the septic tank, but it did seem to diminish the twinkle of that book for me.
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Creative Director
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Lovecraft critters teleporting in from Earth = Bleahgh!
Lovecraft critters native to the Golarion cosmology = Sweet!
That fix it?
...gosh I hope so...
Ah... I see what you're talking about. And I know why I wasn't able to figure out what you were worried about, because the concept of ANY critters teleporting to Golarion from Earth is just about as far from what I was thinking about as possible. That's not how medusaes or bats or humans got to Golarion, after all... why would it be any different for the Lovecraftian elements?
Certain parts of the mythos are tied inexorably to Earth, is all I was saying. The Mountains of Madness or R'lyeh won't be part of Golarion. Neither will the Necronomicon (although evil books certainly WILL be in Golarion).
When Lovecraftian elements are part of Golarion, they'll be so naturally and organically, in the same way as everything else in the world.
Chaosium has the license for using the copyrighted work of H. P. Lovecraft and some of his literary successors, so I doubt that we'll see a wholesale adoption of Lovecraftian creatures in Golarion. On the other hand, I'm looking forward to seeing more of Lovecraft's thematic elements surface in the setting.
The copyright on Lovecraft's works have expired- what Chaosium have are Trademarks on certain phrases and creations, but on the whole, most of Lovecraft's stories have quietly slipped into the Public Domain (hence Penguin and others doing collections). Where the line between such properties and those ring fenced by Chaosium lies, I have no idea, but I'm sure some investigation would sort it out.
In any case, Lovecraft himself was very loose and generous with people playing in his sandbox, so the revival of his works through CoC and others seems very proper and correct. I'm sure he would have approved.
WOO HOO! Okay, sweet! Yeah, that answers my question in a way that makes me a lot happier! Lots!
Yeah I got the impression that the critters that were trapped on Earth were going to have to stay--on Earth, while those that can zip between dimensions would be visiting Golarion. Ug. A lot of the responses didn't reassure me--"Wow this will be just like Wizard of Oz or Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe--but with tenticle headed goodness!" Blarg.
Happy to hear that the Lovecraftian beasties are adaptions. Very happy.
(did you know that some tarantulas have poison hair they can flick at enemies?)
As far as I know, It's not as much poisonous as irritating to the eye and skin. It's a defensive mechanism: The little eight-legged freak feels threatened, it rubs is ass (where the hairs reside), there's a spray of little hairs, your eyes and skinn feels like hell, the thing gets away.
I once saw a picture of a spider that overused this defensive mechanism. Should have called them "mooning spiders"
Wikipedia has some information about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urticating_hair
I'm reminded of a scene in a Star Wars novel where the gang notices Lando Calrissean drinking this strange hot beverage. Lando mentions how he came across it on this out-of-the-way planet that referred to the beverage as 'hot chocolate.' I didn't want to cast the book in the septic tank, but it did seem to diminish the twinkle of that book for me.
Exactly! See that's what I hate! Right there!
P.S. What's the name of that book--so I can torment my players with it? I have one guy in our group who really loves the expanded universe, and I love to mortify him whenever I can.
Should have called them "mooning spiders"
Or "pepperspray spiders"...
Lovecraft critters teleporting in from Earth = Bleahgh!Lovecraft critters native to the Golarion cosmology = Sweet!
They're not from Earth, anyway. The Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods are probably far older than Eart
The copyright on Lovecraft's works have expired- what Chaosium have are Trademarks on certain phrases and creations, but on the whole, most of Lovecraft's stories have quietly slipped into the Public Domain (hence Penguin and others doing collections). Where the line between such properties and those ring fenced by Chaosium lies, I have no idea, but I'm sure some investigation would sort it out.
I knew that there had been argument about some of Lovecraft's work; the copyright issues were unclear. Since he died in March of 1937, most of his work should be in the public domain. Some of his collaborative works and revisions may still be under copyright.
