I can take a hill Giant CR 7
Add 12 levels of cleric and since these are Nonassociated Class Levels only increase his CR to a 10
Then with this cleric I cast
Righteous Might and Divine power
Changing me to haveing these stats
being Huge
Str 35
Hp 24d8 plus 124 plus 12
Base Attack 21 so i get 5 attacks a round
is this right for the CR or where am i wrong?
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I can take a hill Giant CR 7
Add 12 levels of cleric and since these are Nonassociated Class Levels only increase his CR to a 10
I'll look up Righteous Might and Divine Power in a minute...
Adding 12 levels of cleric increases the CR by 6 -- so now we are at a CR of 13.
This is give or take and not necessarily an exact science. Especially (IMO) with regards to cleric classes being 'nonassociated'. They gain a decent to hit bonus, decent hit die, they get some pretty kick butt spells, they get some nice proficiencies and so on. Doesn't feel terribly non-associated to me.
In addition, I may need to double-check this, but since you are over 20 HD, you might be subject to the epic rules regarding additional attacks a round, saves and to hit bonuses, etc.
As a monster, a Hill Giant Cleric 10 is CR 12 (7 + (1/2 * 10).
I know that for players im looking at this for a monster
so how did you get 1/2 *10?
This is what i found to be writen
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.
And of course i will be upping his Wisdom
Contributor
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I would not rule cleric as nonassociated for Hill Giants, as it does play to the giant's strengths. None of the benefits are disconnected or useless or related to significant penalties that hill giants suffer. If they had a significant wisdom penalty that would cripple their spellcasting or something, then sure, but as it sits every aspect of the cleric class counts as a solid benefit to the monster.
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so how did you get 1/2 *10?
This is what i found to be writen
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.
First of all, simply increasing stats significantly probably increases the CR just with that alone.
I guess that I'm not sure how you came up with your figure. You start with 12 HD of giant and a CR of 7. Each nonassociated class leve increases the CR by 1/2. So a 1st level cleric hill giant would have a CR of 7.5. A 2nd level cleric hill giant would have a CR of 8. And so on up to a 12th level cleric hill giant having a CR of 13. After that each class level would be a 1 to 1 ratio so a 13th level cleric hill giant has a CR of 14. (Assuming that cleric is a nonassociated class.)
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being Huge
Str 35
Hp 24d8 plus 124 plus 12
Base Attack 21 so i get 5 attacks a round
As near as I can figure out ...
Base Str = 25
Divine power gives +6 to Str and gives the BAB of 24.
Righteous Might gives +8 to Str.
So we are now looking at a 39 Str. Huge size (-2 to hit and AC).
So 24 BAB + 14 Str - 2 Size = +36/+31/+26/+21/+16 to hit.
Hit points --
24d8.
Base Con 19 + 4 (Righteous Might) = 23 Con = 144 HP
+12 HP for Divine Power
Grand total of 24d8 + 156 hp (256 average).
Each of these is 1 round/level -- so the players should stay out of reach for a while and then move in again to attack.
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I would not rule cleric as nonassociated for Hill Giants, as it does play to the giant's strengths.
Agreed -- especially if you are simply increasing the Wis stats to cast spells.
I might be argued to do more of a 3/4 increase to CR for cleric classes. A 2nd level cleric hill giant is hardly a CR 9 character (IMO). This is definitely one of those grey areas for determining CR.
I see where my math was wrong on CR 10 it should be a CR 12 and man will it kick some A$$ for a CR 12 monster this is from Shadows of the Abyss from Dungeon 118 there is a Hill Giant Cleric in there and i am just going to change his spells to thouse 2 to make him a combat whore
This is going to fit in great with my ROTRL Adventure Path (spreading out to end at 20)
Be glad i teach the youth of america how to drive not how to add LOL
If you compare it to a 10-headed shrieking terror from the MM3, it is a close match. The 10-headed shrieking terror is CR 13 has 10 attacks at +20 and three spiecal abilities with saving throws at 24, 28, and 34.
Personally, I think the shrieking terror's CR is low.
I also think any class that can augment a monster's natural abilities should count as associated. A hill giant cleric with Quicken spell and prep a few quickened cure spells to make him even tougher in combat.
