Dear all,
As the previous thread trying to address the issue of railroading in STAP has gone bonkers and is all "smurfed", I will try to take up the issue *seriously* here.
Please refrain from comenting on the previous thread, let's focus on the issues. Also note that this post is full of SPOILERS.
Let it be said that I positively loved "There is No Honor" and I think that in many respects this is a perfect example of what a city-adventure should be (or even a perfect example of how free, players should be in their decision making).
The expedition to Kraken's Cove was exciting: we discovered that someone else had been there before and we tried to put the pieces back together and understand what had happened. Again a lot of freedom in the approach adopted, how to go about our exploration, trip, etc.
But my passion slowly went down after that. I had mixed feelings about the boat trip: it was like we were sitting in one place as the background pics were made to roll past us to give us the feeling that we were experiencing a travel. But in the end all we could do was wait for the next encounter to come our way so we could finally do something else than roleplay among us or with mostly plot-non-related passengers.
I had received a map of the southern seas from my DM and was painstakingly drawing our route, identifying our stopovers and timing us. I was quite statisfied with my work until I saw a similar map in Dragon Magazine with EXACTLY the same route we had been taking.
Our DM had been really good at giving us the feeling that we had some modicum of choice about the route we chose and I thank him for being succseful at giving us the impression of freedom there. But then Dragon Magazine came in and showed me that I somehow had been had: our route had been planned and foreseen from the beginning on...
A similar feeling arose after our overland trip on the Isle of Dread. It seems that it was all faux-freedom: whatever route we had chosen or tried to take we were supposed to have a certain set of encounters and go through holy stations before we reach farshore. I felt a bit deceived (for the second time).
So, after having experienced these things I started retroactively questioning past situations:
How timely was it that we arrived at the Vandenboren's Manor just in time to save Lavinia? Would she have been killed, had we been late? Or had Kabran been "waiting" in a frozen state for us to appear and start threatening the girl?
Similarly, how timely was it that we arrived on Farshore just in time to save them from Slipknot Pete and his men? Had they been waiting for us to reach the shores of Mora before launching the attack?
I have not seen the Mags so I cannot answer for this, but I had the feeling that this had been scripted by the authors and I was expected to go through these encounters and not experience the situation of "OMG I f... up, we are too late and Farshore is all ashes now...".
The DM we have is really excellent: he always comes fully prepared, with to-scale print outs of all combat areas, portraits of all NPCs (chasing well beyond the mag to give a face to ALL we would meet), pre-selected Minis for the setup and also 100% reactive on all our improvisations and spontaneous ideas: obviously very familiar with the story so he can wing it if needed.
So I am not ready to take comments that "I should change DM" or that "my DM did not do his homework": on those few weeks where he felt he was not well prepared enough, he always asked us for a reschedule! That's showing a lot of respect for his players, I think.
So I somehow share the impressions that these "overland" adventures might have been a bit too scripted and constrained. Again, I won't be able to form a definite opinion until we finish STAP and I can read the adventures, but my impression is that I saw an otherwise excellent DM become more and more constrained by the material he was given to work with.
And this brings us indeed to the writing of these adventures.
Sorry guys if I breach the usually harmonious and coddly atmosphere of these Boards, but what I saw as Player in these modules (Sea Wyvern's Wake and Here Be Monsters) gave me the impression that the work there was below the usual quality of other Dungeon adventures and far too scripted/railroady.
Bocklin
And I really do not know why I should be a smurf on the post above?
Because you used "the word."
Regarding the initial post, it almost seems as if your problem is not with Savage Tide, but with published adventures. Of course there is going to be a set course, the adventure is preplanned.
Well...
... the point of SWW is to take the party from Sasserine to Isle of Dread, and the point of HTBM is to take you from the crash site of the Sea Wyvern to Farshore. Does this make them "railroady"? Not necessarily, depending on how you define railroading. Both adventures are scripted, that's granted, but if you define railroading as the abscense of choice then it doesn't apply for them.
For example, in SWW I would look on the journey as the setting for that adventure. During the journey the players have plenty of things to keep them busy, but very few of these are forced upon them (the last storm and the crash of the SW being the most notable exception to this).
In HTBM the route from the crash site to Farshore is just one suggested by your friendly neighborhood dwarf, there are other options.
Furthermore I must say that it sounds like your DM didn't feel constrained by the frame of these two adventures. And you yourself where quite happy with the campaign until you found out that the events where scripted.
My advice to you, and everyone else that feels the same, is that sometimes you just have to relax and enjoy the ride. And the Savage Tide is one heck of a ride :) So stop overthinking everything and enjoy the bang up job your DM is doing.
Yes, some events need(ed) to be scripted for dramatic purposes. get over it already - if you hadn't read the background information, you wouldn't have known and wouldn't have cared, right ?
Perhaps I should explain that I subscribe to the school of "collaborative story-telling", meaning the GM IMHO is charged with providing an interesting story/series of events, that players/characters than bring to life - in cooperation with the GM.
Hence his job is keeping the "suspension of disbelief" alive and the entire adventure interesting, fun and suitably tense.
NEVER let the players "see" the mechanics and support structure - which, I admit, does at times require a deft hand at improvisation and above-average oratory and rhetoric skills !
It also helps if the players do NOT meta-game or take into account out-of-character information when playing... or at least not openly, ruining the sense of adventure for the others at the table.
Now, as for the STAP and its "flowchart of events"..