In any case, Lovecraft himself was very loose and generous with people playing in his sandbox, so the revival of his works through CoC and others seems very proper and correct. I'm sure he would have approved.
I certainly agree with you on that.
But...in the old D&D cartoon Venger pulled a F-16 from 1980 and a German Biplane from WW2 into Dungeons and Dragons, and was going to send the Germans the F-16 so they could win the war...all to keep those pesky kids off his lawn.
So all of a sudden, this stuff isn't canon??!??!?
I know how you guys love bringing back old nuggets like the rod of 7 parts, Muare Castle, etc...I was looking forward to when something similar would happen in Pathfinder, or if it wasn't planned, I would go ahead and update it for my eventual RPG superstar winning adventure.
They're not from Earth, anyway. The Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods are probably far older than Eart
True-true. But it's a lot easier to read and write than
Lovecraft critters teleporting in from the universe in which H.P. Lovecraft set his works of fiction--a cold bleak hopeless universe in the thrall of maddened alien incomprehensible horrors whose bronze thrones were already thick with the patina of ages back when Earth was but a roiling red hot ball of lava = Bleahgh!
So I just said Earth.
It's been ages, but I think it was possibly the Star Wars "The Thrawn Trilogy" by Timothy Zahn. Either that or the trilogy after that one with mention of the second death star.
Certain parts of the mythos are tied inexorably to Earth, is all I was saying. The Mountains of Madness or R'lyeh won't be part of Golarion. Neither will the Necronomicon (although evil books certainly WILL be in Golarion).
When Lovecraftian elements are part of Golarion, they'll be so naturally and organically, in the same way as everything else in the world.
So... does Golarion have a Dreamlands counterpart?
Obviously not Earth's Dreamlands, but it's implied that every inhabited planet in the waking world generates a Dreamland version -- the Moon, Saturn, Yuggoth...
...(did you know that some tarantulas have poison hair they can flick at enemies?)...I did, but I dont remember HOW I got there in Wikipedia to find out in the first place.
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Creative Director
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So... does Golarion have a Dreamlands counterpart?
Obviously not Earth's Dreamlands, but it's implied that every inhabited planet in the waking world generates a Dreamland version -- the Moon, Saturn, Yuggoth...
In my mind, yes. There is a Dreamlands counterpart to Golarion. Not sure if that'll ever get dovetailed into official canon, though.
hmmmm . . . so, Cthulhu shouldn't appear on Golarion, but his brother Kthanid (a Lumley creation) would be okay?
Interesting thread. Personally, I think there should be a number of distinctions. Obviously, anything that clearly ties to earth, such as "Jersey," should be a no-no. For individual creatures/entities, like Cthulhu, it should depend on whether there is a plausible explanation, such as interdimensional travel. So, for me, Cthulhu is okay, but King Kong wouldn't work. Cthulhu could make that trip, and just as the events unfolding on Golarion are in a different place, whose to say they're not unfolding in a different time, as well?
Oh, and did I mention I think this will all tie in w/ the third AP, what with the whole darkness rising theme and all? Oh, that's right I did - but let's see if the good folks at Paizo ignore it again.
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Creative Director
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hmmmm . . . so, Cthulhu shouldn't appear on Golarion, but his brother Kthanid (a Lumley creation) would be okay?
Interesting thread. Personally, I think there should be a number of distinctions. Obviously, anything that clearly ties to earth, such as "Jersey," should be a no-no. For individual creatures/entities, like Cthulhu, it should depend on whether there is a plausible explanation, such as interdimensional travel. So, for me, Cthulhu is okay, but King Kong wouldn't work. Cthulhu could make that trip, and just as the events unfolding on Golarion are in a different place, whose to say they're not unfolding in a different time, as well?Oh, and did I mention I think this will all tie in w/ the third AP, what with the whole darkness rising theme and all? Oh, that's write I did - but let's see if the good folks at Paizo ignore it again.
