OMG!!! Grapple Sucks!!! We Need a New Edition to fix Grapple!!!!
OMG!!! Power Attack Sucks too!!! How dare I do basic addition at the gaming table!?! We desperately need a new edition right this very second to fix this blight on our game!!!
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If they wanted to give some real reasons for getting rid of it (maybe as is it would make 4e fighters too powerful) that would have been fine. We get yet another fine example of WotC's way of communicating with us.
Personally, I never had a problem with it in 3e. I can see where a two-handed weapon with full power attack used at 15th level would cause a LOT of damage, but hitting the AC's at that level at -15 to hit is a tall order to begin with. Choosing the right value to optimize hit percentage with damage output made for a minor arithmetic exercise, but if it slowed down the table, the player could just get pummeled a little and be forced to pick a number.
That was NOT what bogged me down. 0.o
OMG!!! Power Attack Sucks too!!! How dare I do basic addition at the gaming table!?!
Don't forget there is subtraction too! You need to reduce the attack bonus.
Odd really that such complex concepts as basic maths requires comment at Gleemax. Does this mean that kids today require a calculator to add and subtract?
I am now tempted to invent an RPG that uses 'Log Tables', just to freak the kids out.
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OMG!!! Power Attack Sucks too!!! How dare I do basic addition at the gaming table!?!Don't forget there is subtraction too! You need to reduce the attack bonus.
Odd really that such complex concepts as basic maths requires comment at Gleemax. Does this mean that kids today require a calculator to add and subtract?
I am now tempted to invent an RPG that uses 'Log Tables', just to freak the kids out.
Make 'em all use Z-scores for 1-handed weapon damage output and T-scores for the 2-handers. That'll show them.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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We have kids who can't make chage by hand now a days.
i never found PA that daunting. We did have a player who had all his to hits and damages written out, so he could just tag what power attack did to each.
I find it funny that for the free game day the Paladin had Power attack, and was pretty devistating with it in the right circumstances.
I've got it. It's D&D for Barbie! "Math is hard."
They're dumbing down the game to widen the audience.
We have kids who can't make chage by hand now a days.
That's always been that way. Hell, boomers thought my generation was the worst generation that ever walked the face of the earth back when I was a kid. But Gamers are suppose to be a tad smarter then the average dumb a$$ american that believes 24 is real (for the record, I'm an American and a Gen-Xer and I know that 24 is as real as Puff the Magic Dragon).
Anybody have a link for this info?
- Ashavan
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It really isn't like that at all.
What Tweet is saying is that the feat doesn't provide either the crunch effect or the fluff effect that it is supposed to emulate. I always take it as the precursor to other feats, and rarely use it.
It has nothing to do with a generational difference or a marketing ploy. Who would such a ploy be aimed at? If you don't already play D&D, power attack will mean nothing to you.
Tweet is an extremely competent and experienced game designer - he's using humour to illuminate what might otherwise be a rather dry write-up.
We have kids who can't make chage by hand now a days.
Ummm.... We have kids that can't make change when the register tells them how.
Have you seen the registers that "spit" the coin change out to you, while the cashier only has to worry about the paper bills?
We have kids who can't make chage by hand now a days.Ummm.... We have kids that can't make change when the register tells them how.
Have you seen the registers that "spit" the coin change out to you, while the cashier only has to worry about the paper bills?
Now, now no need to generalize. It's not "kids" or "young'ns" or "teens" or "generation y" or ... you get the point. Specific examples not generalizations.
Does this mean that kids today require a calculator to add and subtract?
In my experience as a professor at a few differnet universities, YES. Don't get me started on the cashier who accidentally hit 500.00 instead of 50.00 and grabbed a calculator, or the guy who told her the right amount, but then exclaimed "Yes!" when the calculator confirmed his answer. Just taking a look at the freshman/sophomore population in a science class at a fairly prestigious university reveals that a very large percentage of them are uncomfortable with basic math.