Many others are not - my group actually had a couple of sidetreks during the (fairly linear) SWW-voyage, because I had prepared(yeah - there are GMs who actually prepare, muahahahahaha ) a couple of "incidents" to use instead of the ones presented in the SWW adventure, or to use if they meandered of the necessary course too far. And even the ones that I used they played in a different fashion and rythm...
But - that encounter need never happen at all (!) in the first place, its an optional event to be used by the GM. It providees nothing to the story but fun, experience and a possibility for treasure.
While other encounters have to happen, in a certain way, to faciliate the unfolding story.
Like the initial fight at Farshore in ToD - which sets the stage for .. "later events", let it rest at that, shall we ( no idea how far you have progressed ) .
As for the "siege of the manor" in BWG - now that one can be played (and specific hints are provided to just that effect in the adventure itself ) in many different ways, depending on the players' timing. Although not every GM reads the material provided with the necessary attention - a friend of mine "railroaded" his players into fighting the in place siege, despite them making the homeward journey in record time... bad GMing, and yes his group was grumpy about it, as the "suspension of disbelief" was wrecked by that.
But basically - that is a "cornerstone" encounter that can be run rather differently according to the characters' actions
Sometimes, player actions even force the GM to re-adapt the coming installments to their actions
Experienced and circumspect GMs do precisely that - others realize a bit too late and need to fall back on either their "bluff" skill or have to improvise... to keep the story's narrative "cornerstones" feasible and valid.
But that is the GM's job - adapt the written adventure to your group and their actions, if necessary at a moments notice. And this is what separates good GMs (who never even blink if the players do something.. unexpected) from the less skillful ones ( who resort to railroading - please note, this is NOT the fault of the Adeventure's designer but of the specific GM - or halt the game to rewrite the up-coming scenes.
Basically a good GM pre-reads the material provided, designs alternate ways of establishing necessary informations, clues and items and consider how one's group's composition affects the encounter's course.
Even an excellent pre-written adventure is NEVER a perfect fit for your group (or even it seems to be atm with yet four levels to go, it might not be anymore if you get there laters....).
Any pre-written adventure needs some basic, pre-arranged encounters and scenes.... a "set-off" (from the clichee "messenger in the tavern" ), an "exposition" (to tell the characters - and the audience players - what is actually/supposedly happening) and an appropriately dramatic finale ( to provide a sense of closure... or grand failure =) ). It's in the nature of the game.,,
The STAP is a long, drawn out epic, and certain events need to happen, to bolster and prime the narrative, the "cornerstones" mentioned above. That is not rail-roading, that is story-telling.
Anything in between those "cornerstones" can be as free-form as the GM likes and the group can deal with.
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This was something I tried to touch upon in the other thread.
My advice is play the game and make the important choices as you have the opportunity to make them.
If you want to spoil things for yourself by reading the adventures afterwards, that is your choice. That doesn't sound nice. Actually, what I mean to say is reading additional material about the adventure after you're finished with it may diminish your experience rather than add to it. That said, if you feel like your in-game choices are making a difference as you are playing, then enjoy that as you can. Give yourself the satisfaction of knowing that you did what you felt you needed to do at the time, because that is what RPGing is about.
Think of this situation: You're sent to scout some enemy barbarian stronghold. Along the way, you encounter some wild animals, maybe some magical beasts, but eventually you run into a barbarian scouting party. One of them gets away. Now you're being tracked and pursued. Do you retreat, or try to get to the stronghold to scout it from a distance? You decide to stay. Eventually the encounters become too much to handle, and you're captured instead of killed. As you're sitting waiting in your cell, someone on the inside releases you and tells you she's a spy (female agents are cooler). So now, on the inside, not only can you scout, you might even be able to make a significant difference.
And it turns out all this time, that is exactly how the DM planned it. The only REAL choice you had was whether or not you stayed. You decided to stay to complete the mission. That's pretty important. The rest of the situation gave you small opportunities to make important choices (what do I do this round? Do I speak or swing? Do I surrender or die fighting? Will this action delay the inevitable or speed it up?). The important thing is, how did it feel when you were experiencing it? And naturally, the DM has to expect himself to alter the plan fairly as necessary (if you leave no tracks to follow, how can they find you? What if you left instead of staying? What if you don't accept the agent's help?).
At the same time, instead of just treating it as the DM having it planned, you could just as easily accept it as a realistic situation. Of course you're going to be tracked - they're barbarians. They attack in hordes, so of course larger numbers would be sent against you. And they have enemies, so naturally there could be a spy in their midst. (The navigators determined the best path to the Isle of Dread via their skills. A hydra was in that pool, so of course it was going to attack when someone went near its lair).
You seem to be mis-understanding exactly what an "Adventure Path" is. It is not a free-form/detailed setting where the DM develops/relates everything depending on the choices of the PCs. It is a coherent narrative linking a variety of events, locations, and NPCs into an overarching plotline.
Because the APs are coherent narratives, they make certain assumptions regarding the likely PC choices and develop the adventures to account for them. The fact that the designers were smart enough to determine the shortest course for travel to the Isle or from the crash site to Farshore and concentrate on developing encounters along that route is not "railroading" as much as focusing on essentials. Sure, they could have developed/detailed more areas/locations, but if they are perepheral to the main plotline or adventure flow they would likely be unused with most groups. Space constraints in published adventures mean that essential elements are developed and perepheral elements are cut or receive a bare mention for the DM to expand on if needed.