Kthanid is off limits, as is most all of Lumley's stuff, since that's not in public domain yet. And Kthanid's kind of a little too off-kilter for my mythos tastes anyway. :)
Cthulhu does not appear on Golarion. Not yet, at least. Although the marsh giants that will be appearing in Pathfinder 5 DO worship a god under the sea...
The third Adventure Path, Second Darkness, doesn't have much at all to do with the Lovecraft Mythos. Neither does Curse of the Crimson Throne. Although if the Lovecraftian elements we're putting into Rise of the Runelords end up being overwhelmingly popular... who can say what might manifest in future adventure paths?
Darn. But, speaking of that third AP, if it does have a drow/underdark vibe going on, I would suggest checking out the novel, "The Descent," by Jeff Long for flavor. A very fun read that takes on the whole mythological v. historical concept, with hell being discovered under our feet.
As an aside - Hi! I'm Bill, and for some reason, I've given up my lurker status.
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Creative Director
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Speaking of that third AP, if it does have a drow/underdark vibe going on, I would suggest checking out the novel, "The Descent," by Jeff Long for flavor. A very fun read that takes on the whole mythological v. historical concept, with hell being discovered under our feet.
As an aside - Hi! I'm Bill, and for some reason, I've given up my lurked status.
"The Descent" is one of my favorites; its first chapter is among the coolest/scariest things I've ever read. Even better, the sequel just came out! It's called "Deeper" and it's got some pretty awesome stuff going on. But yeah, this novel is HIGH on my list of what I want our Underdark to feel like. Another good place to go is the movie "The Descent," which is not related to Long's novel. A bad place to go is the video game "Descent" which isn't really about the underdark at all.
I agree with you on the movie, haven't played the game, and have been avoiding the sequel, Deeper, because I heard It wasn't up to par, but, I think it's time I checked it out anyway.
As an aside - Hi! I'm Bill, and for some reason, I've given up my lurker status.
Hi Bill. Welcome to the insanity of the Paizo boards. ~looks around at the padded room that I am in~ They give us really nice white jackets. Would you like one?
When Lovecraftian elements are part of Golarion, they'll be so naturally and organically, in the same way as everything else in the world.
Alas that poor Sehan cannot come to the party. "Non-WotC Worlds" rejoice! For you have been saved (for dessert). Sehan will have to content itself with dining on: Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Ravenloft, Mystara, Krynn, The Great Wheel, etc....
Yum.
GGG
Likewise, the Lovecraftian elements will, I hope, feel like a natural addition to the world. The first one we embrace is the hound of Tindalos (which is actually from an old Frank Belknap Long story) in Pathfinder 4. In a sidebar & in the foreword, I explain my Lovecraft in D&D theory a little: the mythos is a part of Golarion, but not an overwhelming part. Not all of the Lovecrafting creatures will be showing up; only the ones who could logically show up on Golarion will. Golarion is not Earth, and therefore themes and creatures tied to Earth won't appear in Golarion. This includes Cthulhu himself, since he's imprisoned under the sea.Yet other members of the club are noted dimension travelers (like the hounds) or live in the depths of outer space and can (and have) visit all manner of worlds in the universe. These are the ones who may be showing up now and then in Golarion.
In any event, Lovecraft is a LOT more present in D&D than a lot of people think. Sure, aboleths and mind flayers are obvious Lovecraftian homages, as are gods like Tharizdun and the Elder Elemental Eye. But there's more. The Underdark is in some part inspired by the Underworld of Earth's Dreamlands, I suspect (detailed most heavilly in Lovecraft's "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath"). Evil books that bring about bad things have been in D&D from the start also (Demonomicon, anyone?). And remember those tougher ghouls we know as ghasts? It would appear that Lovecraft invented them as well. At the very least, he was the one who came up with them as "tougher ghouls."
So yeah... Lovecraft's always been a part of D&D.