I do not believe that these "kids" are dumber than older generations; I believe arithmetic is under-emphasized, often by elementary school teachers who hated math themselves. I could expatiate at length on teh problems with training our teachers, but I don't want to threadjack (too much).
Yeah, "math is hard".
I like the comments on Gleemax about how hard was it to calculate Power Attack vs THAC0, lol
Seriously, how much did this slow your table down? Its simple addition/subtraction with single digit numbers.
If the player has problems with this, how did they add their attack bonus to the dice roll?
It's not the mathematics that is the problem (although the spreadsheets that have proliferated about which is the best number to use against a certain AC would appear to weigh against this view). it's that for a piddling, and annoying mechanic, it's benefits are few. It doesn't really reflect in an exciting way the wild swing of power that it's supposed to.
Also it has the effect of making one powerful combat style (two-handed - already does 1.5 damage) moreso.
Unless you are a mathematician trying to statistically optimize your character (at which point you would loose your turn if you were taking too long) this is not a problem. It is so inconsequential I will just cross the text out in the book and put a reference to the 3.5 feat.
And I think the feat handles crunch and flavor just fine. Your character is trying to make as powerful an attack as he can and is putting all of his effort into hurting the person, so what would you expect, that the character is not as accurate, but does more damage. Hmmmm, that is exactly how the feat works. I don't see any problems. Unless that is not what Power Attack was intended to mean then yes you could say it doesn't work. Description of the attack is up to the player/DM not the rules.
I would prefer WotC just come out and tell us what they're doing with Power Attack rather than hemhawing around with "possible fixes" to Power Attack and complaining about how difficult it used to be... Classic WotC way to handle this announcement..
FabesMinis, you are trying to defend the change to the "Dreaded Power Attack," and I commend your efforts.
But if you haven't caught on yet, most of the posters in this thread don't have any problems with the current Power Attack feat.
On top of that, all of the perceived "problems" with Power Attack are not going to be fixed by making it a static bonus.
And finally, there are much more glaring "lack-luster" feats that should be addressed before you even think about dressing down a feat that pretty much works as written. (I am looking at you, Dodge.)
It's not the mathematics that is the problem (although the spreadsheets that have proliferated about which is the best number to use against a certain AC would appear to weigh against this view). it's that for a piddling, and annoying mechanic, it's benefits are few. It doesn't really reflect in an exciting way the wild swing of power that it's supposed to.
Also it has the effect of making one powerful combat style (two-handed - already does 1.5 damage) moreso.
Ummmmm, what kind of benefits should it have beyond doing more damage and being less accurate and isn't the description of the action up to the player/DM? Also, how hard is it to change the damage for two-handed weapons back to 1.5x damage?
I am not sure what people are looking for this feat to do beyond what it already does. I mean, if it made Pumpkin Spice coffee and cinnamon scones for me as well that would be awesome but I am not holding my breath.
Now, now no need to generalize. It's not "kids" or "young'ns" or "teens" or "generation y" or ... you get the point. Specific examples not generalizations.
Fair enough. I was using the language of the post I referenced. But you are correct. I am certain there are just as many, if not more, adults that have the same problem. Only thing is, I never see them behind a register.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Now, now no need to generalize. It's not "kids" or "young'ns" or "teens" or "generation y" or ... you get the point. Specific examples not generalizations.Fair enough. I was using the language of the post I referenced. But you are correct. I am certain there are just as many, if not more, adults that have the same problem. Only thing is, I never see them behind a register.
They're all accountants in the sub-prime industry. *ducks*
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Does this mean that kids today require a calculator to add and subtract?In my experience as a professor at a few differnet universities, YES. Don't get me started on the cashier who accidentally hit 500.00 instead of 50.00 and grabbed a calculator, or the guy who told her the right amount, but then exclaimed "Yes!" when the calculator confirmed his answer. Just taking a look at the freshman/sophomore population in a science class at a fairly prestigious university reveals that a very large percentage of them are uncomfortable with basic math.