I'm kind of wondering if you really would have made other decisions, and if you'd really be having more fun if you could absolutely do whatever you want to. My impression is that you're disappointed because there is a script, not because of the actual way the game has been played, and it has made you wary of feeling tricked into doing things.
However you said you enjoy your dm's style and enjoyed the first two adventures. Are you aware that those are scripted too? Scripted doesn't mean 'the pcs have to do all this or nothing happens'. It just means that the dm arranges things to offer certain kinds of choices. This actually makes the game more fun for everyone. I think if you read "The Bullywug Gambit" you'd be surprised to find that there is a definite script.
Scripting isn't bad. You just saw behind the curtain, but my advice would be don't read material on the AP you're playing in if you want to fully enjoy it. Let everything be a surprise. Your DM sounds like he's doing a great job, and it sounds like you guys were also playing really well. Don't sell yourself short and think "well I didn't really DO anything as it turns out." When I read "Here be Monsters" I thought "this will be challenging to run and to play through." If you got your character through it it was through creativity and quick thinking (and a little luck).
I suggest the cure for your beefs would be to DM your own campaign. Be prepared to handle everything on the fly, have no set story arc, do not pregenerate encounters, keep your players happy and engaged no matter which direction they zag at any time.
Or, you can realize it is a game that is scripted, not too unlike a tv show or movie. If you want complete freedom of choice, try life.
Mr Fish's commentary is spot-on. Ideally, one can run the STAP to come across as a 'free choice' type of adventure. However, nosy players can rain on thier own parade, which would shatter the illusion, as several have done on these boards alone.
I've not perused the AoW I'm playing in, as a courtesy to my GM. Sure, I could - but I'm not going to, even though it is well within my resources to snatch up the material for 'intelligence gathering' purposes. Deny that curiosity - make that Will save! - and refrain from further perusal, even turn down the GMs 'behind the curtain' moments. You'll enjoy the Tide much more if you do. :)
Hate to break this to you, but an ap can't be open ended. There are certain goals that have to be achieved or the story doesn't move forward, Period! And as far as all the good stuff happens right when the heros get there to save the day...Welcome to fantasy adventure! If everything has always happened before you arrived, it wouldn't be D&D... it would be CSI. I hate to break this to you, but you are being really unfair to your DM. You went into the AP knowing that it wasn't free form, and now that seems to be your complaint. If you haven't DMed before, let me tell you a little secret...It's ALOT of work! Using Moduals and the APs is the only way some DMs have time play. and free form D&D takes either alot of prep, or a DM that can rattle stat blocks off the top of their head, and can roll fast with the punches. And the latter is damn hard to find.
Of course you're getting railroaded, there's a plot to follow with an inevitable outcome. Otherwise all twelve games don't mesh.
(...) My impression is that you're disappointed because there is a script, not because of the actual way the game has been played, and it has made you wary of feeling tricked into doing things. (...) You just saw behind the curtain, but my advice would be don't read material on the AP you're playing in if you want to fully enjoy it. Let everything be a surprise. Your DM sounds like he's doing a great job, and it sounds like you guys were also playing really well.(...)
Hi MrFish,
Thanks for the comments. It is a very interesting point...
But considering that I did not see anything that a player was not meant to see (i.e. the map is from Dragon magazine and the other maps or indications I have come from handouts or in-game play), I am now wondering: maybe "No Honor" and "Bullywug's Gambit" are scripted and linear but it did not show. For the two following adventures the ropes and wires were showing quite a bit, and since I did not change DM between adventures, I tend to think that it is maybe because of how the adventures were written?
Thanks to some of the others for the constructive comments. I'll go over some of the answers now.
Bocklin
I noticed Dragon's propesity to include WAY too much detail for the players. If I were the DM for the adventure path, they would not be allowed to see those maps or be able to read a lot of the material therein.
He actually asked us not to read them until he "greenlights" some of them. Which I did. I do not remember if I saw the map in the mag after it became greenlighted or as an handout during gameplay.
You can always request the DM not run prefabbed adventures.
But that's not my point at all!! We never had problems with published adventures. The group (before I joined) even went through most of SCAP and **ALL** of AoW and enjoyed it really a lot. Mind you: I loved and enjoyed "There is no honor" and "Bullywug's Gambit".
It's just that my enjoyment of "Sea Wyvern's Wake" and "Here Be Monsters" were somehow reduced because the thinking and assumptions of the author(s) were showing so much through the adventure... (i.e. what I meant with "seeing the ropes and wires").
I don't have a problem with published adventures, but I was just expressing my disapointment at the linearity of these two. We are now going through "Tides of Dread" (I think; not sure where which starts and which ends) and it seems to get better, but I have not seen enough yet.
Bocklin
The STAP is a long, drawn out epic, and certain events need to happen, to bolster and prime the narrative, the "cornerstones" mentioned above. That is not rail-roading, that is story-telling.
Anything in between those "cornerstones" can be as free-form as the GM likes and the group can deal with.
Hi Vinkingson,
Sorry, I skipped most of your post for fear of reading spoilers, but I like this last sentence of yours and would like to use it to show exactly where my problem lies:
Of course RPG is not life (thanks for the witty remark, Golden Katana: so useful...) and some of the events are planned in advance, the threats are determined by the author, etc.
But, as a player, I want to be offered quite a bit of freedom about how I solve the problems, how I go from A to B and how I get along the storyline.