I'm going to argue its non-associated myself. Yes adding class levels to giants kicks butt. They make surprisingly good sorcerers as well since they can be fairly high level and not pay full price for that - thus becoming sorcerers with loads of hps. Still there really is something of a difference between a hil giant cleric and a hill giant Barbarian or Fighter. The Cleric sure can be good but had to buff. Has neat spells to help keep it going or support the other hill giants but can't do that and fight. Their good but I'm not sure their really comparable to a hill giant Fighter or Barbarian which really do play to their strengths.
I'm going to argue its non-associated myself. Yes adding class levels to giants kicks butt. They make surprisingly good sorcerers as well since they can be fairly high level and not pay full price for that - thus becoming sorcerers with loads of hps. Still there really is something of a difference between a hil giant cleric and a hill giant Barbarian or Fighter. The Cleric sure can be good but had to buff. Has neat spells to help keep it going or support the other hill giants but can't do that and fight. Their good but I'm not sure their really comparable to a hill giant Fighter or Barbarian which really do play to their strengths.
I agree with Jeremy here. The Hill Giant Cleric is going to spend the first two rounds of combat casting the spells to bump himself up to the level of a Hill Giant Fighter. During those two rounds he will come under attack roughly 20 times from an average party of four adventurers. On the third round he will get his attacks in OR choose to heal the average 200 points of damage he took so far. If he heals himself, the cycle starts all over again. If he fights, he gets his five attacks in, and then drops dead that same round from damage.
Over all, he lasted one more round than the average fight in a D&D game, I'd say its a good monster and I'm definitly going to steal him! :-)
I have some great tatics for him have him take a potion of invisibilty hide in the back corner cast Blade Barrier (not becoming visible no attack) seperating the fighters from the characters in the back of the room (wizards and thieves) And having Divine Power and Richious Might on you will crush one of the party members in the back while the fighters have to run themselves through a Blade Barrier to get to help the less combat heavy characters
A Hill Giant Cleric without time to buff is marginally tougher than a standard Hill Giant. If he has the chance to buff, your party better have dispel magic prepped, or he's going to be one tough fight.
Protective buffs and battlefield control are going to make a huge difference for a giant, for instance a wall of stone can "lock down" the fighters while he makes a beeline for the mage, or freedom of movement can keep his foes' battlefield control from working. Clerical domains have some helpful powers as well.
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I'm going to argue its non-associated myself.
I don't want to argue this too much, but...
Two CR 13 hill giants. One a 6th level fighter (associated class) and the other a 12th level cleric (nonassociated in theory). Both should be CR 13.
BAB for hill giant fighter -- 15
BAB for hill giant cleric -- 18
Average HP for hill giant fighter (just from the die rolls) -- 87
Average HP for hill giant cleric (just from the die rolls) -- 108
Base saving throws for hill giant fighter -- F (13), R (6), W (6)
Base saving throws for hill giant cleric -- F (16), R (8), W (12)
The cleric gets more skill points simply because he has more levels.
The cleric gets more hit points due to high Con simply because he has more levels.
The cleric gets more stat increases at every 4th level (3) as opposed to the fighter (1).
About the only thing the fighter is slightly better at is feats...
Number of feats for hill giant fighter -- 11
Number of feats for hill giant cleric -- 9
And this doesn't even include the fact that the cleric has the ability to cast spells.
Keep in mind -- I don't feel that the cleric class is fully "associated". But to say that the cleric class is entirely nonassociated feels a bit off to me as well. Run it how you want, but the two examples above pretty clearly show that they are not even close to being equal.
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I can't believe this hasn't changed. The rule really should be that the levels count 1:1 towards the CR when the levels exceed the original CR, not HD. Try your math again using that method and a Cleric 10.
According to the Monster Manual p. 294 it is HD and not CR. I don't see anything in the errata for it either.
I'm going to argue its non-associated myself.I don't want to argue this too much, but...
Two CR 13 hill giants. One a 6th level fighter (associated class) and the other a 12th level cleric (nonassociated in theory). Both should be CR 13.