Just out of curiosity I asked Ed Greenwood and THO on the Candlekeep boards if the original Realms had any Mythos crossover, and THO described Ed's use of Mythos creatures in the Realms almost exactly the same way that James describes them in Golarion.
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Just out of curiosity I asked Ed Greenwood and THO on the Candlekeep boards if the original Realms had any Mythos crossover, and THO described Ed's use of Mythos creatures in the Realms almost exactly the same way that James describes them in Golarion.
Doesn't surprise me; great minds think alike.
I'm happy with the Cthulhoid elements in Pathfinder 1, and I'm happy to hear that they won't be in EVERY adventure path.
In Pathfinder 1 we took the Jersey Devil and turned it into the Sandpoint Devil.
Damn... I'm a huge New Jersey Devils fan and I missed that awesome twist. That will definetly change they way I'll run the bestie.
Just out of curiosity I asked Ed Greenwood and THO on the Candlekeep boards if the original Realms had any Mythos crossover, and THO described Ed's use of Mythos creatures in the Realms almost exactly the same way that James describes them in Golarion.
You ever notice how you never see posts by Ed Greenwood, and James Jacobs in the same forum at the same time?
Hmmm....
GGG
Hi Bill. Welcome to the insanity of the Paizo boards. ~looks around at the padded room that I am in~ They give us really nice white jackets. Would you like one?
As an aside - Hi! I'm Bill, and for some reason, I've given up my lurker status.
Thanks, Sharoth. To tell the truth, I've been here quite awhile; it's just that the nice young men in their clean white coats (they're coming to take me away, ha! ha! hee! hee!) haven't yet noticed that I stopped taking my meds.
They give us really nice white jackets. Would you like one?
YAY! It's "self-hug" time! All day, ALL DAY!
*ahem* Back to the "serious" nature of the thread, the fact the Lovecraftian monstrosities will be showing up in Golarion makes me inordant- inoordinate- supremely happy. I'm going to have re-read the Lovecraft story with the Hounds so I can get innately familiar with their abilities. My poor Pcs...
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Creative Director
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They give us really nice white jackets. Would you like one?YAY! It's "self-hug" time! All day, ALL DAY!
*ahem* Back to the "serious" nature of the thread, the fact the Lovecraftian monstrosities will be showing up in Golarion makes me inordant- inoordinate- supremely happy. I'm going to have re-read the Lovecraft story with the Hounds so I can get innately familiar with their abilities. My poor Pcs...
Lovecraft actually didn't invent the hounds... it was Frank Belknap Long who did, in a story called "The Hounds of Tindalos." And their abilities are pretty vague in the story... apart from being able to time travel through angles. That's pretty much the only power a monster really needs though! :)
*HERE* are quite a few Lovecraft stories.
You should try to memorize most of them. And, there is a hidden code embedded in Lovecraft's work that, if unlocked, will make all your wildest dreams come true! :-)
Lovecraft actually didn't invent the hounds... it was Frank Belknap Long who did, in a story called "The Hounds of Tindalos." And their abilities are pretty vague in the story... apart from being able to time travel through angles. That's pretty much the only power a monster really needs though! :)
Y'know that's one thing I've noticed from reading all the 3.x monster manuals and stuff. It seems like sometimes monsters get over-designed. They get too many powers. Everything that flies seems to have droning wings that daze people. Everything that roars has to have a sonic roar that blows stuff up. Everything beefy can hit the ground and cause a shockwave. Anything remotely scary-looking has an aura of fear.
Can't something just fly anymore? It seems like if something doesn't have at least five marginally connected supernatural abilities that it's not a real monster. The trouble is that when you do that with everything, it really kind of reduces the cool of the creatures that are meant to have it--because now everything does.
In my mind, yes. There is a Dreamlands counterpart to Golarion. Not sure if that'll ever get dovetailed into official canon, though.
Nifty. I wonder what it's like, considering how much more fantastic Earth's Dreamlands are than the waking world, and considering how fantastic waking-Golarion is to start with... :)