Usually, my experience with Paizo publications is that they give you quite a good deal of freedom to do so and to choose how to handle the problem given. What I still consider a perfect example of this is "There is No Honor".
And I agree that "departure of Sasserine", "Discovering the Zozilaha statuette" and "reaching farshore" (e.g.) are necessary steps to the story-telling of the STAP Epic.
But my impression (with the two adventures mentioned) is that they did not give me much choice about how to move between these stations or how to handle the trip. Even worse, it turns out that my impression of scripting and railroading in the text itself are confirmed by the posters here (most of whom just happen to find it okay).
Bocklin
Bocklin,
An interesting dilemma to be sure. Personally, I'm doing my level best to mush my crews from Sasserine to the Isle of Dread as fast as possible without necessarily depriving them of any freedom of choice. Crew 1, for example, elected to hand over navigation duties to the NPC in question, simplifying things enormously and facilitating a rapid playing through of the Sea Wyvern's Wake.
In principle, and after considered thought since your first post, I would conclude that indeed the SWW Chapter serves to primarily get the party to the Isle. Given the word/page count limits, the numerous side scenario-seeds abound (the Hopping Prophet, Tamoachan, the burned lifeless ditch o' big dead apes, the long-burned ruins of the last port on the mainland peninsula) all beg for further development at the group's behest and/or a GM's whim.
Almost the entire chapter could be re-written to the last few days of the trip with ease. The slaad chest-bursters out (with the bat idol in that NPCs belongings), Rowyn Kellani takes her last attempt at revenge (if she survived the PCs ministrations the first go 'round) and the shipwrecking storm are the only really essential elements of the SWW - and a malevolent twist to all of that could be, for example, to have them happen during the worst of the storms that wreck the Sea Wyvern! All the rest are gravy, albiet ones which can grant much-needed xp and swag to the player characters. The checks to navigate to the Isle and not getting lost are readily handled by the 'take 10' mechanic of the game as well - as long as either a PC or the pertinent NPCs can make the DC with taking 10, the trip goes as scheduled.
In a way, I wish I had thought of that for Crew 1 prior to this past session myself ... hrm ...
Creative Director
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Adventure Paths are a learning experience for us here at Paizo, no matter how many we do. For a few adventures in Savage Tide, we tried out some very story-heavy adventures; namely, Sea Wyvern's Wake and Here There Be Monsters. It would have probbly been a better idea to space these two out rather than put them back to back, but at the same point, they fit so well together and advanced the storyline so well that we did it anyway.
It's certainly worth noting that despite the recent claims that these two adventures are "railroady," there's even more threads scattered throghout the boards here and on other boards that praise them for their plotlines. Namely, not every adventure can be to everyone's taste. Savage Tide (and all adventure paths we do) are in most part my attempts to bring a campaign to the reader that I like and that, based on reactions, mail, and reviews of previous adventures we've done, I suspect they'll like. It's a constantly evolving process.
But at the same time, a good chunk of the responsiblity DOES lie in the DM's hands as well. He knows his party in ways that the adventure's writers and editors cannot, and he knows what parts won't go over well with his group. I myself have cut out significant portions or changed parts of Savage Tide for my home group. A friend of mine cut out the end of Sea Wyvern and all of Here there be Monsters because he knew his group wasn't interested in a shipwreck scenario (he instead ran some other adventures until the PCs got "caught up" to Tides of Dread). In Erik Mona's Age of Worms campaign, there are entire subplots and distractions that are themselves as big as the pre-written adventures.
You have to be willing to change and adapt if you run a pre-written adventure. That's actually the major advantage tabletop RPGs have over computer RPGs, in fact—the ability to react and customize to fit the particular needs and desires of those playing the game.
That said, these threads have certainly pointed out an area of concern in adventure paths to me. In Pathfinder, the extra room and additional support material is going a LONG way toward making the adventures a lot less railroady. I actully fear that in a few places of Rise of the Runelords things are TOO open, and TOO up to the PCs to set the direction of play (as in leaving some key adventure hooks later on to the PCs to generate/discover on their own). Time will tell if they're too much or too little!
The STAP is a long, drawn out epic, and certain events need to happen, to bolster and prime the narrative, the "cornerstones" mentioned above. That is not rail-roading, that is story-telling.
Anything in between those "cornerstones" can be as free-form as the GM likes and the group can deal with.Hi Vinkingson,
Sorry, I skipped most of your post for fear of reading spoilers, but I like this last sentence of yours and would like to use it to show exactly where my problem lies:
Don't worry, I am very particular as to spoilers - hence the "spoiler" buttons.
But, as a player, I want to be offered quite a bit of freedom about how I solve the problems, how I go from A to B and how I get along the storyline.Usually, my experience with Paizo publications is that they give you quite a good deal of freedom to do so and to choose how to handle the problem given. What I still consider a perfect example of this is "There is No Honor".
And I agree that "departure of Sasserine", "Discovering the Zozilaha statuette" and "reaching farshore" (e.g.) are necessary steps to the story-telling of the STAP Epic.
But my impression (with the two adventures mentioned) is that they did not give me much choice about how to move between these stations or how to handle the trip. Even worse, it turns out that my impression of scripting and railroading in the text itself are confirmed by the posters here (most of whom just happen to find it okay).