I do not believe that these "kids" are dumber than older generations; I believe arithmetic is under-emphasized, often by elementary school teachers who hated math themselves. I could expatiate at length on teh problems with training our teachers, but I don't want to threadjack (too much).
Yeah, "math is hard".
Yay! A kids these days rant!!! Woot!!!
Get off my lawn you bastards!!!
(Semi-seriously though, I do agree with the basic problem, but I can't say I belong to an exempt generation. In undergrad, my econ prof once lamented that when he began teaching, he could count on every single student knowing calculus, and that he could no longer make such an assumption. I also think that the current system doesn't emphasize rote memorization enough. That probably sounds like a funny thing to say, but it is a useful skill and serves as a fundamental building block for the ability to reason without reference to outside materials, but modern education assumes that outside materials are always available for reference. But who knows, maybe rote memorization doesn't make sense anymore.)
*cough*
Where was I? Oh yeah!
GET OFF MY LAWN YOU BASTARDS!!!
(also, did you intentionally misspell "the" in your post, because that's hilarious in the context.) ;-)
We have kids who can't make chage by hand now a days.Ummm.... We have kids that can't make change when the register tells them how.
Have you seen the registers that "spit" the coin change out to you, while the cashier only has to worry about the paper bills?
I loved those things as a kid... but now realize what they represent...
but the kid in me still loves them.
I'm puzzled. What's so bad about it that it needs to be fixed?
When I was a freshman or sophomore at Rutgers University they banned calculators on all math exams and most of the science/engineering/cs exams. You could use them in class but if you were caught with one at the exam you automatically failed the class. It was great.
Most of my professors also banner cell phones at exams unless you notified him/her ahead of time that you had to have it on you for a good reason.
Here goes my unpopular opinion on Power Attack and D&D math complexities in general:
1) Power Attack is too good in 3.5, and even better in Star Wars Saga Edition. Thats not to say its game breaking, just that any fighter worth their salt has to wield their weapon two-handed to do any real appreciable damage. This can be fixed via house rule obviously, but is beyond the scope of the thread.
2) D&D math IS overly complex. If you don’t believe me, you haven’t played in our power-gaming munchkinizing gaming group. Take my 12th level paladin for example:
Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Bulls Strength
Bears Endurance
Divine Favor
Magic Weapon
Smite Evil
These are just a few of the characters combat options/abilities; there are others I’m sure I’m forgetting. Add these up in your head during the course of a battle. Now get poisoned, level-drained, ability drained, penalties, and outside bonuses and figure out your abilities. At 2:00 a.m.
Playing this character without the benefit of Excel is not impossible, just impractical, and not fun at all.
And by the way, I was the last to give in to the spreadsheet at our gaming table. It’s the other players, far more savvy in character builds (routinely abusing the intent of the rules), that went to this format in the first place due to ongoing spells affects thanks to abilities like Persist Spell (which by the way is broken as hell).
though any game though is going to get complex if variable temperary modifiers are used.
Roll a 10
+2 magic bonus
-1 pain negative
+4 aim bonus
-2 ungly negative
x.75 for firing both barrels of a double barrel shotgun
=10 (round up if above .5)
Now for another random example:
Wait... why do I do this to you. But more importantly why do I do this to ME. whaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!
-2 ungly negative
I'm not sure why I like this so much.
Ungly will be my adjective of choice today.
Yay! A kids these days rant!!! Woot!!!
Um, I did write kids parenthetically, as a reference to the earlier comment about kids, and specifically to indicate that the post was not about "those damn kids". In fact, the kids part in my post specifically refers to students, both secondary and university, who are, in my opinion, being robbed by their underqualified teachers. Note too that that is a gross generalization as I recognize there are numerous excellent teachers at all levels. However, there is an endemic problem in the approach to training teachers in the United States, which I would be happy to debate, but perhaps not by jacking this thread. Is that a sufficiently lawyerly response for you? ;)
(also, did you intentionally misspell "the" in your post, because that's hilarious in the context.) ;-)
I wish I did, but that is my most common typo, rivaled only by "nad" for and, also funny in anatomical posts. I almost wish I taught on-line courses, since I also seem to have mispelled different as differnet universities.