BAB for hill giant fighter -- 15
BAB for hill giant cleric -- 18Average HP for hill giant fighter (just from the die rolls) -- 87
Average HP for hill giant cleric (just from the die rolls) -- 108Base saving throws for hill giant fighter -- F (13), R (6), W (6)
Base saving throws for hill giant cleric -- F (16), R (8), W (12)The cleric gets more skill points simply because he has more levels.
The cleric gets more hit points due to high Con simply because he has more levels.
The cleric gets more stat increases at every 4th level (3) as opposed to the fighter (1).About the only thing the fighter is slightly better at is feats...
Number of feats for hill giant fighter -- 11
Number of feats for hill giant cleric -- 9And this doesn't even include the fact that the cleric has the ability to cast spells.
Keep in mind -- I don't feel that the cleric class is fully "associated". But to say that the cleric class is entirely nonassociated feels a bit off to me as well. Run it how you want, but the two examples above pretty clearly show that they are not even close to being equal.
OK I see your point though this is where the difference is probably most extreme. the Cleric Hill Giant starts paying a full CR increase after this point same as the fighter and the fighter does tend to emphasize the strengths of a Hill Giant better.
Its really a bit tricky with these sorts of monsters. Ultimately a Hill Giant is not a bad sorcerer at all. 12th Level Sorcerer at CR 13 is still a 12th level Sorcerer except that the normal sorcerer weak points in hps and saving throws have been countered and you can forget grappling the sorcerer.
Why, there's nothing in 3rd edition that could stand to be improved! Nothing at all, no sir. Everything's as streamlined as it could be already.
According to the Monster Manual p. 294 it is HD and not CR. I don't see anything in the errata for it either.I wrote a great reply to this earlier and the boards ate it ... and worse I was busy at the time and didn't notice ... GRRR !!!
Yes, I know that it has not been changed. I'm arguing that it should be changed. Supporting arguments will follow later when I am not so frustrated.
Rez
I think you'd just find that this gets messy in different ways.
Why, there's nothing in 3rd edition that could stand to be improved! Nothing at all, no sir. Everything's as streamlined as it could be already.
I like to think of them as 'features'. In this case the 'feature' is screwing your players on XP while meeting the letter of the rules.
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OK I see your point though this is where the difference is probably most extreme.
It would pretty much be that way for any creature with a good amount of base hit die. Demons/Devils, giants, etc. are all ones to watch out for. The problem is that it takes a while for spellcasting to 'catch up' to the appropriate CR of the threat(s). Since most creatures are fighter based, it is pretty obvious that fighter classes are 'associated' and wizard classes are 'nonassociated' (wizard classes take far longer to improve BAB, they have the worst hit die, and they don't really get very many fighter based bonus feats). Clerics and rogues are 'half-fighters'. Even if you ignore the spell-casting abilities of clerics and ignore the special abilities of rogues, both classes still have decent hit die, decent BAB, and they have either pretty good saves (clerics) or saves that are not as common (rogue). Is it as good as a fighter? No -- the spellcasting is insignificant for quite a number of levels and the rogue's abilities are either defensive (evasion) or insignificant until higher levels (sneak attack). But because of that it makes it very 'gray' as to what the actual CR should be.
On the other hand, it seems like some of the stat blocks in some of the Dungeon adventures are pretty high. The Faceless One from The Three Faces of Evil is a 6th level human that has a 21 Int with no magic item that enhanced it. That was a pretty stellar "roll" on 3d6. Taking a look at the Hill Giant Cleric in question from Dungeon 118 --
Base Hill Giant -- Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Hill Giant Cleric -- Str 33, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 19
That's a bit more than an "elite array" for stats -- and they didn't increase the CR of the creature.
I don't really care. I just want people to understand the difference of the effect of classes on higher CR creatures.
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Ergo, when said Giant gains another Cleric level and becomes a Hill Giant Clr8 he is more dangerous as a Cleric than as a Giant. Logically, his class levels at this point should be counted 1/1 into his CR rather than remaining 1/2 for another 5 levels.
I like this. I would also like to see this compared to fighter classes and wizard classes -- but in either case it makes sense. It might break down with specific creatures, but it feels like a better guideline to me. It's hard to have a hard and fast rule when dealing with every creature in the d20 system.