Bocklin
Well - basically, there is very little in the SWW-installment that tells you what route etc. to go. Given the lay of the land (Greyhawk, eberron or Faerun ) mostly determines that - and the information on travel speed etc. is wildly off reality anyway. The GM is basically free to run SWW any which way he likes, meeting only two goals - touching the "cornerstones" (and well, if they don't ind the statue in Tamoachan, there are even redundancy suggestions for that ) and having the characters earn enough XP on route to keep them happy and preparing them for the perils on the Isle of Dread.
Anything else comes down to GM skill and level of zeal - will he run several encounters he/she has designed himself, or will he used the pre-written ones (which have their strengths and weaknesses ). basically, the stuff is "pre-written random encounters" - just add players and stir...
Some GMs (mostly those with several campaigns behind them, often running or participiating in others beide their own ) find making up the necessary stuff much easier or even very enjoyable... E.g. our group - pretty naval minded, spend a lot of time on building up the "Sea Wyvern", which made me draw up some encounters specifically aimed at that aspect - a giant mutated octopus taking an interest in their copper sheating as "foodstuff", wind-spirits riding a storm front which had to be pacified and negotiated with etc etc.
A friends group (more gothic minded types) encountered a ghost ship which provided some moody sessions. Another friends - by now stopped campaign - had the nefarious players engage in piracy on the trip..
BUT - all of that is fluff, a GM's choice and can hardly be expected of Paizo, who have to keep all types of groups happy. They just cannot realistically write all that stuff into the limited few pages of a print magazine. But a caring GM will expand the stuff, or at least present it in such a way as that the "ropes and pulleys" don't show
As for the information provided in "Dragon" etc.. Well, that is player responsibility. If I feel that I cannot really separate player knowledge and character knowledge, and hence have my enjoyment suffering from that... why should I read on ? Everyone bears a certain degree for his own fun at the table and hence should act accordingly ( I once had a player who expected everyone else to make him happy at the table... he didn't last long ).
As for "player freedom" - I have rarely seen an adventure and AP which has provided a similar degree of freedom to the groups involved as STAP and SWW and ToD. "HtbM" is a bit less free, if only because it need an athmospheric build-up for the moody finale. And the antagonist is certainly capable of a variety of tactics to achieve just taht, despite clever player actions - in fact, he is one of the most discussed phenomenons on this board
'nuff typed... good Luck with the AP, but, in all honesty, for solutions of your problems, look to your GM and possibly your own habits and temptations.
Contributor
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I'll shoot out a quick question- Did any of the PCs have any skills to assist in the steering or navigation? Profession: Sailor or Knowledge: Geography? The course plotted was what the NPCs in charge would do if left to their own devices. Did you try to change directions?
As for the overland, did you try another course? If you simply did what the NPCs suggested, why are you surprised this is what was scripted? That is, after all, the whole point of running printed adventures.
I mentioned this before, but pretty much any published adventure is somewhat scripted. Though they do there best to write material for the most likely course of action the PCs take, and tend to nudge them in that direction. That doesn't mean things always work out as planned. My Savage Tide campaign has deviated plenty from the script. I will say that SWW and Here there be Monsters are very linear and the deviations didn't occur so much in those adventures. However linear is the nature of an adventure that involves a trip from point A-B.
The following are some ways that my campaign deviated.
There is No Honour
Sea Wyverns Wake
Tides of Dread
Lightless Depths
I agree that the two adventures are a bit railroady. Essentially their 'road' adventures and those are the most rail roady ones around - you proceed down the road and bump into pretty much every encounter along the way.
This sort of thing spells trouble unless the DM actually recognizes the trouble before wandering into it - and chances are the DM does not recognize this sort of thing until its actually happened once or twice - then one hopes that experience kicks and and its recognized before it causes problems. Furthermore the writers probably had not really focused specifically on this issue and maybe if they had things might run a tad smoother.
In both adventures there is actually a fair bit of opportunity for characters to make meaningful choices, probably at least as many meaningful choices as a character truly gets to make in say a dungeon crawl. But the 'stage' upon which the characters get to make those choices and the kinds of choices being made has changed.
SWW is really all about the ship. Their are interesting NPCs on that ship and there are some nefarious going ons aboard that ship. The players pretty much have the freedom to do whatever they want on the ship itself and its up to them to interact with the NPCs and hopefully uncover the nefarious plot. There are near automatic encounters they will also bump into along the way that will further the overall plotline or just add some verity and excitement.
I feel that this adventure would work best if the DM focuses on the ship itself and not on the choices about where its going - the players already know where its going but otherwise their just along for the ride. I'd think in the best sort of circumstance the ship should play out a little like Murder on the Orient Express and the players should, hopefully be so engrossed with the happenings aboard the ship (and the sub plots) that they never come to think of this as a road adventure at all where they do nothing until an encounter comes over the horizon and then they deal with that. Think of it like this - the ship is the Dungeon, or sandbox in which the players get to play. They just happen to have a map of it.
Now I'm not saying that the adventure, as written, managed to convey this. Some of that is the DMs fault for not recognizing it and making sure the players were excited by the 'stage' they did get to make meaningful choices on and not focusing on the 'stage' they can't make choices on. Some of the fault lies at the writers feet. There where interesting things going on, on this ship, but maybe the fact that the focus should be on the ship was not spelled out well enough and probably one of these sub plot encounters should have been cut and the word count used for more ship board sub plots to insure that the game never had a chance to devolve into - so you sit around twiddling your thumbs waiting for something exciting to appear on the horizon.