Edit: fixed "teh" again...
From what I've been hearing, Power Attack was only there to increase damage, right (been a LONG time since I read through that section...)?
There's NO NEED for it under 4e - EVERYONE gets damage increases based on level (at least from what I've heard from people who claim to have seen playtest material or who are reading between the lines on the WOTC boards). Apparently, fighters get a faster increase but EVERYONE gets one, essentially Power Attack is a feature for all classes, and one that gets better as you advance in level...
If this is true my 14th level woodcutter is going to kick ass in 4E. Imagine the piles of wood he will be able to produce.
Each level each chop more powerful more effective.MaWhaHAHAHAHA he shall rule the world... with his reasonably priced firewood empire!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Yay! A kids these days rant!!! Woot!!!Um, I did write kids parenthetically, as a reference to the earlier comment about kids, and specifically to indicate that the post was not about "those damn kids". In fact, the kids part in my post specifically refers to students, both secondary and university, who are, in my opinion, being robbed by their underqualified teachers. Note too that that is a gross generalization as I recognize there are numerous excellent teachers at all levels. However, there is an endemic problem in the approach to training teachers in the United States, which I would be happy to debate, but perhaps not by jacking this thread. Is that a sufficiently lawyerly response for you? ;)
Yeah, but if they were on your lawn, you'd have the same level of anger towards them that I...
hold on one second...
G@$!!+NIT! YOU KIDS GET THE HELL OFF MY LAWN RIGHT NOW!!!
Sorry about that. Anyway I...
godamnit...I've got to get my shotgun. I'll be back.
(I don't actually have much to add to an actual debate of the subject, and it risks becoming polarizing due to the nature of the content, I just wanted to slip in my comment above. And I did notice the quotes, I just really do like to rant about kids these days, because I am old and crotchety. Also, your response was insufficiently lawyerly in that I could understand it. The language of the law should be incomprehensible and riddled with obsfucation!)
The damage boost based on level may be pulled from Star Wars Saga where they did away with multiple attacks, so it is possible.
As to Power Attack, I can see the sliding scale being a pain. I have only had one player ever use it regularly. As a result, I can see a flat penalty for a flat bonus being fine. I don't care for Tweet's comment for Power Attack should be "always on" as that would make it less useful in my opinion.
Lastly, I taught drafting at a junior college for a while. You would be surprised at the number of people I had to teach how to read a ruler, let alone the basics of the metric system.
...
But Power Attack is painfully simple. 0.o
-The Gneech
Lastly, I taught drafting at a junior college for a while. You would be surprised at the number of people I had to teach how to read a ruler, let alone the basics of the metric system.
Lousy metric system. I think it is just computers trying to pull a fast one over us. Everythin factors of 10. Whats 10's? 1's & 0's I tell ya. Bin-ary.
I don't understand why the idea of making something simpler would be the same as "dumbing it down" and, therefore, take on a negative connotation. I strive everyday to make my life simpler. Just because I know a level of calculus, as example, doesn't mean I wanna do it while I'm playing a game.
I had a player that kept a sheet with his fighter that listed his modifiers for power attack depending on how much he allotted to it and how many hands he used. Is he dumb? He almost has his PhD in chemistry and knows very high level maths. It just made his life easier to quickly reference that sheet AND sped up play.
AFAIC, anything that makes my life easier and, therefore, lets me play more D&D gets a thumbs up from me.