All of this being said a big part of the problem is your playing in what might well be the 'bleeding edge' of adventure design. There is no manual for how to write this stuff and, unlike a dungeon, there are not 50 other examples one can read and pick and choose the best elements. The writers are still learning how to present this type of material in the best way possible.
However I do have a couple of beefs with some story elements.
I also have a beef with how the Crimson Fleet is running things. Why are they sailing around delivering these pearls? They have demons in their service. It would be infinitely faster to have the demons teleport to the Isle of Dread and then teleport the pearls to where they need to go. Loading them on a ship is a slow and risky means of transporting such important items.
Check out the alternate modules thread--I have my own thoughts on this.
Dear all,
So I somehow share the impressions that these "overland" adventures might have been a bit too scripted and constrained. Again, I won't be able to form a definite opinion until we finish STAP and I can read the adventures, but my impression is that I saw an otherwise excellent DM become more and more constrained by the material he was given to work with.
SWW and HTBM are some train rides. Your DM has done good job, you didn't even know until you checked things out in the magazines. I bet your DM has done this to you a ton of times with out you knowing it. In my opinion, creating the illusion of freedom is part of the art of Dming. Ask yourself did you enjoy the game? Because what is important in playing D&D is having fun. If you didn't enjoy these adventures, tell your Dm, obviously the STAP adventure path isn't your game. If your having fun(sure sounds like you are), then enjoy the game, don't read up on the adventures after you play them, so you do not see the railroad tracks as it were.
No need to apologize, this is the way you approach such an issue on the Paizo boards. The guy yesterday who brought up this issue, came in picking A fight. He called the paizo community "playerless Dm fan bois". People here really feel a part of a community and are very loyal to Paizo and each other. Check out the off topic section, especially "what sucks" and "good things" threads, people share their lives here. Check out the web section and the thread Lord of the Boards lend me your ears, it is a thread where posters are apologizing for being rude and pledgeing to be more nice and inviting to new posters. Really does this kind of stuff happen anywhere else on the internet.
And I really do not know why I should be a smurf on the post above?
Smurf is what smurf does. If you smurf arround expect to be smurfed.
Here There Be Monsters
Wow - what an excellent title. I think the title here is also speaking to us a little about some of the aspects of this adventure. The players are shipwrecked on an island of extreme danger and one hopes that feeling permeates the adventure and distracts the players somewhat from the fact that they are on a road adventure.
This one really is a road adventure as well, there is no real way to envision it as a mobile dungeon. Now in truth its possible to bypass this adventure - possibly, if you DM lets you but thats not really a good plan in any case. Its a good adventure but I think that some aspects might be improved.
The first thing that comes to mind is that this would not be such a straight ahead road adventure if there were more red shirts around. Wandering down the road is a lot less straightforward and mundane if your trying to lead a few dozen bedraggled survivors through forbidding and hostile terrain. That focuses the players away from twiddling their thumbs waiting for something to come over the horizon and makes it into a situation where they are focused on the defense of the survivors and dealing with the pitfalls that bar their path. The dangers are the same but the stakes have changed. The players can handle themselves - thats why they are adventurers, but the red shirts can't and the players must try and protect them and get as many to Farshore as possible.
Adding red shirts also helps with the first part of this adventure or maybe its the last part of SWW. The problem with the gathering storm is in part that it totally ignores the players skills and such. Better I think to have some sort of mechanism that rewards them for having swimming and profession (sailor) etc. I'd do it along the lines of being able to save a minimum of X number of crew and passengers and retrieve Y amount of supplies and goods as a minimum and then for every point of skill X a character has adds something to these figures. Obviously its still up to the DM to make sure that this is not just a skill counting exercise by giving examples of how the skill is being used. "Hurdar's Rope Skill is being put to use as he lashes down anything and anyone in sight. He's like a madman with rope!" but this would help to get the characters to feel that their character choices matter.
Note however that this will change the tune of the adventure in some unexpected ways - for example that baby dinosaur that gets saved early in the adventure starts to look like some good eating if you have 30 mouthes to feed.
Also running dozens of red shirts will require some organization. In the best case scenario you turn over actually running them to your players but if your players don't want the hassle one of the NPCs should be able to do all the mundane stuff if the PCs can protect them from the more extra ordinary stuff. Don't get to crazy with the class levels etc. Most of the red shirts should be the same so that running them is easy. Also rewarding the players based on how many people they can get to Farshore will make them stop thinking of them as cannon fodder and start thing them as more valuable. You can skim the excess treasure off from other locations over the next few adventures. Because of the way rewards rise you can probably do it and not even be noticed.
Beyond this I'd stick to the focus of what was presented in the adventure. The initial part should be dealing with the Dinosaurs. Their definitely interesting creatures. Beautiful and dangerous. Their is a reason why the Jurassic Park movies are so popular, If one try's to get that feel more into their game it might not seem like such a dull road adventure and more like a safari. Rent Walking with Dinosaurs for inspiration.
After a brief puzzle solving encounter that plays up on Olmec Ruins we head for a different stage of the campaign. That Gargoyle encounter should play more like a spooky chase scene then a road encounter. If the Gargoyle just charges in and is then wasted by the players then I think it misses the point. If there are red shirts they should develop an unexpected tendency to be picked off by the thing.
Demigorgon's Thrall should play similarly. but more brazenly. Here is where frontal assault by an enemy using hit and run tactics will play well. The puzzle in this complex probably should be eliminated. It slows things up at the wrong time.
I'd think these additions should just about do it in terms of making this feel a little less like a road adventure - note that it still is but if you strip out the plot and strip out the encounters then every adventure that involves going from point A to Point B is a road adventure.
hmm, I somehow expect any halfway honourable group (aka "good" or image-minded ) trying to rescue as many of the crew and passengers, if only because it is the decent thing to do.
After all, isn't that quite the archetypal heroic thing to do - helping the meek and hapless ?
That was the only part in HtbM I really disliked "everyone is dead but XYZ" - and it went out of the window that very moment !
I mean, after all, it is not really required for the plot to have everyone and the cat drown...
In my experience, it's really hard to manage so many NPCs. After a while, even players will start to talk about "Sailor #4" which will dehumanize them a little.
Quite on the opposite - the fact that they had names ( Ityped thema list and short identifying backstory , nothing more than two or three sentences - when they hired everyone and boarded the "Wyvern".
The crew having names and identifying trademarks really meant that the players flinched at every crewmember lost, because these guys had become "faces"... pulled out by me (as the GM) every now and then with a trademark reply or scene, then fading in the background again.
Since two characters opted for the leadership feat, these guys became quite naturally their first and most hard-core followers later on.
Then again, I used to GM "Ars Magica" for a dozen years, and am used to handle and keep memorable masses of "grog"NPCs from that - and so is the group (which partially played AM as well ).
Thanks James for sharing your thoughts on this (and to others as well for contributing to the reflection).
As I am still playing STAP I'll withdraw from the thread here: I don't want to click on these "spoilers" buttons (so I can't really take part in the exchanges) and without actually reading the mags I am anyway missing too much info to make a really informed decision on the topic.
As mentioned, we are now playing on the Isle of Dread and that's much more "freeform" than the trip to get there. So I am happy that the "train ride" is behind us and we can kick around and explore the island to our whim.
Have fun gaming!
Bocklin
Well, like I said, in my experience. My players started losing track of the extra names, since I had basically a list of all of the 22-23 crewmembers.
....
In "Here There Be Monsters," the x number of NPCs mentioned in adventure is pretty much the right amount. Even then, people kept forgetting that Tavey wasn't a full fighter, but a young boy.
hmm rather interesting - obviously your peeps tick entirely different from my bunch... Anyone who doesn't have a name quickly becomes relegated to "red-short" status... If they "know" somebody, they start to care.
As for Tavey - does anyone know whether he is a boy or girl or.... else ? That illustration really send our group spinning with ambiguous jokes and hare-brained schemes.... and after Olangru was 'done' with Tavey, there was no way of ever finding out anymore.
Have fun Bocklin. Sorry for your period of frustration but hopefully things will pick up from here.
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Looking back on the two adventures (I've already ran them) I'd agree there are some railroad elements. However, they are at least dramatic railroads. Namely the two that stick out are Journey's End and the shipwreck.
For the SWW I highly recommend that the PCs are in charge of the ship. When I started the campaign I provided 4 extra 'occupation' skill points for professions and knowledges and did make clear that nautical elements would be prominent. So one PC was the Captain and the other the Navigator. The NPCs for those roles became aides of sorts to the PCs for those tasks.
The NPC cast goes a long way to keep the journey interesting and unexpected events flowing. For instance, the Avner character underwent a lot of changes as the cleric was intent on 'rehabilitating' the cad and making a hero out of him. It took a long time and many attempts but ultimately Avner did become a better person and even figured prominently in the defense of Farshore against the pirates in TOD.
Journey's End is unavoidable but my player's did enjoy that section a great deal. The creepiness of the situation and finding the source of the problem gave them enough hooks to go along with it.
The shipwreck was tweaked slightly as the party was responsible for navigating the ship so they could at least beach it near the shore and keep the damage to a minimum (making the restoration of it easier once they obtained supplies from Farshore). The party still felt their actions were influencing the outcome of the event.
As for HTBM when I ran it the players spent along time conferring on the beach as to what to do. They talked about building rafts, heck even hangliders. In the end they did take the overland route (mainly because the cleric was tired of sinking in water with his full-plate). So again I felt my players had choices and options.
Overall it really depends on the group and the DM's willingness to improvise, embellish the written material and keep the game enjoyable. Both of these adventures were amongst my favourites to run in the path though TOD was probably my favourite.
The crew having names and identifying trademarks really meant that the players flinched at every crewmember lost, because these guys had become "faces"... pulled out by me (as the GM) every now and then with a trademark reply or scene, then fading in the background again.
I named the crew and Avner's two attendants. It does make a difference. Players in my game take the time to mention npcs by name even taking time to talk to such npcs.
I named the crew and Avner's two attendants. It does make a difference. Players in my game take the time to mention npcs by name even taking time to talk to such npcs.
The crew having names and identifying trademarks really meant that the players flinched at every crewmember lost, because these guys had become "faces"... pulled out by me (as the GM) every now and then with a trademark reply or scene, then fading in the background again.
Absolutely makes a differnece. Actually our group did it themselves,. because it seemed (and proved to be) so much more fun to breath some life into the guys (and gals). Also made us far more motivated to protect them in the Hydra fight (although we lost two rowers there ) and later during the shipwreck itself.
And yes, we were pretty grumpy when some stalwart crew were killed off in the breakers off the Isle, like our much beloved "polynesian dwarvin" chef or the passenger family of dwarven brewers was reduced to only the wife - now the "widdow" Haffnerrock. Makes the roleplaying much more substantial and fun.Of course, recommended only if you are in for the roleplaying not the hacking =)
Thanks James for sharing your thoughts on this (and to others as well for contributing to the reflection).