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Lousy metric system. I think it is just computers trying to pull a fast one over us. Everythin factors of 10. Whats 10's? 1's & 0's I tell ya. Bin-ary.Lastly, I taught drafting at a junior college for a while. You would be surprised at the number of people I had to teach how to read a ruler, let alone the basics of the metric system.
Let's go base prime to stick it to the inorg's! Stupid inorgs without any ability to think abstractly. Just KILL KILL KILL....
Threadjack alert!
The language of the law should be incomprehensible and riddled with obsfucation!
I knew it! Lawyers and bureaucrats producing laws are Malkavians! Incomprehensible and riddled with obfuscation! Now it finally makes no sense to me!
Ahem. Back to your regular WotC-bashing thread.
Stefan
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Threadjack alert!
The language of the law should be incomprehensible and riddled with obsfucation!I knew it! Lawyers and bureaucrats producing laws are Malkavians! Incomprehensible and riddled with obfuscation! Now it finally makes no sense to me!
Ahem. Back to your regular WotC-bashing thread.
Stefan
And don't forget the Dementation
Threadjack alert!
The language of the law should be incomprehensible and riddled with obsfucation!I knew it! Lawyers and bureaucrats producing laws are Malkavians! Incomprehensible and riddled with obfuscation! Now it finally makes no sense to me!
Ahem. Back to your regular WotC-bashing thread.
Stefan
I don't see any pinatas...
And don't forget the DementationThreadjack alert!
The language of the law should be incomprehensible and riddled with obsfucation!I knew it! Lawyers and bureaucrats producing laws are Malkavians! Incomprehensible and riddled with obfuscation! Now it finally makes no sense to me!
Ahem. Back to your regular WotC-bashing thread.
Stefan
Well, implying that lawyers are sabbat on top of being malkavians is not nice...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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deClench,
I think what got me about the article was it does come across as 'Math is hard.'
And it's more of the meme "3.5 sucks, but 4.0 is going to rock! Trust us!"
In his article we have:
Bashing of 3.x mechanics
"Power Attack, I disown thee! Foul deceiver! False friend! Vile tempter!"
If only it was cooler or simpler:
"A better feat that would fit the flavor would give you a fixed attack penalty and damage bonus, so that using it becomes a simple either/or toggle rather than a sliding numeric effect."
And then the example of how the mechanic will work with a 4.0 demonstration.
*crickets*
Power attack never slowed me down. Remembering that stupid bardic music bonus was harder, because it wasn't my action.
Maybe 4th will get rid of summoning? After all if Power attack "You offered wild, barbaric swings, but you bogged us down with attempts to maximize average damage" Then surely flipping through the Summon monster stuff slows us down even more.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well, implying that lawyers are sabbat on top of being malkavians is not nice...
And don't forget the Dementation
Nah, they all have it. Though Die'dre Brooks summed it up best. "If you can't drive them crazy without resorting to Disciplines, you're not a real Malk."
Nah, they all have it. Though Die'dre Brooks summed it up best. "If you can't drive them crazy without resorting to Disciplines, you're not a real Malk."Well, implying that lawyers are sabbat on top of being malkavians is not nice...
And don't forget the Dementation
Heh. Sure they have. I played a Malkavian Elder in our LARP chronicle a few times, I should know :-) (Yes, you can ridicule me now for playing Vampire LARP). And you don´t need disciplines for driving others crazy - its unsporting. Whats the challenge in that?
Stefan
Nah, they all have it. Though Die'dre Brooks summed it up best. "If you can't drive them crazy without resorting to Disciplines, you're not a real Malk."Well, implying that lawyers are sabbat on top of being malkavians is not nice...
And don't forget the DementationHeh. Sure they have. I played a Malkavian Elder in our LARP chronicle a few times, I should know :-) (Yes, you can ridicule me now for playing Vampire LARP). And you don´t need disciplines for driving others crazy - its unsporting. Whats the challenge in that?
Stefan
Are puns and off key singing disciplines?
Are puns and off key singing disciplines?
If you plague Toreador with it, that might qualify.