As I am still playing STAP I'll withdraw from the thread here: I don't want to click on these "spoilers" buttons (so I can't really take part in the exchanges) and without actually reading the mags I am anyway missing too much info to make a really informed decision on the topic.
As mentioned, we are now playing on the Isle of Dread and that's much more "freeform" than the trip to get there. So I am happy that the "train ride" is behind us and we can kick around and explore the island to our whim.
Have fun gaming!
Bocklin
And the same to you and Haldefast, Bocklin. May you both enjoy your future adventures in the Savage Tide!
Check out the alternate modules thread--I have my own thoughts on this.
This kind of a post should probably include a link to the relevant thread so that one can follow you to the topic. While its possible to search out the thread thats putting a fair bit of the work of finding this onto the other posters. Beyond that its perfectly possible for a thread like this to remain active while the thread being referred to falls down the list and heads for the archives meaning that it can become increasingly difficult for some one who might be interested to go and check it out.
hmm, I somehow expect any halfway honourable group (aka "good" or image-minded ) trying to rescue as many of the crew and passengers, if only because it is the decent thing to do.
After all, isn't that quite the archetypal heroic thing to do - helping the meek and hapless ?
Sure but it does not hurt to make the players care beyond just 'I care because my character would'. Giving them some kind of stake in keeping as many NPCs alive as possible is not absolutely necessary but I think of it as helping to 'grease the wheels' of having the heros be heroic and throw themselves in front of the rampaging monster in a desperate attempt to save the Red Shirt.
Sometimes it can be hard to make sub-optimal choices on the combat grid when mechanically the best option is to treat the NPC the same as one might treat a summoned monster. I've bumped into this with followers when a player has taken leadership. One does not exactly think of their character as being the type to sacrifice individuals but once this is on a grid its dangerously easy to slip into a mode of thinking where the minor followers or Red Shirts etc. become something like pawns who's best role is to be sacrificed for tactical advantage.
In my experience, it's really hard to manage so many NPCs. After a while, even players will start to talk about "Sailor #4" which will dehumanize them a little.
With four NPCs, it's just enough for everyone to remember names, but plenty enough to show a range of reactions to events and PC actions.
Good point.
I think whether 'More Red Shirts' is the answer to the railroady feel of this adventure depends on the gaming style of your group.
Essentially I think we can divide player groups into two categories. Now its possible there are more categories but these are the two I have had experience with and I think their the most common categories.
Basically a DM has to ask him/herself why it is that their players plunk down at the table every week. If your players spend most of their game time talking in character and love talking with NPCs then you've got a more story orientated group. In this case your golden on this adventure. Four NPCs is plenty for the players to interact with and the various scenes along the way are probably going to be fine because the excitement of the game will be interacting with the NPCs and dealing with their various reactions when the challenges appear over the horizon. These players are more interested in the NPCs then the mechanics of the adventure and thats great.
However if your players spend most of their gaming time talking out of character with each other while they plot how to overcome the challenges the adventure throws their way then you've got more of a problem. These groups are going to interact with the NPCs and 'drain' them of interesting and useful information. After that, well their just NPCs. Sure their characters will protect them and such because thats what heroic PCs do but they don't really provide a focus for the adventure. This kind of playing style focuses on mechanics and challenges and the 'fun' comes when the players out think the adventure and overcome interesting obstacles. Lots of opportunities for the players to make choices concerning the problem at hand is critical in keeping these players interested. Sure there should be a cool story to hang this all from but the story is less about what NPCs do and more about the player group itself.
For this style of gaming the DM needs to present the players with an interesting challenge for them to overcome on their way to Farshore. Here is were Red Shirts are the answer. Protecting lots of Red Shirts is an interesting challenge worthy of this groups time. Sure the DM should make sure that these NPCs have as much 'character' as possible - thats just good DMing. Some should be more developed then others like, for example the four main NPCs but the DM is not going to keep his players focused on these NPCs since they spend most of their time playing out of character anyway. For this group managing to 'overcome' the Isle of Dread and get 2/3rds of the crew safely to Farshore will be the capstone of the adventure. For this style of gaming numbers count. Its how they tally up whether their 'winning' (i.e. successfully overcoming challenges). Here saving lots of NPCs is more important then saving a few more detailed NPCs. When this group looks back on this adventure it will be to reminisce about how many people they saved and not what the NPCs names are.
Note that they don't even have to 'win' for this adventure to be a success for this group. Losings just as good, it does not really matter much if your players are talking about how they managed to save almost every NPC or whether their conversation is more like:
PLAYER A: Remember that Dinosaur Island where we had to save all those NPCs?
PLAYER B: Oh God, that was brutal, the dinosaurs ate everybody - it was a f#%@ing massacre!
PLAYER C: Yeah - I think we finally managed to save, like two NPCs. Some mouthy chic and that annoying Gnome.
Player A: Damn that Gnome really was annoying. I told you guys we should have just let the teleporting Ape keep him, but would anyone listen to me...no of course not and Samantha lost her cleric fighting the bad demon statue in Ape Boys lair. Not worth it man.
PLAYER C: Dude, I think we had no choice but to go into that place. Remember we could not find our way out of the mist until after we killed Ape Boy. I think he controlled the mist.
etc.